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> Tikka T3 trouble shooting
Tikka T3 trouble shooting
@ 03:43 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterOriginal question redirected from email query:hi there i have a 7mm rem mag a tikka lite having problem with first - third shot placement but 4-6 placement gets tighter grouping? what can be done to inprove . |
Replies
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@ 04:55 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Tikka T3 trouble shootingHi Heath, the T3 is a somewhat finnicky platform. For every rave review I hear from users, we receive many T3 problem emails. I receive emails like yours on a week to week basis. To this end, I would like to address some of the idiosyncrasies of the design here on the forum to help other users with similar problems.The T3 design premise, is to produce the best possible results based on the cheapest possible platform. The design takes mass production techniques to the extreme, using plastic parts, along with minimal machining. The T3 has no recoil lug but instead, has a cross slot in the underside of the action. A piece of 6mm Ali flat bar sits in the stock which mates to the cross slot as the point of battery. The T3 plastic stocks (and to some extent the wooden stocks) are soft enough, that during firing, the action recoils back against the ali block, then comes forwards to its point of origin. This system is not unlike a rubber pad or nolethane bushing used in machinery to dampen and or eliminate vibration. After a time, a wear/bite mark can be seen in the Ali block, showing that this process does occur from shot to shot. The fact that the T3 system works is possibly more to do with coincidence than deliberate planning. The whole system usually works very well, the soft plastic stock flexing back and forth allowing the action to bite into its ali lug in a consistent manner. Accuracy from the T3 tends to be outstanding, most rifles will group around 12mm or .5" which is outstanding for a factory rifle. Unfortunately, when the T3 system fails to work, it fails on a number of levels. Bedding the action is not a hard fast remedy as this changes the stock properties from soft to hard. If the Ali block is not lined up and mated perfectly to the front edge of the action cross slot, the rifle will double group. In such instances, the bedding at the knox (first 20mm of the barrel) must be free floated to allow the action a little more room to breathe. A fundamental flaw in the design of the T3, besides the lack of a true recoil lug, is that the action sidewalls are parallel and prone to binding in bedding. This becomes even more of a problem if the sidewalls are not actually true, creating a slight dovetail effect. If the bedding is too tight, the rifle will double group. To alleviate this, the sidewall bedding must be carefully hand sanded, tested, sanded, tested, sanded - until the optimum fit and accuracy are achieved. Barrel quality of the T3 is no different to any other mass produced sporter - apart from the run of exploding barrels that occurred a few years ago. Tikka/Sako do their best to make the rifle affordable yet accurate, resulting in compromises with regard to how much time can be put into each operation. From time to time, flawed barrels occur and this sounds like it may be the case with yours, though it is impossible to tell via email correspondence. We recently binned a new barrel on a T3 for similar reasons, replaced it with a True-Flite barrel and the rifle shot well there-after. Your rifle may have other problems though, its hard to say. T3 rifles that are suffering accuracy problems generally require a major overhaul which becomes time consuming and costly for the client. Yet another limitation you may be having is the short COAL that has to be maintained in order for ammo to be housed in the short plastic magazine. This is definitely a problem found in the T3 .300 Win mag, along with the horrendous recoil induced from the feather weight platform. The T3 is best viewed as a normally accurate utility rifle. Those that don't shoot well out of the box are best sold off for a bargain and left to someone who has the time and is willing to build something out of it all. Unfortunately, hunters tend to ask near new prices for flawed second hand rifles so nobody wins. Realistically, in-accurate T3 rifles should be hocked for around $300 so that the new owner can afford to re-barrel if necessary. Ok, so nobody wants to lose $1000 on a dud purchase but there is such a thing as doing the right thing. One point worth noting, Sako, having lost their way with the finnicky model 75, have now fairly well duplicated the T3 action design with the model 85, albeit with double the price tag. The truly saddening aspect of it all, is that Sako had a great action design in the Finnbear and Hunter models. All that was lacking from these original models was attention to such details as the bolt locking lugs and other surfaces that require meticulous machining. Some (quite a few) have only one locking lug touching the lug abuttments, in some instances riding only on a burr. By paying more attention to the things that mattered, the need for a 3 lug design would have been eliminated. Perhaps one day we will see a return to the old designs but it won't happen anytime soon. There are definitely T3 rifles that give excellent accuracy out of the box, making for some very happy customers and glowing testimonials. On the other hand those who have poorly shooting rifles tend to sit quietly, wondering what they have done wrong. U.S hunters aren't quite so affable in this regard. When they see or have something they don't like, they don't hold back from warning their peers. |
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@ 07:50 am (GMT) |
Simon JeffreysRe: Tikka T3 trouble shootingSeems mainly to affect the more powerful rounds, that is the magnums rather than the ordinary rounds like the 270 or 243, from comments I have seen on other websites. |
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@ 02:30 pm (GMT) |
scott druryRe: Tikka T3 trouble shootingVery informative as usual Nathan, keep the great work up, It's nice to hear a non bias opinion about all the different manufactures, as we know none of them are perfect and they all have manufacturing issues, some more so than others!Cheers Mate |
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@ 09:51 pm (GMT) |
Ross GoldsackRe: Tikka T3 trouble shootingQuote: It's nice to hear a non bias opinion about all the different manufactures,
NON BIAS..... HaHaHa Don't you know Nathan has Remington tatooed on his forehead and wipes his bum with specially printed "Tikka" toilet paper. Just kidding.....Just kidding |
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@ 09:11 pm (GMT) |
tim woodillRe: Tikka T3 trouble shootingGutted to read your assessment of the difficulties of Accurising a T3. I recently purchased a 7mm-08 T3 based on recommendations from a couple of sources and after reading about your Rifle Accurising Services I was keen to see just how accurate it could be made - but it sounds like its not really worth pursuing. Given that I'm on a tight budget, and assuming I was keen to replace the T3 with something that was easier to optimise for long range shooting, can you recommend a couple of alternative rifle models as a starting point? |
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@ 09:27 pm (GMT) |
LongshotRe: Tikka T3 trouble shootingHey Tim, don't throw it in the scrub just yet.I'd be very surprised if it won't shoot 1/2 MOA with a handload that suits it or 1 MOA with factory ammo. It's only the odd one that's not a shooter, and mostly the larger magnums, most are great. I've got 2 Tikka T3's and for what they are I love them. |
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@ 09:27 pm (GMT) |
LongshotRe: Tikka T3 trouble shootingHey Tim, don't throw it in the scrub just yet.I'd be very surprised if it won't shoot 1/2 MOA with a handload that suits it or 1 MOA with factory ammo. It's only the odd one that's not a shooter, and mostly the larger magnums, most are great. I've got 2 Tikka T3's and for what they are I love them. |
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@ 08:53 am (GMT) |
Im2lazyRe: Tikka T3 trouble shootingThey must shoot well !!!!!Two people have said the same thing ;-) and they even have the same name. |
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@ 04:12 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Tikka T3 trouble shootingHi Tim, yes, don’t be too hasty. It is highly likely that your rifle will shoot between 11 and 12.5mm groups at 100 yards with either factory ammunition or basic load development. In my first post, I suggested that the T3 is difficult to accurise but please bare in mind, this is relative to the rectification of existing faults/ problem rifles. While the T3 is a cheap, mass produced sporters, Tikka make every effort to try and deliver an optimal product with the available funds.As far as problems being more associated with the magnums, this is not quite correct and the statement needs to be broken down and explained in more detail. We have had to bin a .223 Tactical Tikka barrel this year. I have also heard from a collegue who has come across a T3 in 7mm08 recently (I don’t know if it is a recent model rifle), suffering a gradually swelling chamber, no surprise considering there was a run of Sako and T3 rifles that suffered rupturing barrels a while back, this 7mm08 may well have been a part of that run. There is plenty of info about this online and people can find the serial numbers effected, although, it has mostly been up to hunters to investigate this for themselves as Beretta have made no attempt to aid awareness, apart from a phone line option. Regarding the Magnums, potential problems can be divided into three categories: 1. Actual faults in the steel, as can happen in any steel working process. 2. Recoil induced stress to the bedding platform and the lack of a good design to accommodate this recoil. 3. Recoil effecting the shooter’s ability to maintain POI due to the light weight of the rifle. These are 3 separate variables and as you will all be aware, the more variables a problem has, the more difficult it is to work through the problem. The last variable is very relative to your post Tim. You asked about the T3 for long range hunting. Because the T3 is extremely light, it is difficult to use with either extreme accuracy at long range or maintenance of point of aim (POI) at long range- when using the rifle away from a benchrest or prone/sandbagged test position. That said, I would not wish to criticise anyone who wishes to use the T3 in this manner. Having tutored many LR hunters, I have seen the difficulties involved with light weight long range rifles. There can be great difficulty maintaining POI with minor changes in shooting position when shooting prone, on varying terrain. I don’t get concerned too much with a light barrel walking from heat, though it can be a concern if the hunter intends on shooting long strings. When I am watching a client and I mean intently watching, its common to see minor, seemingly irrelevant changes in body position, arm position, head position, butt alignment- all having a detrimental effect on accuracy or POI. A shooter can study these things for themselves, they don’t need me, here on this forum, beating out this rhetoric. Take a T3 to the range, either over a bench or off the ground, shoot test groups and note how minor changes in shooter position have the ability to shift the POI by around 1 minute. Group size can also be altered by minor changes in technique. The next step is to then ‘see’ this in the field, when you are lying over odd terrain, can’t quite get an elbow into the right position etc. After a short period of your own research, you can determine whether A) yes, this is frustrating or B) yes I understand what Nate is saying but I believe I am ableto utilize repeatable technique regardless of terrain, I am actually doing quite OK and am happy to continue. Naturally, the heaver the rifle, the less effect each of these changes has on point of impact (POI) at long range. Legendary sniper Carlos Hathcock shared his own views in one interview, quoted below: “In all the schools I’ve given across this country, I’ve seen a lot of hodgepodge mess, from people who didn’t know what to use, so they used all kinds of stuff,” he snorted. “Light barrels... heck, after three shots, those bullets will go everywhere that you do not want them to go! You will never, ever qualify on my course with a light-barreled rifle…..” If you want to shoot the light T3 at long range, just be aware that you will have to maintain greater discipline than a person using a heavy barrelled rifle. There is no room for lax technique or the latest ‘cool’ shooting positions. You need to be ‘in the zone’ with each and every shot. On the plus side, you will develop good technique that will serve you well for your entire shooting career. Furthermore, you will be able to climb high with a light weight rig, with greater ease than if you were to carry a heavy barrelled rifle. I have seen South islanders climb vertical faces that would make many a hunter vomit with vertigo and shock, no ropes, just finger and toe holds. Some of these guys are such hard men that they will do this with a heavy barrelled rifle, slung over a day pack which shifts the hunter’s center of gravity away from its natural position. Other guys like to climb in this fashion but with an ultra light rifle to maintain center of gravity. Then there is me, halfway up the cliff and deciding that I don’t think I will ever be that hard, with or without a light weight rifle, time to climb down and boil the billy. So realistically, this in an incredibly long winded way of saying, try the rifle with good shooting technique and see how you get on. As to your question about a suitable LR rifle on a shoestring budget- If you want to buy a dedicated LR rifle on a budget in a smaller calibre, I would suggest the M700 SPS varmint in .308 Win. This gives you the basic M24 sniper rifle action and a barrel capable of sub .5MOA accuracy. The SPS varmint stock is soft and needs bedding for optimal accuracy. It can eventually be replaced with a glass stock. These are a fairly modular rifle design and for hunters on a budget, allow for upgrades to be made over the years. |
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@ 04:19 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Tikka T3 trouble shootingPics of ruptured barrels / destroyed rifles:http://www.thegunzone.com/rifles-kb.html |
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@ 05:42 pm (GMT) |
tim woodillRe: Tikka T3 trouble shootingThanks Nathan for the informative response. Can I add that I really like the website. Your comments in the optics forum reflect an awareness of the financial constraints affecting most of us that is refreshing (and appreciated!) |
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@ 11:40 pm (GMT) |
tim woodillRe: Tikka T3 trouble shootingJust thought I'd post an update. It hasn't been easy getting to the range - let alone going hunting - for the last few months (but new twins will do that to you).... I finally did get in a range day a week or so ago though and found that my Tikka T3 7mm-08 shot a .76" 3 shot group with Remington CoreLokt 140 grain, followed immediately after by a .84" group with Federal Speer Hotcor 150 grain. For factory ammo this seemed pretty good to me, as I'm sure my technique isn't perfect. So maybe I'm happy with my Tikka for now after all :-) |
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@ 07:43 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Tikka T3 trouble shootingHi Tim, thats fantastic, especially with factory ammunition that is in no way tailored to the rifle.The stats for my year show that the T3's have had the best bores of all the brands. Unfortunately, just about every other brand has really allowed quality to drop right off over the last 12 months. I find myself recommending the T3 more and more when it comes to choosing rifles chambered for short action cartridges. If the rifle is stainless / Synthetic: When you get a chance, please disassemble the rifle and grease (axle grease) the underside of the action to ensure the ali lug does not suffer a severe electrolysis reaction with the stainless action. Grease everything and recheck it once a year. If this is not done, the lug will corrode, leaving a white powder like a corroded car battery and accuracy will be lost. When you re-assemble the rifle, take care not to over tighten the screws. You can monitor this before disassembly, take a note of how the screws were torqued at the factory, this can be done by feel with care. |
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