|
|
|
Discussion Forums
Forum Index
> Precision long range hunting and shooting
> 180 ELDM (.284)
180 ELDM (.284)
@ 06:43 am (GMT) |
Christopher LyonI have tried to do the research for this, but I need to turn to the experts.I have read Nathan's comments about a 1/9 twist for the Hornady 180 ELDM's. In one comment I read, it was mentioned that the velocity of the 7mm Practical along with the 1/9 Twist stabilized the 180 ELDM. If I am using a 284 Winchester or 7mm-08, that doesn't generate 7mm Magnum velocities, do I need a faster twist like 1/8 or 1/8.5. I will be building a 284 Winchester on a Tikka Long action. I live at 5000 ft, and I hunt in areas up to 10,000+. Any help and experience with the 180 ELDM's and twist rates in non-magnum calibers would be much appreciated. |
Replies
@ 09:43 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: 180 ELDM (.284)Hi Christopher, yes that is correct, for the slower cartridges you will be best served with the faster twist rates you mentioned. |
|
@ 10:25 am (GMT) |
Christopher LyonRe: 180 ELDM (.284)It is pretty fantastic to get information from the source. I will plan on a 1/8 twist. |
@ 07:18 am (GMT) |
Jake CareyRe: 180 ELDM (.284)Christopher,I think I meant to chime in months ago but it failed for some reason. I'm in the exact same boat as you, but I essentially flipped a coin and went with a 7 SAUM instead of 284 win. It's built around the 180 ELDM too. I live in Utah so my practicing will be around a mile and hunting will be around 1.5-2 miles, same as you. So while a 1:9 will just stabilize the 180 at our elevations and case capacity, the smith I bought my savage prefit from told me he has a ton of clients using that bullet and they just do not see disintegration at the velocities the saum or 284 can produce. Especially in the case of a 5r barrel. I have been very slow getting out and getting rounds down range but I have not seen and blow up even at max case stuffage during pressure testing. Anyway, I'm sure your decision has been made weeks and weeks ago but Since our builds are so similar I couldn't help myself. If you are getting along with the the build, how do you like it? I really wanted a 284 when I started but the math just didn't work in a 2.97 coal. It barely works with the saum but where's the fun in a known outcome? |
@ 03:44 pm (GMT) |
Mike DavisRe: 180 ELDM (.284)OK I have read this four times,and sat on it all morning....Jake,you have made assumption and lumped Christopher into same lot as yourself......... that would grind my gears. no where has he said he intends to shoot waay out long. which brings up next point...you say you practise to mile but intend to hunt to 1.5-2 miles...... read that again...... and then again...... then take a loooong hard look in mirror. unless I missed the bit where you wrote you using a .50 bmg ...nah even then.... to put what you have written into other perspective, race driver wouldnt only test drive car at 100 kmph and go out on race day and give car full power..that would be courting disaster . ... I will stop now. |
@ 04:43 pm (GMT) |
Jonathan KittermanRe: 180 ELDM (.284)Mike Davis,Jake and Christopher are both talking elevation |
@ 04:58 pm (GMT) |
Hamish GibbsRe: 180 ELDM (.284)Yeah Mike took me a little processing also, bit hard to think of elevation put that way coming from down under ways. You stopped there though right! Nice save. |
|
@ 08:40 pm (GMT) |
Mike DavisRe: 180 ELDM (.284)I see...so its a bit like the 4x2 Vs 2x4 thing....???????elevation NORMALLY doesnt even enter equation for me..in fact cant even think where it would do.....got a hunt coming up later in year...HIGHEST point on block has elevation of 150 yards above sea level LOL..... best of luck with the hunting......just as well I stopped where I did..... half cocked comes to mind....... excuse??? get a bit precious over fellas super long range skite with no real practice..... one of the reasons this place is so good....if you dont keep it real ,you will be told.....myself included. stay dry folks..this rain cant last forever. |
|
@ 04:53 am (GMT) |
Jake CareyRe: 180 ELDM (.284)Wow that got out of hand overnight.First I feel safe assuming Christopher is in the same boat as me because he's asking the literal exact same question for the exact same bullet and cartridge class I was researching a month before. Unless he's writing from central Asia then I'd also infer we live within a few hours of each other, or at most a day's drive. Not many logical chasms being leapt across here. Unrelated but for some reason it was very hard to find the needs or effects of the 180 ELDM at moderate speed back in the winter so I wanted to make sure it was shared for future inquiring minds. I apologize for any medical emergencies you may have suffered as a result of your apoplectic paroxysms of judgement, but I did use the actual word "elevation" as context, albeit after the main body of the inflammatory statement. No harm meant, friend, lol. Just handing it back to you. I'm recovering from my second covid vaccine dose so I appreciate the chuckle, and I'll try to be more sympathetic in the future sicne I grew up at sea level too. Now I live at just under a mile up. If I feel like it I can leave my house on foot and be at 9000 ft in a few hours. If I hop in the truck ("ute" I think to my southern friends) I can shortly be in any number of plateaus where the entire surface is between 9 and 13 thousand feet from sea level. It's a very strange experience at that height really. Even sound and smells function different. You can't hear the rumble of a motor nearby but you can hear distant birds in flight and the whispers of an elderly woman's tracksuit far around the bend. Even your car gets out of breath: the healthy 4 liters of displacement gets markedly neutered and even the brakes need to be treated gingerly because the fluid can boil into foam without warning. Insomnia, nausea, joint pain, tremors, confusion, and paranoia are the milder side effects for some people who arrive up there suddenly, including me. It's quite a trade off but that's where the game are, and it's as close to shooting in space as we'll get. So anyway, yes, we start to take the special considerations of sheer height as an assumed part of every conversation here in a state that feels as tall as it is wide. I understand flying across the Pacific takes a year of one's life but if anyone ever feels like a visit I'll be happy to give some directions, and I assure you all the rumors about the american west are true. Except the shooting: even in Utah I don't think anyone is trying to shoot game at a mile or more. Rocks, washing machines, zombie gongs and picnic plates, you bet. It's worth a visit. But also Mike, what did you think Christopher lived 5,000 feet from? And you bravely bit your lip where you did but what was left to say??? I shudder to think, lol. |
|
@ 08:22 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: 180 ELDM (.284)OK, will see if I can add a bit more to this.Regarding mid air blow ups, this generally comes about due to more than one factor (twist, finish, dimensions) and is at the more extreme end of the scale. This is not however uncommon. At the lower end of the scale (of potential negatives), one may simply see small fliers, finicky performance. I try my best to put my readers in the best possible position to obtain accuracy, taking this past research / variables into consideration. Just to add a bit more perspective, the Rem SPS in the M700 trouble shooting video (see video learning tab) had 1:9.25 twist. It is currently shooting the 180gr ELD-M into one hole at 100 yards at an MV of 2860fps at sea level. The rifle is performing well at long ranges, though it would of course display problems if pushed out to extreme ranges. This is a pretty normal result for a Remington in good order. Jake mentioned the SAUM - definitely worth considering as it is a well balanced cartridge, though it is not ideally suited to a short mag box (regarding 180gr ELD-M length). He also mentioned the 5R barrel which is an excellent point - less bullet deformation / stress. The 4 groove canted and Bartlein gain twist are further options if one wishes to utilize an 8.5 twist. Christopher, it may be worth considering something akin to Jake's build. Having said this and regarding your comment about the need to share- Jake, would you mind please sharing exact data so that we can compare apples with apples? What is the bottom metal / mag length you are using? What is your max OAL on the lands? Did your smith use a separate throat reamer (you stated that it was set up specifically for the 180)? You mentioned 2.97" / 75.4mm which is longer than a short magazine and more akin to a standard WSM magazine. Jake, regarding your question of the effects of the 180 at mid range from moderate velocities, there is a point at which the 180 may cleave to its momentum (retain some kinetic energy) if game animals are simply too lean. Internal wounding generally remains very good, but in some instances (countries), when fired from the likes of the .280 / 7x64 / .284, a longer range hit on light but tenacious species may result in a dead run. But again, internal wounding is very good. Nevertheless, for the sake of rapid incapacitation, the gun owner may wish to build some versatility into the rifle (twist) with regard to projectile options for use on light / lean game if such problems arise. This can also go the other way, animals too large for the 180gr ELD-M, it is no miracle bullet. The 190gr A-Tip has some merit in this regard, though a point is reached where no 7mm bullet can compare to a heavier .30 or .338 cal pill (any excuse for another rifle huh). As the saying goes, horses for courses. Damned zombies! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMD7h3d0iMQ |
|
@ 11:23 am (GMT) |
Jake CareyRe: 180 ELDM (.284)Nathan,I'm happy to share. Peer review makes my world go 'round. Especially when vaccine side effects have me too crosseyed to spoon my Hodgdon brand cereals onto the scales. I think a long 284 and medium Saum are similar enough fruit to compare projects. WHen I say I was set up for the 180 I mean I chose the cartridge, twist, rifling, and barrel profile based on the fact that I could get the 180 ELDM and little else. I had originally set out to do either a 7mm-08 or 284 but shortages were already here. Boxes of 162 class bullets were commanding nearly three figures in the local classifieds. 140-150 class 7s and .264 pills were even rarer, still are. So I bought a bunch of what was around: 168 long range accubond, 175 eldx, and 180 ELDM and built a 7 SAUM out of what was a 6.5 creedmoor. I almost built a 30 caliber saum or WSM but .308 projectiles were the rarest of all birds at the time. I regret that a bit now. I didn't have my prefit maker do anything special except answer a few questions about my choices to make sure I wasn't wasting my money. I'm using Savage short action model 10 with detachable box mag. Factory everything except the barrel and weaver rail. Barrel is a buttoned 1:8 "5r" type, 24 inches long with a sendero profile (minus the knox/barrel nut area obviously). At 2.963 (I misspoke earlier) feeler gauges show .030" free space at the deepest part of the mag, and .080" at the top. I might have to shorten by a hair. Max COAL to lands is 3.053". I'm pretty certain he used a one-piece reamer, as a custom throat was available but at a much different price. There's my first error: I didn't ask the smith if the reamer he had was a long-throated one and it seems to be based on my calculations. They are probably the standard at this point. Since I brought the 180 ELDM up to him he probably thoughtfully assumed I wanted the length and said nothing. So it goes when you're new and shy. But I have backups, and I plan on running it as an experiment and sharing my findings about jump tolerance. So far though the 90 thou jump isn't bothering anyone. I will not rule out problems with the ELDM and the additional violence for a while though. During a couple rounds of pressure testing with h4831sc and IMR 7977 i shot ALL of the 180 eldm into under an inch barely trying. The local range has tiny concrete tables and tight quarters and I use a bipod there because of the constraints. All that to say the jump tolerance looks great so far to be under a minute with those handicaps. I've also fired the 175 ELDX and the 168 ABLR. They were less accurate during pressure testing but not bad. They were still well under 2 MOA spread out over 5 grains. As you noted in the books the ELDX found pressure farther from book max than the others, I was glad not to be surprised. The 168 has the exact same max COAL, within an honest thousandth of the 180. The 175 is only jumping about .025 at the same mag length. I do not have a chronograph, so can't attest to speeds. That's next on the beg/buy/borrow list. All of these bullets do hang below the neck to be sure, especially the 175. I know this eats into theoretical powder space but I found early pressure signs before powder compression in every case, so I don't think I'm robbing myself. There may be consequences elsewhere but learning is learning. There will certainly be no spacewalking in my little gun. Thanks for your notes about expectations of the 180 on game. I had suspected something along those lines was possible, momentum tearing like a meteor through a solar panel. I remember seeing your video of the boar at 300 and trying to triangulate that dynamic onto an antelope and it felt it would be much as you say now. I've seen several whitetail deer shot at close range with 180 grain 30-06 and the results were always the same from every angle, a dead run. It's not what I would use to glue a ram onto its perch. Now that availability seems to be increasing I'm open to any bullets you'd suggest adding to the shopping list. My current hope is to get some of the hammer brand copper bullets and see what I can learn about their weight-shedding design alongside the ELDM. We don't have goats but we've got coyotes. I should be able to buy mule deer or elk tags but they'll be high-competition hunts, not dedicated long range affairs. Even after several trips through the books I'm still not sure which bullet I'd load to hunt larger game, that may come down to accuracy if nothing changes. I know the ELDX can perform on large game but I'm not seeing it as an advantage over a denser, milder ELDM. I don't think I'd use the ELDX on anything under 200 pounds at, I'm guessing, 2700fps. The 168 is more size appropriate but bonded bullets have their flaws as you've pointed out well. It's not the killing velocity for that bullet on lighter game and it's a hair small to be an great elk bullet. I also understand what you mean about the rifling twist and versatility, and that's also the result of circumstances. I was after a 9 twist but the smith had a 5 land 8. He could order the 9, but there was a wait. I work in shipping for a custom parts manufacturing company. I knew that 6 weeks wasn't going to mean the same thing in 5 weeks, not in 2021. So I bought the 8. I will possibly be overstabilizing some lighter bullets but I think the only lighter ones I'm interested in trying right now are copper and are still quite long. Maybe i'm seeing this all wrong but, again, I'm here for the critique. I hope that's not so long that it sounds vain, but there you are. |
|
@ 11:31 am (GMT) |
Jake CareyRe: 180 ELDM (.284)And Horses for courses, yes. If this horse can find another nice action at a good price then of course he is going to buy it and build a .3-- at the first sign of an elk tag. If the SAUM bores me those cases are getting blown out to at least .308. |
|
@ 12:14 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: 180 ELDM (.284)Thanks for sharing that info Jake, it will be helpful to other readers and forum users.I would not add any other bullets to your shopping list just now, though you could trial the 160gr TMK if you get a chance. It is good to gain familiarity with just one load at least for a while, to develop charts, to get to know it first hand in local winds etc. Changes can be made later, if required. |
|
@ 12:50 pm (GMT) |
Jake CareyRe: 180 ELDM (.284)You're welcome. At my age and location I'm in the epicenter of the PRS/precision chassis/hunting AR movement. If I can convince just one of my peers that they don't need those nasty heaps of heavily marketed discomfort then I'm happy. Thanks for all the advice. I do plan on focusing on the 180 unless something changes, and if published numbers are accurate I can manipulate charges to get the 168 to duplicate the 180 charts very closely if I have to for some reason. Be well down there. I'll let you know if I find any surprises. |
@ 07:03 pm (GMT) |
Michael SeagerRe: 180 ELDM (.284)Hi Christopher,I shoot a 26" barrelled 7x64 (Very similar powder capacity to a 284) that has a 1:8.2 Twist with the 180gr ELD-M (When I can get it). I have found that bullet works pretty well out to 1,200 and when I shot it off a front rest and bag at 1,000 yds I got less that 0.5MOA vertical spread (Lets not talk about my wind reading) I know some good shots who use a 7-08 really like the 160gr Sierra TMK (I use the 160gr TMK for my shooting out to 600 yds as funnily enough it works with the same case / primer / poweder load as my 160gr Gameking SBT hunting bullets) Best wishes, Mike |
Please wait
ABOUT USWe are a small, family run business, based out of Taranaki, New Zealand, who specialize in cartridge research and testing, and rifle accurizing.
|
KNOWLEDGEBASE |
KNOWLEDGEBASE |