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> Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer?
Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer?
@ 03:44 pm (GMT) |
Jake long[b]I have been reading and reading forum after forum and stumbled onto this site. Excellent info and layout. Looks like a lot more real life data then a bunch of paper punchers. Anyways, I'm looking at buying or building a long range 600yd, light weight elk killer. I love my 7mm mag custom, 168 bergers, 70grn retumbo combo but damn thing is over 10lbs. It drops them stone cold dead though. I like the 6.5, 270wsm, 7mmwsm, or 300wsm. Will be running Nosler LR, Bergers, or another frangible bullet.Thanks in advance for the help Jake |
Replies
@ 07:59 pm (GMT) |
Martin TaylorRe: Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer?Quote: Quote: Bryan, thanks for the input. The more I read Nathan's book, the more confused I'm getting. The majority of my hunting is week long backcountry stuff where weight is a major concern. However, if I need to shoot 600 yards I want that option. Thinking a smaller caliber like a 6.5 would give me the range, low recoil, and ability to shoot accurately in a lite weight set up. Then I think about just loading lighter bullets in the 300 wsm to achieve the same concept. I like the 270 wsm but can get a 7 rm for only 3 ounces more. However, according to my reading a lite weight mag is not a good idea. My brain is going to explode. lol
Happy thanksgiving everyone Jake Get fitter, get stronger, carry a rifle of suitable weight for calibre. You want to start shooting animals a long way out ? do it ethically and use heavy high bc bullets- that rules out WSM's. Get a 7mm Mag and learn to deal with the recoil. Firstly, what part of Nathans book is confusing Jake? They are set out in a step by step sequence, that teaches you the tools needed to make your own, well thought out decisions. Your 270 Rem Mountain rifles is a radical swing away from what everyone has suggested and what you would have read in the book, also a fare way short of the wsm’s power you where after. Secondary, WSM’s will shoot any suitable, high bc projectiles for the calibre as well as any other. Just make shore the magazine length is there to suit these longer projectiles. Accuracy, projectile construction/suitability and delivered energy is what LR hunting is all about, combine these to suit your game and you will have an ethical outcome. The 7mm rem is a great calibre but there not the “be all and end all” in long range hunting & certainly not the only option, just one of many good options that has its limitations like any other. |
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@ 05:13 pm (GMT) |
Jake longRe: Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer?Martin, just got information overload for a bit. After re reading several sections. I believe the 270 is a great Elk caliber according to my reading. I'll load it with his recommended 150 Partition or TSX with a high MV. I'll work up a ladder to get this figured out.I agree with fitness being the most important aspect to mtn hunting. Not sure how much of this style you do but cutting weight has allowed me to push harder and longer. Both critical keys to being a successful backcountry hunter. Most of my trips are solo so i carry everything on my back. A pound or two adds up with each step. I have my backcountry gear trimmed very light and constantly cutting weight. After all the great advice from guys on here. I did go for a medium weight rig. It'll still save me around 2 lbs which will be huge on the final days of my hunts but not totally limit me to short shots. If I can get a mv of 2900, at 6,000 ft, temp 50, hum 30% Berger 150 VLD hit the 2000 fps wall at roughly 1000 (G7) Partitions 150 hit the 1800 fps wall at roughly 600 y (G1) TSX 150 hit the 1800 wall at roughly 625 (G1) SST 150 hit the 1800 wall at roughly 650 (G1) Do I add a 100 yards to these figures since I hunt 9,000-12,000 vert? or was this taken into account with my ballistic calculator input? What bullet would be the best for elk (700lbs) and mule deer (250lbs) at the 600 yard max? Jake *I use the Lecia HD-B so my dope adjusts with altitude, angle, and temp. |
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@ 10:20 pm (GMT) |
Martin TaylorRe: Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer?With your need to go to 600 yards l think the SST would be the best choice. l would stay away from the TSX for your longer shots. |
@ 09:03 pm (GMT) |
mark whiteleyRe: Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer?I really like the 270 wsm long throated to suit the 150gr sst projectile with a bc of .525 that much that I had a match reamer made up and am having my poor old 300wm rebarreled to it,and I am doing it for longer range shooting, this combo should be as flat shooting as my 6.5x284 with 140gr berger's going by my ballistics program, where I am the 6.5 is not legal for the red's so this is why the rebarrel I know what you are going through with having to make a choice but this was mine after heaps of research, best of luck and regards mark |
@ 02:27 pm (GMT) |
Bryan WebsterRe: Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer?Quote: With your need to go to 600 yards l think the SST would be the best choice. l would stay away from the TSX for your longer shots.
I totally agree. Tsx bullets are not that effective once the velocity slows down, but am not sure where that point might be. Likely decent killing effect from a 300wsm out to 350 to 400 but beyond i have talked to more than one hunter who had shot an elk, and it ran a long way before dying of a well placed shot, only to be found late the following day. (Well placed were lung shots that should have done well at close range or a differentbullet.) |
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@ 07:05 pm (GMT) |
Jake longRe: Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer?Thanks for the additional advice. I have the gun at my smith being trued and bedded. Waiting to get it back before building bullets. I did acquire 150 Berger VLD, 150 Accubond LR, and 140 (largest available at this time) SST. I read another forum that advised that some bergers tips are closed. I will go threw all of my boxes and try shoving a bend staple into the tip to make sure they'll expand. I have a early Caribou hunt this fall so will be able to test the best load out on them before elk season. They are a couple hundred pounds lighter then a bull elk but the only option I have here. Depending on my MV and comfort shooting the light weight set up. I might have to reduce my target range. I have been reading all of Nathans books and am really thankful for this site and you guys.Anyone played around with Meplating Bergers? I'm thinking this might make them much more reliable vs annealing. Annealing makes me nervous if I over heat or unknowingly make it unsafe to shoot. Thanks Jake |
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@ 06:19 pm (GMT) |
Martin TaylorRe: Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer?Hi Jake,I am using 210 & 215 Berger’s in my 300wm and have found them to be a bit frustrating and erratic when used on animals. Shoot extremely well .3 moa and better at times. Hard to put it into words but basically l am parroting what Nathan has written many times on here and throughout his books. Have found lack of expansion at as little as 400 yards when bone was missed on entry. I have trimmed tips by around 2mm and opened up the hollow and annealed as per Nathans recommendations. I have yet to try them on the Sambar & Red-Elk hybrid deer l chase but they still shoot very well on paper. |
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@ 09:41 pm (GMT) |
Jake longRe: Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer?Martin, thanks for the reply. I'm excited to see how your modified bergers work. I have had lights out death with the 7mm 168 VLD on elk in the 400 yard range. I had one blow up on a cow elk at 60 yards with a shoulder shot. She ran and ran for over a mile before the blood trail vanished. This year, I believe the bull I shot at 730 yards pin holed and left no blood trail. Never could find him or any sign he was hit so could have possible missed. Would love to know meplating is the fix or if I should just switch to the A-max or Matrix once I can find a box.I get to pick up the new rifle tomorrow from the smith. Will get the rings trued and start working up loads. Jake |
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@ 03:14 pm (GMT) |
Martin TaylorRe: Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer?Jake I set up with the Bergers because thats all l could get for a long time here in OZ.I head shoot another animal at 450, base of skull rear exiting with a pin hole in the front of skull with a standard 215. (head shots can be trickey though!) Now the Amax's are available that’s the way l will be going when funds allow! Have only done preliminary paper testing but all the signs are good. Have also set them up in my 308 in 168g Amax after Bob & Nathan put me onto a great price here. I know Bob has had very good results, so looking forward to trying them out as well. |
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@ 05:40 pm (GMT) |
Jake longRe: Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer?[/img]
7lb 8oz with sling, working on loads now |
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@ 01:20 pm (GMT) |
Jake longRe: Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer?After sighting the gun in these were my first two test loads. Very happy so far but will be working the fps up. .270, RL-17, Berger 150 VLD
fps 2690 plus minus 15 |
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@ 01:22 pm (GMT) |
Jake longRe: Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer?[img][url=http://s1282.photobucket.com/user/jacob_long1/media/20150106_120117_zpsc784b0a7.jpg.html][img]http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a531/jacob_long1/20150106_120117_zpsc784b0a7.jpg[/img][/url]fps 2670 plus minus 20 |
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@ 01:23 pm (GMT) |
Jake longRe: Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer?[img][url=http://s1282.photobucket.com/user/jacob_long1/media/20150106_120117_zpsc784b0a7.jpg.html][img]http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a531/jacob_long1/20150106_120117_zpsc784b0a7.jpg[/img][/url] |
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@ 01:27 pm (GMT) |
Jake longRe: Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer?[img]<a href="http://s1282.photobucket.com/user/jacob_long1/media/20150106_120117_zpsc784b0a7.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a531/jacob_long1/20150106_120117_zpsc784b0a7.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 20150106_120117_zpsc784b0a7.jpg"/></a> |
@ 06:54 am (GMT) |
Lawrence HorathRe: Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer?My brother and I have been shooting the .270 WSM for a few years now. I do the family reloading and we use 140 grain Nosler Accubonds and IMR 4350 with an average velocity of 3150 FPS.Between us we have taken 7 Elk I the last 3 years all with one shot kills at ranges from a couple hundred yards to 637 yards (2 different Leica rangefinders used). Obviously marksmanship is critical but none took more than two steps. Its an impressive cartridge when loaded with the right bullet. Deer and Antelope don't take any steps at all. |
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@ 03:29 pm (GMT) |
Bryan WebsterRe: Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer?Just my opinion Jake... While the Bergers are great on accuracy they do little to impress me with their results on game.I would personally go for the Hornady A-Max bullets or as Lawrence indicated, the 140 grain Nosler Accubonds. |
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@ 05:09 pm (GMT) |
Bryan WebsterRe: Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer?If considering Nosler bullets, this is an interesting read:http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a554683.pdf |
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@ 03:55 pm (GMT) |
Bryan WebsterRe: Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer?Quote: My oldest son bought the Tikka T3 Lite in 300WSM and now wishes he had listened to me and bought the varmint barrelled version. Wee bit heavier but way more shootable for his practice sessions. I think we will soon be restocking his in a sturdier stock which will help both accuracy and the bit of weight increase may make it more fun to practice with.
Also remember that a WSM will have a considerably shortened barrel life compared to say a 300 Winchester Magnum or the 7mm Remington Magnum, both of which I personally prefer over the WSM equipment. I have taken more than a few elk and moose at the ranges that you are talking about with my 7mm Remington Magnum. The major reason people are heading for the WSM chamberings is to save on weight because of the short action yet with pletny of power. That being said, most people do not shoot enough to be able to use them...one of Nathan's comments is that his customers are taught to shoot the heavy recoil rifles. In my experience here in northern BC, guide outfitters often cringe when a client shows up with a heavy recoiling rifle for good reason. We just put his t3 into a Bell and Carlson stock with aluminum block, bedded it with steel epoxy. Drives tacks, is far more comfortable to shoot, is a bit heavier but not so much as to be any sort of issue. He is pleased. Is having the action and barrel redone with Ceracote in a dark green to match his stock. Lugs are lapped, scope rings too. Trigger was already good so no change there. Has a Zeiss scope on it and thinking about a higher power scope now. |
@ 01:55 am (GMT) |
Buck SlammerRe: Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer?Hi Bryan,I am curious out the 300 WSM having a shorter barrel life than a 300 Win Mag or a 7mm WSM over a 7mm Rem Mag? Is this been just anecdotal evidence from your experience or is it a known fact? What contributes to it, as the WSM's would use slightly lesser quantity if the same powder to achieve same velocity, wouldn't they? Is it the case that the burn in the WSM occurs closer to the throat and lesser along the entirely if the barrel because if the case design? I am really interested to know. Also, on average what is the difference in barrel life? Thanks, Buck. |
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@ 06:18 pm (GMT) |
Bryan WebsterRe: Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer?Comment was for 300WSM only. 270WSM may be the same but have not seen reports on that one other than one friend who bought one for his wife and put 1200 rounds through it over last year and this winter. He says he is having it rebarreled because its groups went from sub 1/2 moa to averaging 2 to 4 inches at one hundred yards and his gunsmith said it was shot out. That was he claimed, using mild loads the entire time, but I am sure he pushed the limits from time to time as well. The main reason he shot hers so much was that he loved its low felt recoil and accuracy in its B&C stock. He did mention buying a new one for his wife however.As for the 7mm Remington Magnum, well mine is an older one and has had over 3500 rounds through it, beaten up sheep and elk hunting as well as hunting moose and deer with it for years and I am just now fighting with it to maintain its accuracy, so that was not in the context of what I was trying to say since it was intended to be directed at the 300wsm only. A new barrel for the 7mm Rem Mag is being considered finally. It is hard to leave it alone given the memories of headshot elk and deer at crazy ranges. I would suggest that you start out and do a search on google for barrel life and 300WSM looking for reviews. Many persons state 600 to 900 rounds before accuracy is either finished or cannot be brought back for their barrel. I would not doubt that should a person resist loading 180 grain bullets at over 3000fps it would last longer. Good luck with it, and in my personal opinion, it will matter little in the long run if the barrel life is poor just so long as it has a high degree of accuracy. It is after all, just a part of the rifle that will eventually wear out and will likely be replaced over time. My recent preference list would be to go with a 300 Win Mag in a epoxy bedded Remington 700 Sendero, but at my age the weight of the Sendero or Remington 700 5R mil spec in the same cartridge makes more sense to go this way than the light weights and heavier felt recoil rifles as I use my Quad or a horse to pack the rifle for me, and do not head out on long treks packing a ten pound monster any more than makes sense to me these days. |
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@ 05:53 am (GMT) |
Bryan WebsterRe: Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer?Spoke to four gunsmiths today. Three of whom told me the 700 to 900 round bbl life stuff. They are all saying now that barrel life is similar to the 300 Win Mag....however they remain convinced if people are using hot loads and heating the barrels regularly then they will not last. Two said specifically that some barrels fail due to throat erosion because of this plus not getting the carbon out of the throat area.So I guess you were right about this. However they did agree that sub 0.5 accuracy may last for what I said, saying it all depends on the treatment the rifle got. I guess that means what they said is not much different from any rifle that generates high pressures and spits fast bullets. This would be closer to what I had understood the issue to be because the original issue was steel gong shooters and lots of rounds in short periods at a local range. |
@ 07:59 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer?Hi Bryan, glad you came to this yourself. The feedback you received is what I have been talking about for a long time with fixes given in the maintenance section of the Accurizing and Maintenance book. If we can keep the pores of the steel in the throat closed, we can extend barrel life.With hard usage, even a .308 Winchester will only go 1200 rounds before it is no longer a half minute shooter. When it comes to long range accuracy, it is not uncommon to rebarrel mild cartridges at this round count- let alone a magnum. Usage, chamber heat and maintenance procedures all impact barrel life. |
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