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A Little Disappointed in Hornady

14 Oct 2015
@ 03:52 pm (GMT)

Paul Leverman

Hello all. First post here and just wanted to thank all for the great discussions and knowledge that is freely given. Such a relief from the usual internet crap.
Now to business: I recently acquired a 45-70 Govt. and was doing some load research (how I found Nathan's site). After reading Nathan's articles about this caliber and bullet performance, I started really looking at bullet selection. I had pretty well had in mind the Hdy. 350gr FP anyway because of the meplat being (what appeared to be) the right size/shape. However, because I can't leave well enough alone, I started to think about modifying the bullet's tip just to see what I could come up with. I started by thinking I'll just shave some of the lead tip off and make it a wider diameter. Wrong. By removing the lead "cap" (that's exactly what it is), the diameter of what I thought was the tip actually got smaller. What Hdy. had done, or what it looked like to me, was to take a 350gr RN and just flatten the tip and swage the excess lead down around the jacket to make it look like a larger diameter tip. Now, I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but it sure seemed to me that this was just a marketing ploy and that they left the "excess" lead around the jacket just to retain advertised weight. I really don't see any benefit to expansion from leaving this cape hanging around the outside of the jacket.
Anyway, to further the "experiment", I continued trimming the bullet's tip until I reached a diameter of 0.359" (was trying for 0.360", but close enough). Now the bullet looks good, and not too much weight loss. It actually tips the scale at 334gr, so not too bad. What it loses in weight will be made up for in velocity, not much difference on either side of the equation.
I haven't loaded and fired any cartridges yet, but the whole idea behind this was to improve terminal performance in short range, close up work, in the neighbourhood of 25 - 50 yards.
Thanks for listening.

Replies

14 Oct 2015
@ 11:58 pm (GMT)

Paul Leverman

Re: A Little Disappointed in Hornady
I tried to get the photos to load, but like I said earlier, not the sharpest knife. So, instead, here is a link (maybe this will work) <a href="https://www.flickr.com/gp/[email protected]/P8Sa79">https://www.flickr.com/gp/[email protected]/P8Sa79</a> of some pics of what it looks like.
15 Oct 2015
@ 04:14 am (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: A Little Disappointed in Hornady
Hi Paul, I don't know whats going on with that Flicker site, it really does not want to interface with this forum. Bugger.

Sounds like a good project and I am sure you will get the performance you are looking for.

The joys of experimentation!
15 Oct 2015
@ 03:34 pm (GMT)

Paul Leverman

Re: A Little Disappointed in Hornady
It's frustrating because I can't download (upload?) to Photobucket, and I can't get the pics on flikr to load here. Maybe try pasting the url? I don't know.

As to the performance, I hope this is successful. We just had another predator attack here. Mature, healthy boar grizzly decided he wanted to see what was in the tent. Poor guy sleeping didn't have a clue. His buddies killed it as it was dragging him out of the tent, but he suffered a bullet wound in the process. Lesser of two evils, I'm thinking.

Where we hunt, 75 yards is a long shot, twenty-five is more like it. There's a good chance that a bear is nearby. I figured at twenty-five yards, during a full charge, I'll have time to pull the triggers once. It'll either be the last shot at the bear, or the last shot ever. Like they say, "Go big, or go home."
15 Oct 2015
@ 05:17 pm (GMT)

mark korte

Re: A Little Disappointed in Hornady
With regards to the bear attack and "collateral" damage from his buddies' bullets - maybe bear spray could have taken care of the situation effectively and avoided an unfortunate gunshot wound. It would seem much easier to effectively use in such a chaotic situation than trying to shoot a bear without shooting your friend.
15 Oct 2015
@ 10:41 pm (GMT)

Paul Leverman

Re: A Little Disappointed in Hornady
Hi Mark - I wasn't there, so I can't really say if spray would have been helpful or not. According to the news release, it was night and all three parties were in bed sleeping. Like I said, I wasn't there, but I can imagine when his two buddies were awakened by his screaming, spray would not have been on their minds.

***This just in****

As I was typing this, my wife just told me some more of the story. Apparently, they had bagged a moose that afternoon. This lends me to believe that the scent was everywhere in camp (on their boots, their clothes, their equipment, etc.) When the casualty's buddy shot the bear, the bear had the casualty in his mouth and was dragging him out of the tent. The bullet that killed the bear was the one that hit the hunter (in the elbow). The bear died instantly.
The CO's investigated and cleared the hunters of all wrong-doing, obvious self-defense and protection of life.
The casualty suffered severe head, neck, and shoulder wounds, as well as bite marks to the calf. Is now in serious condition in ICU, but expected to live. May lose the arm from the bullet wound, but this is to be determined later.
Lucky to be alive.
I would hope my partners reacted the same way.
15 Oct 2015
@ 11:00 pm (GMT)

Paul Leverman

Re: A Little Disappointed in Hornady
Correction - the news release I read said it was a grizzly. Latest update shows that it was a 158kg (347lbs.) Black bear.
16 Oct 2015
@ 12:53 am (GMT)

Bryan Webster

Re: A Little Disappointed in Hornady
Quote:
With regards to the bear attack and "collateral" damage from his buddies' bullets - maybe bear spray could have taken care of the situation effectively and avoided an unfortunate gunshot wound. It would seem much easier to effectively use in such a chaotic situation than trying to shoot a bear without shooting your friend.


I do not assume you have had a bear attack you while holding a pitiful little bottle of spray... Black bear are the ones that most likely nobody should trust, while grizzly bear are far more predictable. I have seen where bear spray did nothing useful during a black bear attack, and if a passing vehicle whose owner had a rifle had not intervened the victim would have died. They are not always so aggressive for sure, but in our remote areas where black and grizzly bear never see a human and they consume up to 36% of their diet by predating on young of the year deer, elk and moose, such attacks are more common than many realize. A significant number of persons here in the bush carry a rifle or shotgun with slugs and buckshot for this reason.
16 Oct 2015
@ 07:24 am (GMT)

Mike Davis

Re: A Little Disappointed in Hornady
same reason a tazer is better than pepper spray....try spray on pissed off stoned fella and it will just make him more agro....make him ride the lightening will sort him out. I sure hope my buddies would have shot to save me too...not that its an issue here in NZ.
16 Oct 2015
@ 02:53 pm (GMT)

mark korte

Re: A Little Disappointed in Hornady
Paul-
The addition of the moose into the scenario makes sense, as does the black bear, which can be very determined scavengers. A big part of avoiding bear issues is simply being "bear aware" and that includes making sure there are no food smells in the tent. Its unfortunate that this incident happened at all given that it may well have been avoided. Getting horribly wounded because you chose not to store your bloody clothes etc. away from the tent is a shame.
Bryan -
I have indeed faced off a very determined sow grizzly that was simply trying to protect her three cubs. I spoke of it in an earlier post so I won't go into too much detail here. When she made her move I had a double barrel shotgun (I was bird hunting) in one hand and bear spray in the other. I chose not to kill her and she made a very hasty retreat and I suspect will be more circumspect about things in the future. I know I definitely am. I also personally know a coworker that stopped a charge with spray. It works. But it has to be carried where you can reach it in seconds - storing it in your pack won't cut it. And I can guarantee its easier to find a vulnerable place on a charging bear with a shotgun-like pattern of bear spray than it is with a bullet. It all happens very, very fast. I'm just not that good enough of a shot in a chaotic charge situation to make sure I put that bullet where it needs to be. And I doubt many people are, especially if the weapon is a large caliber handgun. If one regularly practices that sort of shooting and is confident in one's ability - go for it. But too many people seem to believe that just carrying a large caliber weapon can replace practice or more importantly, common sense in bear country.
As to black bears resisting a charge of spray - I can't speak to it. Black bears are very common where I live, but I have not heard of any incidents like the one you described. But I don't doubt that it happened. I certainly wouldn't hesitate to use the rifle in that situation.
Sorry Paul - I guess this went a long way from Hornaday!
17 Oct 2015
@ 05:35 am (GMT)

Thomas Kitchen

Re: A Little Disappointed in Hornady
all i can say guys is im glad i live in new zealand only grizzly i got to watch out for is when i turn up home from hunting 6 hours later then i said i would be.
24 Oct 2015
@ 03:11 pm (GMT)

Paul Leverman

Re: A Little Disappointed in Hornady
Well, Mark, most of my conversations wander around in circles anyway. It's hard to stay on topic when there are a lot of people and even more stories. It's kind of ironic, really. After all this discussion about bears and how to deal with them, we had a bear on our porch last week. She had been in the neighbourhood for about a week, bothering most of the houses here. I'm sure she was doing her bear thing, getting ready for denning up, but she was here too long, and getting comfortable. The lady up the street has four kids, the lady across the street has two. Not a good scenario no matter how you look at it. The last straw was when my wife and I were sitting, enjoying supper, and the bear decided that she would check us out. Whether it was the smell of my wife's cooking that brought her in (can't blame the bear for that!), or just curiosity, it was a fatal mistake for the bear. A 12ga. slug from a measured 9.5ft took out both shoulder blades. Now, a person would think that an injury like that would, if not stop, at least slow down any kind of animal. Guess again. When the slug hit her, like most bears I've shot, she turned and bit at the entry wound, basically attacking what she thought was attacking her. In the same instant, she turned and ran away from me. In the time I had to pump in another round and fire, she had covered about 50ft, and then she was gone. I found her about 125 ft. away. (Walking her trail, I estimated no more than 3-4 seconds before she piled up, dead.) Not bad for no shoulders. When we opened her up, we found some pretty amazing wound channels. The slug did not exit. The biggest piece was lodged in the off-side shoulder blade, it had penetrated and shattered the bone, but got hung up on the edge of the hole. A smaller piece had separated, presumably after hitting the on-side shoulder, carried through to the opposite side, deflected off the shoulder blade, angled back, cut through the diaphragm, traveled along the ribcage, and came to rest just forward of the off-side rear leg. This piece was extremely malformed and very sharp, yet it luckily missed the gut contents, but what a wound! I really don't think it would have been fatal, it's hard to say. There was very little bleeding or bruising, except for the hole in the diaphragm, after the initial impact, this did very little damage to anything major. What looked like had done the most damage was the secondary missiles, being the bone fragments. The shoulder blade on the on-side was hit in the upper half (the muzzle was about four feet higher than her shoulder, I was on the porch, she was on the ground) and the slug pretty well obliterated it. Both lungs looked like they had taken a load of bird shot, too many holes to count. She's now at the butcher's, going to be some nice pepperoni and ham. Her estimated age: 5yrs; her estimated weight: 332 lbs. Got about 30 lbs of fat off of her. When the skull dries for the required time, I'll post the numbers.
25 Oct 2015
@ 06:29 am (GMT)

Warwick Marflitt

Re: A Little Disappointed in Hornady
Wow! 50 ft in the time to reload again. I have watched some bear attack videos on the net and my hair stands up! They're a formidable Foe to take on. I've been charged by an angry bull on the farm and lived to tell the tale but I feel that it's nothing when compared to your ordeal! Paul I have great respect for you to know what to do and having the courage to do it. If she had charged at you it could have been a bad day. Having two people shooting maybe wouldn't be a bad idea or a semi auto snot gun? I'm sure that the neighborhood and wife are extremely grateful of your actions. Sad to have to remove the bear but Well done.
30 Oct 2015
@ 02:59 pm (GMT)

Paul Leverman

Re: A Little Disappointed in Hornady
Sorry, guys. I have been having issues with my internet security program, it wouldn't let me sign in here. Hopefully, the fix I found is permanent.

Warwick - I don't know if a second shooter would have made a difference. She was really close and really fast. I'm thinking that, while it is a possibility that a second shooter would have dropped her, she reacted so fast, that maybe a second shot would have ended up as a "somewhere on target" shot. Still, two slugs would probably be better than one.

I am going to try to post a link https://flic.kr/s/aHsknFnw5Q to photos of the slug pieces we found. If it doesn't work, I'll try to figure it out.

The piece at the top is the one that was lodged in her off-side shoulder blade. Moving to the right, is the piece that travelled down along her ribs. The other two were just pieces we found in the meat.
30 Oct 2015
@ 04:58 pm (GMT)

Bryan Webster

Re: A Little Disappointed in Hornady
Lots of disruption on the slug. Surprising really.

I have shot grizzly bear with a 3" magnum 12 gauge using slugs broadside in the shoulder at 12 meters and they remained relatively intact and were hugely effective.

If I recall they were a Remington brand. [b]
30 Oct 2015
@ 05:10 pm (GMT)

mark korte

Re: A Little Disappointed in Hornady
Although I doubt she could have done much damage with no shoulders it makes you think about making a anchoring shot on a charging bear. The bears I have seen pepper sprayed (one black and one grizzly) eventually traveled far more than 125 feet, but in the opposite direction. If you do find yourself attacked by a bear and have no other recourse here is yet another unique way to fend it off :)

http://www.greatfallstribune.com/story/news/2015/10/05/chase-dellwo-recounts-saturdays-grizzly-attack/73348328/

I've known this guy since he was about 7 years old and have hunted that creek longer than that. Pay special attention to his first and last quotes....
01 Nov 2015
@ 03:04 pm (GMT)

Paul Leverman

Re: A Little Disappointed in Hornady
Mark - Great story, in that your buddy is still alive. It's good when all turns out without tragedy. I've never been charged, or even close, to a griz. I live, work and hunt in their turf. I've seen plenty, boars, sows, sows with cubs, and the worst of them all, the three year olds. Of all the bluffs and threats my buddies tell me, they've all had the same common denominator: three year old bear. I've had sows bring their cubs through camp, leave a calling card, and carry on. Didn't even know she had paid us a visit until that morning. I've had bears run along the road in front of us, and we lost ground to them mighty fast. They are so fast, it is indescribable. If you want to feel something eerie, the feeling that makes the hair on your whole body stand up, walk up unknowingly on a freshly covered kill. Every sense goes into full alert mode, and get ready for an overdose of adrenaline. As to the pepper spray, do you know what strength/percentage of capsaicin is recommended? Wiki says 1 - 2%, is there better available? We bought a can a while back and had to register it as a firearm because of its strength, but I will have to look for it, not sure where it is, now.
02 Nov 2015
@ 02:46 am (GMT)

mark korte

Re: A Little Disappointed in Hornady
Paul -
Its interesting that you and your friends experiences are with 3 year olds. Around here a sow with cubs - surprised - is your worst nightmare. In the case I posted it was simply an example of way too close. Every time I've run into a single bear (admittedly and thankfully none as close as the one in the story!) its been the same reaction - bear runs one way and human has huge adrenaline rush, hopefully keeping the bowels/bladder in check, while walking quickly backwards the other way. I believe that at medium ranges there is also a lot of posturing and body language that single bears do when they feel threatened - huffing, popping jaws, false charges, turning sideways to show their superior size - that grizzlies play out before they finally make a decision on whether to run or thump you. There is plenty of evidence that if you give them their do - make yourself small by turning sideways and looking down, speaking quietly, backing up - basically saying "fine. I'm leaving, you are bigger than me" that they will back down. Sort of like a dogs. That's what Native Americans (First Nations) did and they lived with them every day. Too many bears get shot for "charging" when its a false charge. That's another thing I like about spray as a first defense. If its close enough to spray, its serious.
More to your question - the stuff we use is 2% capsicum. Its brand name is Counter Assault. I hire seasonals every year that get outfitted with the stuff and we have bear training (there is a great video produced in Canada) that involves actually firing dated bear spray to get an idea of the range and spread of the stuff. If you have a chance to spray it before you need it its a very good idea, just like getting used to your rifle.
Hope your bear meat came back delicious!
02 Nov 2015
@ 01:51 pm (GMT)

Paul Leverman

Re: A Little Disappointed in Hornady
Thanks, Mark. I'll have a look for it. Yep, griz are a whole different science. Body language is everything to an animal. We have to adapt to their language, and we better learn quick.
03 Nov 2015
@ 01:02 am (GMT)

Paul Leverman

Re: A Little Disappointed in Hornady
Thanks for the tip, Mark. Had a look at the EPA chart, some interesting numbers and information. Apparently, we aren't as dedicated to protecting our outdoorspeople as you are, in that the best spray I could find in BC was 1%. And of course, being an aerosol, without TDG paper and fees, no one will ship it north. I guess I'll just have to stick to slugs and Hornadys. [/url]http://www.counterassault.com/[url]
03 Nov 2015
@ 06:56 am (GMT)

Warwick Marflitt

Re: A Little Disappointed in Hornady
Years ago a mate used my double trigger side by side shotgun. He pulled both triggers at once! He missed the Magpie he was shooting at . If you let rip two slugs at once would that be a bit more Medicine for Grizzly? Yeah I know you are left holding an empty gun! F#@K! Plus double the recoil. I saw the gun below on the rack a few months ago. Only single trigger a no way to select which barrel fire's first.


03 Nov 2015
@ 08:19 pm (GMT)

mark korte

Re: A Little Disappointed in Hornady
Paul,
That's too bad about the 1% bear spray. There is a pretty stern warning on the stuff we have about NOT FOR USE ON HUMANS and MAY CAUSE PERMANENT DAMAGE TO EYES AT VERY CLOSE RANGE, so probably not a good choice if you are fending off an attack after coming home from hunting 6 hours late as Thomas has had to face. I would think that a Province with so many bears would be a little more enlightened. But then again maybe that's why the powers that be are so cavalier - you have lots of bears to spare. I know one main downfall is that you can't take it on bush planes - for obvious reasons. Spray or Hornadays, here is a link to the DVD we use in bear safety training as well as others I didn't know about but look interesting. It really is worth $20 if you are going to be moving about in bear country.

http://margosupplies.com/public/american1/bear_deterrents/bear_videos.htm

Warwick - That's an interesting looking weapon - does it have 3 triggers?!! Why not just use an auto loader or a pump? Bears are tough but even a single load of bird shot at 20 feet is going to take the side of one's head off if its a true charge situation.
03 Nov 2015
@ 11:45 pm (GMT)

Warwick Marflitt

Re: A Little Disappointed in Hornady
Only one trigger.
06 Nov 2015
@ 06:04 am (GMT)

Paul Leverman

Re: A Little Disappointed in Hornady
Mark - we definitely have a few to spare. Would you like some? I'm sure our govts could negotiate a X-border seeding like the wolf program. Thanks for the video links.
I've got some loads made up for the double, all I need is time to get out and shoot. I am curious, and a little hesitant, as to what will happen when I pull both triggers. I just know it's going to hurt, but if a fella doesn't know what he's getting into and he hesitates, it might just be the last time he does. I do have a Limbsaver on it, and that tames the .338 and the 12ga. pretty good, so I'm hoping the same for the double.
Warrick - the reason I bought the double was for the advantage of "two for one". With a shotgun like that, you're limited to one barrel at a time, and time taken to select the next barrel, time you may not have. But really, this is all just speculation. Like I've said earlier in the post, I have never been in the situation where I've needed to act such as this. (Why I really bought the double was more for the fact it filled a calibre hole, and the "cool" factor, of course.)
Now, you've got me thinking, though. I have to go look at some energy figures. Maybe the slugs are the way to go.
06 Nov 2015
@ 06:17 am (GMT)

Paul Leverman

Re: A Little Disappointed in Hornady
Comparing the Hornady SST slugs in 12ga. to the 45-70: pretty well equal when using the 300gr. RN. But when you up the bullet weight, the 350grFP outperform in energy. What I expected, just had to confirm for my own peace of mind.
06 Nov 2015
@ 06:32 am (GMT)

Paul Leverman

Re: A Little Disappointed in Hornady
Mark - I can't believe I forgot to tell you. After your comment about the three year olds, I asked my partners again, and they all confirmed that the bears involved were three year olds (or rather that size of bear, as one can only make a good guess at their age). So, I dug a little deeper and went in to see the CO's and biologists. Apparently, they were pretty well unanimous that, excepting the protective sow and any bear protecting a kill, the young ones were the worst. Reason being, these young bears have just been kicked out by momma, have no turf to call their own, have probably been picked on by every other bear in the country so they have an attitude, and think that mom is still there somewhere to back them up. Not a real good mix.
 

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