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> Idaho Moose Hunt
Idaho Moose Hunt
@ 10:07 am (GMT) |
Calin BrabandtI finally drew a bull moose tag here in Idaho--only about 140km from my front door but a 2-1/2 hour+ drive to the unit, due to geography. I'm 64 so this will be a hunt of a lifetime for meI'm planning to use my 358 Norma (26" / 1:14 twist). I lack heavy bullets in my inventory but, in these times of scarcity, I managed to find a box of 250 gr. Partitions for about 100 USD (yikes). Should I bother to boy a box of 250 gr. Oryx while they are available? The Oryx is about the only other moose-suitable conventional bullets that I can find. With Woodleigh out of business after the fire, are these still of Woodleigh manufacture? https://normashooting.com/shop/caliber/reloading-components/bullets/358-caliber-358-250-gr-bonded-soft-point-norma-oryx-bullets-qty-50/ I can't even find any suitable Barnes bullets. Maybe Hawk bullets (conventional jacketed) or Hammer bullets (unconventional mono) would work too but I have no experience with them. A Hammer bullet would have to be relatively light (~200 gr) to achieve the recommended spin in my 1:14 barrel that's necessary to have reliable terminal stability (not ballistic stability but terminal stability to not veer or tumble. That's just how Hammer bullets reportedly work as they shed their petals and the shank penetrates, but plenty of people swear by them in online forums, if the go light and go fast usage model is adhered-to! I also have a 338 RCM (a short 20" barrel and nimble rifle) and 338 Win Mag rifle (26"), along with an inventory of 225 Hornady Interbond (Midway blems), 250 gr. Barnes TSX and 250 gr. Banded solids. The RCM might be a good backup, if I get tired of lugging the heavy 358 Norma around. The RCM with 250 gr. Barnes is not a long range rifle. I need to start scouting soon to determine if that's at all a big deal for this hunt. Probably not. Thanks, -Cal |
Replies
@ 07:31 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Idaho Moose HuntHi Calin, it depends on the terrain. If shots are expected in semi open terrain such as cross valley etc, then the Partition will be the go in the .358. But for the tight stuff, the bonded Oryx (made by Norma / designed for Moose) is a good option. I have written more about this bullet here:https://www.norma-ammunition.com/en-gb/norma-academy/dedicated-hunting/ammunition/effective-game-killing Part 2 (shot placement etc): https://www.norma-ammunition.com/en-us/norma-academy/dedicated-hunting/ammunition/effective-game-killing-part-2 The Hammer would be OK, it is no miracle bullet, performance identical to the old GSC Custom design and with the same limitations - see email exchange in recent thread under title White tail and black bear, fast killing monos. A lightweight TSX can also work. Both are good options for people who don't want their grandkids to own firearms in the future. |
@ 08:41 am (GMT) |
Jake CareyRe: Idaho Moose HuntCal, congratulations from a Utah neighbor. Very neat tag.I don't have firsthand knowledge but I grew up in Maine and knew lots of people who had shot moose with rifles. Some legal, some not. Basically the sum of what I know is that they're not especially hard to kill but there are some pretty emphatic guidelines. As long as they're met moose tend to be pretty willing to croak. Bullet mass above 180 grains and decent SD seems to be important, much more so than speed. Brisket and quartering shots are a very risky proposition with any outfit. Moose are long from the rear and their forward bones are very resilient. At the same time normal deer bullets put them down with lung and liver shots faster than they do on deer. Basically they are tough and weak at the same time. Huge windows of vulnerability surrounded by really bad options due to sheer body size or bone mass. Most kills are at least slightly delayed by Nathan's standards due to this. It's not that people don't want to or don't try to make CNS shots, or that they are dedicated to meat saving: it's that you go from common, cheap ammo being 100 percent viable to requiring dangerous game levels of penetration. I suspect this is compounded by the ranges that moose are normally shot at. Bullets are still going very fast when they hit a moose almost all the time. This is not to say they can't be seen in the open in Idaho, I just know where I've walked up on them in Maine and now in Utah. basically 180+ grain deer bullets out of 308 and 30-06 put them to sleep in steps if shot in the lungs. 180 and 220 grain corelokts probably killed most of the moose that died in New England in the 20th century. 7mm rem mags are responsible for longer delays from what I've seen because people count on their speed too much. Of course someone takes his kid out every year with a 30-30 or 243 or 6.5 bodice-ripper, and while I think that's obnoxious a lot of moose do get killed cleanly with light calibers because the lungs really are that good of a target. My grandfather's favorite was his service revolver in the ear while on duty. he was not a cool or honorable man. Any 35 caliber is probably fantastic but I'm in my thirties and would not take a 26" barreled rifle where moose live. I bet the rcm might be your ticket but I would spend a lot more time rereading Nathan's writing about 338 projectiles before I took one after moose. It's likely you already have the best bullet for the job but I don't know of any bullet that solves the all the problems that moose have. Somewhere a Barnes fanboy is having a seizure I'm sure, but I wouldn't trust one as a one-bullet solution for coast to coast shooting on moose, at least humanely. I really hope folks have more to say because, again, I've never shot a moose. I know lots of people who have, so I don't have to guess as much as most people. I know that a 30-05 isn't underkill or unethical, and I also know that I don't want to fire the gun that can take front quartering shots. I'll happily do it on an elk this year with care and consideration but I can't overemphasize how big and hard moose are from the front. I hope to hear more. |
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@ 06:16 pm (GMT) |
Calin BrabandtRe: Idaho Moose HuntQuote: Hi Calin, it depends on the terrain. If shots are expected in semi open terrain such as cross valley etc, then the Partition will be the go in the .358. But for the tight stuff, the bonded Oryx (made by Norma / designed for Moose) is a good option.
Thanks for your help, Nathan. According to my neighbor, who has an Idaho Boone and Crockett moose on his wall along with the B&C award plaque, a short range shot will be the most likely, but maybe I can hunt with dual 358 Norma loads—250 gr. Oryx and 250 gr. Partition just in case. My neighbor has an even larger Alaskan moose on the the wall too and, given that's he's tagged out in this lifetime for Idaho moose, he's eager to help me scout and, hopefully, pack out meat! He agrees with your thumbs-up on the 358 Norma cartridge and Oryx. I think he mentioned that his Alaskan moose soaked-up an excessive amount of well-placed lead into the shoulder and lungs from a 7mm RUM, like it wasn't even shot, so he used an H&H 375 for his Idaho moose the next time and it was down with one shot. He told me he doesn't care how much power a 7mm RUM has; 7mm is too small for moose! I ordered both the 250 gr. 358 cal. Oryx and 230 gr. 338 cal. Oryx bullets from Normashooting.com (Norma’s official online store.) I also ordered a bunch of different .177 and .22 cal. Norma airgun pellets that I've been meaning to try and they were on sale. I think they’ll be a little light for moose though! I might use my M70 338 Win Mag or Ruger M77 Hawkeye 338 RCM as backup. The 20” RCM appeals to me as a short and nimble alternative to the heavier and longer 338 Norma, though the RCM comes with a cost in performance, of course. I’m also interested in bedding the M77 Hawkeye (and its mate, an RCM 300). Might your Ruger M77 Mk II bedding video provide additional information that I’d find to be useful? Your accurizing book and website information is very good but I’m interested in purchasing Part 3 and Part 4 of the Tikka rifle series. Axis II rifles have Boyds laminate stocks so probably only need to view parts 3 and 4. Quote: I have written more about this bullet here: https://www.norma-ammunition.com/en-gb/norma-academy/dedicated-hunting/ammunition/effective-game-killing Part 2 (shot placement etc): https://www.norma-ammunition.com/en-us/norma-academy/dedicated-hunting/ammunition/effective-game-killing-part-2 I’d forgotten about those articles that you wrote for Norma, Nathan, so I re-read them and I read the other three Norma moose articles too (“Bullet Selection”, “Shot Placement” and “Things to Think About”). Quote: The Hammer would be OK, it is no miracle bullet, performance identical to the old GSC Custom design and with the same limitations - see email exchange in recent thread under title White tail and black bear, fast killing monos. A lightweight TSX can also work. Both are good options for people who don't want their grandkids to own firearms in the future.
Yes. It’s like electric cars. They are good options for people who don’t want their grandkids to own cars or drive in the future. Good thread, but the best part was Steph’s posts! Please tell her that’s she’s got a choir here to post-to anytime! Quote: Cal, congratulations from a Utah neighbor. Very neat tag.
Thanks, Jake! It’s not an Alaskan moose tag but, as with aviation, where I think Idaho flying is perhaps second best to only Alaska within the U.S., I also think Idaho might be second best to Alaska for moose hunts. (Though I’ve visited Maine and flown around there a little bit, I’ve never lived there or spent much time I could be wrong about Idaho moose hunts.) Quote: I don't have firsthand knowledge but I grew up in Maine and knew lots of people who had shot moose with rifles. Some legal, some not. Basically the sum of what I know is that they're not especially hard to kill but there are some pretty emphatic guidelines. As long as they're met moose tend to be pretty willing to croak. Bullet mass above 180 grains and decent SD seems to be important, much more so than speed. Brisket and quartering shots are a very risky proposition with any outfit. Moose are long from the rear and their forward bones are very resilient. At the same time normal deer bullets put them down with lung and liver shots faster than they do on deer. Basically they are tough and weak at the same time. Huge windows of vulnerability surrounded by really bad options due to sheer body size or bone mass. Most kills are at least slightly delayed by Nathan's standards due to this. It's not that people don't want to or don't try to make CNS shots, or that they are dedicated to meat saving: it's that you go from common, cheap ammo being 100 percent viable to requiring dangerous game levels of penetration. I suspect this is compounded by the ranges that moose are normally shot at. Bullets are still going very fast when they hit a moose almost all the time. This is not to say they can't be seen in the open in Idaho, I just know where I've walked up on them in Maine and now in Utah.
basically 180+ grain deer bullets out of 308 and 30-06 put them to sleep in steps if shot in the lungs. If I end up hunting with 30 cal. as a backup, it will probably be my 300 PRC and 180 gr. Minimum. Quote: 180 and 220 grain corelokts probably killed most of the moose that died in New England in the 20th century. 7mm rem mags are responsible for longer delays from what I've seen because people count on their speed too much. Of course someone takes his kid out every year with a 30-30 or 243 or 6.5 bodice-ripper, and while I think that's obnoxious a lot of moose do get killed cleanly with light calibers because the lungs really are that good of a target. My grandfather's favorite was his service revolver in the ear while on duty. he was not a cool or honorable man. Any 35 caliber is probably fantastic but I'm in my thirties and would not take a 26" barreled rifle where moose live. I bet the rcm might be your ticket but I would spend a lot more time rereading Nathan's writing about 338 projectiles before I took one after moose. I think 338 is a big step down in performance from 358, in general, and my 358 has a 26” barrel vs. the RCM 20”. I ran some Quickload internal and external ballistic scenarios and the RCM costs me about 65 yards with both rifles using Oryx bullets, so Maybe something like 300 yards tops with the 358 vs. 235 with the RCM. I’ll have to see how the loads work out and I’m also very interested in trying RL17 with both cartridges. It’s right in middle of the various 4135 powders in burn rate and it tends to be a higher energy powder in my experience. Quickload predicts that only ReloadSwiss RS76 is a touch better than RL17 for velocity and I’ve not seen it available in the U.S. in a few years. I have a pound of Accurate 4135, which would probably work well, but no IMR or Hodgdon and it’s not like it’s on every reloading supplies vendor’s shelf these days! Quote: It's likely you already have the best bullet for the job but I don't know of any bullet that solves the all the problems that moose have. Somewhere a Barnes fanboy is having a seizure I'm sure, but I wouldn't trust one as a one-bullet solution for coast to coast shooting on moose, at least humanely. I think the problem with Barnes monos is they need to be flying fast to word well—moose or otherwise. I have some 210 gr. 338 TSX bullets, but I’d probably only consider them in from my 26” 338 Win Mag. The 20” RCM just has too much of a speed disadvantage, though the factory Hornady Superformance RCM ammo can run surprisingly close to regular barrel lenght Win Mag velocities. I actually have some 180 gr. Interbond Superformance 300 RCM, but all my 338 RCM Superformance factory ammo is loaded with 225 SST bullets.
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