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> Something Different -A Rafting Trip/Bear Hunting Rifle
Something Different -A Rafting Trip/Bear Hunting Rifle
@ 08:44 pm (GMT) |
Luke SchmidtThanks to Nathan's advice I have put together a 375 Ruger for Alaskan hunting. It still needs a few tweaks over the winter but its basically sound and it covers my moose/bear hunting needs.The problem is I have another hobby which is packrafting. This involves hiking to remote rivers with a backpacking kit plus a rafting kit. Even if you pack light this is a heavy sport. I would like a light rifle I could take on such a trip so I could hunt the mountains and raft out a river. For such a trip weight is at a premium but i want a bear stopper so the normal ultralight mountain rifles don't quit fit the bill. I've considere several options. 1. A takedown Browning BLR in either 450 Marlin or 300 Win Mag. I'm not in love with the BLR and I don't like the caliber options so probably not. The new Winchester 450 takedown is too expensive for such a specialty gun. 2. A short and light lever action, probably a Model 94 in 444 or 450 Marlin. Thse are expenive and short ranged. 3. My final plan is a short barrel medium bore such as the 35 Whelen. Based on my math a 35 Whelen with a 18-20 inch barrel would still give mw more reach then a big bore lever actuon. So with a that background here is my plan. I will purchase a Savage bolt action used and rebarrel it to 35 Whelen with a 18-2 inch barrel. I'll stick a 1-4 power scope on top and accurize per Nathan's instructions. I'm aiming for a ready to go weight of about 7-7.5 pounds. I figure such a rifle could handle a bear to 150 yards and non-,dangerous stuff to more like 250 with the right loads. It will be a lot easier to carry and strap on a raft than mt big 375. I know this isn't an optimal design but I think it still beats a lever action. If i take a young friend caribou hunting I can also load some light smmo to 35 Rem or 358 levels to have a descent kid gun. Any thoughts? The other idea is to cut another 375 down to carbine length and to handload it a bit lighter. A Browning A bolt in 375 with a shortened barrel might do the trick. I'm thinking lightish loads wirh 235 gr TSX bullets woyld work on bears and 235 gr GK rounds would work on everything else. Thoughts? Has anyone built a short 35 Whelen? |
Replies
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@ 10:54 am (GMT) |
Luke SchmidtRe: Something Different -A Rafting Trip/Bear Hunting RifleNathan my buddy has a Tikka 338 Federal. It is a nice rifle. I actually looked into a 9.3x62 carbine but they are hard to find even when I shop the entire USA. I think because rhe 45-70 is popular as a big bore "brush gun" there isn't much interest in big bore bolt action carbines here.I did find a Savage 111 rebored to 9.3x62 for a good price. I have not bought it but I'm tempted. I've also looked at the 350 Remington Magnum. |
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@ 11:15 am (GMT) |
Luke SchmidtRe: Something Different -A Rafting Trip/Bear Hunting RifleI will add that I'll use the 9.3x62 Tikka carbine as a rough guideline for how light I can go even if I can't get a Tikka. I'm researching how much a 35 Whelen conversion would weigh to make sure its lighter than my 375 but not too light. Also looking at stock options for different actions. |
@ 08:46 am (GMT) |
Calin BrabandtRe: Something Different -A Rafting Trip/Bear Hunting RifleQuote: Since you have a good bear stopper in your Ruger Alaskan 375 why don't you just buy a McMillan fiberglass stock for that? With the edge fill (ultralight) you would probably save a pound of weight over the Ruger laminate stock.
<snip> A few years ago, I got a custom A3 Sporter Edge fill stock for my 338 Win Mag M70 (it was "custom" because they had to make a mold for my M70, which isn't a standard A3 Sporter application) and they told me the 300 Win Mag was the limit for an Edge stock. The limitation was okay with me, because I never intended to use the stock with my 338 Win Mag barrel before converting the rifle to 7mm-300 RCM with a 28" Palma profile barrel, which recoils less than the 300 Win Mag limit. I don't know if McMillan is still advising this limit for the Edge fill stocks, but the regular McMillan fiberglass stocks are still nice and fairly light! BTW, I have the reamers but still haven't found the time to chamber my Krieger Palma barrel in 7mm-300 RCM. I have a lifetime supply of RCM brass and plan to shoot long bullets at gongs at over 1000 yards. Hence, the long action and the chamber will be long throated with the 1:8 twist barrel. |
@ 09:44 am (GMT) |
Bryan WebsterRe: Something Different -A Rafting Trip/Bear Hunting RifleHello Luke.I have shot a pile of grizzly bear over the years on the job. Many were taken under unsettling circumstances with a featherweight Winchester in 30/06 sporting a 4X scope. Never had an issue due to the caliber. Used 180 grain and up - often round nosed bullets but also Nosler partitions. Did a lot of river travelling with it in a canoe hunting as well as on the coastal waters fishing. Talking to many people over the years I noted many felt like yourself that a more potent rifle was needed, and while I do not disagree totally, I also felt that selecting the rifle and caliber was more part of the adventure and was often not so much overthinkinfg things. If you started with the above rifle or Nathan's idea on the Tikka lite in 30/06, you could at any time change the barrel over to a 22 inch in 35 Whelen, even cutting it down shorter to best suit your purpose. Travel safe. |
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@ 10:19 am (GMT) |
Bryan WebsterRe: Something Different -A Rafting Trip/Bear Hunting RifleJust adding yet another option. A guide who used to take many bear hunters a year out used to pack nothing but a peep-sighted Model 600 Remington in .350 Rem Mag caliber. Lighter than most rifles, and dropped big ticked off bear very well indeed. No longer made, they can still be found on the used markets. I should add that this fellow had more close calls than any person I know but wasnever faltered or hurt...never lost an overly taxed client either.After moving up to Northeastern BC, I noted that some guide-outfitters and their assistant guides were packing heavier rifles for grizzly issues, but few used much more than a 30/06. I also recall seeing more 30/06 Winchester model 70 rifles among the rifles they took afield. Now that we can no longer hunt grizzly bear here in BC, the bears come running at the sound of a moose or elk being shot, and are often quite aggressive, so that a lot more of the outfitters appear to be packing heavier calibers because of the many close calls, but then all their hunts are in wilderness areas and have the benefit of having a horse pack these rifles. When travelling coastal waters, most grizzly bear I saw were paying attention to salmon and not much at all on people. But then one never knows what is gong on in that tiny brain... I hope these ramblings help some. |
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@ 12:04 pm (GMT) |
Luke SchmidtRe: Something Different -A Rafting Trip/Bear Hunting RifleThanks Bryan, hats off for good shooting. While I'm sure I could do the job wirh a 30-06 I normally hunt solo so I would feel better with a bit morw omph. Also cutting the barrel short means I'm dealing with lower velocity so bigger bore seems to mske sense.I have been very tempted by a couple of 350 Remington Magnums. What keeps holding me back is the fact that ammo or even brass is hard to find. I know I could reform 7mm Magnum brass but it looks like a time consuming process. If I see one I like enough I might go for it but if I'm doing a project gun I'll start with the Whelen. |
@ 01:07 pm (GMT) |
Stuart TalbotRe: Something Different -A Rafting Trip/Bear Hunting RifleYou already mentioned a scout set up, which is what I'm thinking. Why not keep it to the 375 Ruger, but brake it? I know it will be obnoxiously loud, but you'll get to use the same ammo. I'm a fan of keeping it simple. You can always have the same ammo on you, just in a slightly different platform.Or, if looking for a different cartridge, building a scout in .338 Federal. Dunno. Always makes it fun, putting together a new package. |
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@ 02:12 pm (GMT) |
Luke SchmidtRe: Something Different -A Rafting Trip/Bear Hunting RifleStuart just shortening my 375 is an option. The issue is break or no break I can't gwt the rifle much lighter then it already is (right around 9 pounds). The appeal of a 35 Whelen or 350 Remington is not that it kicks less but that I can house it in a lighter rifle/stock combo.I thought about a 338 Federal or 358 Winchester. But going through the KB I keep coming to the conclusion that they might be marginal on a bear. As part of my work with kids I'm certified as a "Bear Guard." That training involved seeing some unpublished photos of what a bear will do to you (very nasty), along with eye opening drills with handguns and shotguns that show you just how hard it can be to drop a ticked off bear. I'm not inclined to tackle a bear with something that only works if I make no mistakes. |
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@ 02:56 pm (GMT) |
Stuart TalbotRe: Something Different -A Rafting Trip/Bear Hunting RifleUnderstand completely! My next venture into bear country, I intend to have a shoulder fired howitzer! Those guys are the top of the food chain. |
@ 05:54 pm (GMT) |
Luke LahdenrantaRe: Something Different -A Rafting Trip/Bear Hunting RifleOne thing I noticed with the Tikka T3 is that as an average size amd height guy 5'11"" I really don't like that 14" lop on them especially after I add a heavy jacket and back pack straps I find that it's really too long and slows down my shouldering of the rifle noticeably.One option that popped into mind as a turnkey 7ish lb 35 Whelen is how about a Remington 7600 pump in 35 Whelen? Not stainless but you could get it cerakoted if you wanted for weather protection and could dock barrel to 18 or 20". Could make for a dandy bear gun and pretty easy to find. I have one in 30-06 and it's a dandy rifle to carry in bear country or woods hunting. |
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@ 08:13 pm (GMT) |
Luke SchmidtRe: Something Different -A Rafting Trip/Bear Hunting RifleSo a quick update on this project. After some unexpected bills I don't think I can justify the $1000+ it would probably cost to do this project right, maybe later.Here is Plan B. I will lighten my 375 Ruger a bit. Here are the ideas. 1. Trim the barrel back to 18 inches which saves 2-3 oz and is cheap. 2. Replace the scope with a red dot mounted using a single quick detach scope ring. Saves about 3-4 oz and is smaller. 3. Replace the current Hogue stock with a factory plastic stock I have laying around. This saves 6-8 oz, I can't remember exactly. All that together saves plenty of weight for a bear gun. The only issue is the Ruger plastic stock designed for 338 or smaller calibers might crack under full on recoil. So I will need to load it a bit lighter to be safe. I did some math and I can drive a 235 bullet at about 2750 fps. The recoil should not be that much greater than a hot 338 or 300 so I think the stock will hold up. At 150 yards the impact velocity will be just over 2200 fps. That is as far as I'll shoot a bear. At 300 yards impact is just over 1800 so I can shoot moose/caribou that far. Thoughts? I'm thinking maybe try to get loads with the 235 gr TSX and 235 GK for bears and caribou respectively.If I'm loading low I don't think going witb heavier bullets makes as much sense. |
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@ 08:13 pm (GMT) |
Luke SchmidtRe: Something Different -A Rafting Trip/Bear Hunting RifleSo a quick update on this project. After some unexpected bills I don't think I can justify the $1000+ it would probably cost to do this project right, maybe later.Here is Plan B. I will lighten my 375 Ruger a bit. Here are the ideas. 1. Trim the barrel back to 18 inches which saves 2-3 oz and is cheap. 2. Replace the scope with a red dot mounted using a single quick detach scope ring. Saves about 3-4 oz and is smaller. 3. Replace the current Hogue stock with a factory plastic stock I have laying around. This saves 6-8 oz, I can't remember exactly. All that together saves plenty of weight for a bear gun. The only issue is the Ruger plastic stock designed for 338 or smaller calibers might crack under full on recoil. So I will need to load it a bit lighter to be safe. I did some math and I can drive a 235 bullet at about 2750 fps. The recoil should not be that much greater than a hot 338 or 300 so I think the stock will hold up. At 150 yards the impact velocity will be just over 2200 fps. That is as far as I'll shoot a bear. At 300 yards impact is just over 1800 so I can shoot moose/caribou that far. Thoughts? I'm thinking maybe try to get loads with the 235 gr TSX and 235 GK for bears and caribou respectively.If I'm loading low I don't think going witb heavier bullets makes as much sense. |
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@ 08:33 am (GMT) |
Calin BrabandtRe: Something Different -A Rafting Trip/Bear Hunting RifleQuote: <snip>....
As part of my work with kids I'm certified as a "Bear Guard." That training involved seeing some unpublished photos of what a bear will do to you (very nasty), along with eye opening drills with handguns and shotguns that show you just how hard it can be to drop a ticked off bear. I'm not inclined to tackle a bear with something that only works if I make no mistakes. Here's some "training" material. This bear attack victim made some mistakes for sure, but that doesn't dilute the message I take away from the read! https://www.alloutdoor.com/2018/09/14/glock-20-ends-bear-attack-just-barely I live in bear country and usually carry my SRH in 480 Ruger with heavy hard cast loads. (Of course I'd rather have a heavy caliber rifle, but they are too much to carry everywhere and they often end up leaning against a tree when at camp.) I currently carry this 7.5" barreled revolver on my hip in a Bianchi holster, but have often thought about designing a break away chest rig that would enable a dual handed draw (would have to practice) of bear spray in my left hand and my SRH revolver in my right (strong side) hand without the need to "clear leather." Unless a projectile falls into the regions of drop-them-now physiology that Nathan has discussed in his blog, I think the bear spray is more persuasive and I'd like to have both options. A dual draw could potentially enable immediate single handed shots, if a bear charges past the spray (and at close range too, where one is more likely to take out the attacking bear's central nervous system :-O). One could shoot first and spray later, but I wonder if a wounded bear might not respond to spray. Bear defense stories are a lot like gun fight accounts; there just aren't all that many people possessing a good body of valid personal experience. |
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@ 08:40 am (GMT) |
Calin BrabandtRe: Something Different -A Rafting Trip/Bear Hunting RifleA little addendum here.>A dual draw could potentially enable immediate single handed shots Actually--it enables virtually immediate two-handed strong side shots with the hand gun too; spray from the weak hand, drop the can, and then join the strong side hand for shooting. If I ever design this chest rig, I'll buy a bunch of expired bear spray cans for test and practice. |
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@ 10:29 am (GMT) |
Luke SchmidtRe: Something Different -A Rafting Trip/Bear Hunting RifleCalin where are you located? We might need to meet for a range day if you are in Alaska. But greart minds think alike I have a similar system and philosophy.Shooting at a moving target on wheels drove home how hard it is for even a descent pistol shot to get a solid hit on a moving bears vitals. So I prefer bear spray as a first resort if I'm not hunting. It is not perfect but I'm a lot more confident spraying then shooting. It also saves the hassle of reporting a bear killing to the authorities. My current rig is an Alaska Gunfighters kydex chest holster. It carries my Model 69 44 mag quiet comfortablely. It works well when I'm backpacking and on river trips it keeps the gun up away from most splashing. I personally carry the spray on my hip. Its more comfortable there. If I have stand off distance the spray is the preferred choice. If a bear is too close to spray/already on top of me I go straight to the 44. Since I doubt the "drop them now" ability of a 44 I'm starting to carry my Glock 29 10mm more. I know I can shoot in more accurately and about 40% fastee so the argument is for more hits even if a bit smaller. |
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@ 01:34 pm (GMT) |
Calin BrabandtRe: Something Different -A Rafting Trip/Bear Hunting RifleQuote: Calin where are you located?...<snip>
Luke, I wish we could meet for a range day, but I live in N. Idaho, the next best place to Alaska! Though to be fair to the Kiwis here, I've only visited the North Island, including Urenui when touring down Highway 3 on my honeymoon, but not the South Island. I wish my wife and I might have had more time to spend in New Zealand. I first visited Alaska over 40 years ago via the Alcan and my motorcycle as a teenager. A buddy of mine and I rode 400cc Hondas up and back--7200 miles, including many side excursions). Since then, I've flown to AK in my job (DC-8 cargo and USPS mail runs from Seattle to Anchorage) and visited for pleasure many times in small aircraft, including an RV6 two-place homebuilt all the way to Barrow on one trip and camping at various USFS cabin strips in Southeast other times. I've never been out west to Nome or down to Kodiak or the Aleutians. I'd live in Alaska, but Idaho works out better for my wife and our 13-year old daughter. Sadly, I've never been on an Alaskan hunt either. I run into a bunch of Alaskan in Idaho. Let me know if you make it "outside" very often and I'll try to meet up with you. |
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@ 05:26 am (GMT) |
Bryan WebsterRe: Something Different -A Rafting Trip/Bear Hunting RifleQuote: You already mentioned a scout set up, which is what I'm thinking. Why not keep it to the 375 Ruger, but brake it? I know it will be obnoxiously loud, but you'll get to use the same ammo. I'm a fan of keeping it simple. You can always have the same ammo on you, just in a slightly different platform.
Or, if looking for a different cartridge, building a scout in .338 Federal. Dunno. Always makes it fun, putting together a new package. Here is a decent article on the subject: https://www.chuckhawks.com/firearms_defense_bears.htm [b] |
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@ 04:15 pm (GMT) |
Luke SchmidtRe: Something Different -A Rafting Trip/Bear Hunting RifleSo I got creative with the original Hogue stock that came on my rifle (the pillar bedded one without the aluminium in the forend). The stock has very thick rubber on it. I shaved rubber off wirh a knife and file. Took about 4 oz off. This also made the stock more comfortable to hold. I have shorter fingers so I wasn't getting a great grip on the thick stock before.I weighted the recoil pad and its 4oz. I think I can make a lighter one that will be firmer and less likely to tear. And I'm still planning to trim the barrel to 18 inches saving about 3 oz. I'm thinking I can trim weight and get the rifle weight down to about 7.3 lbs and 8.25 pounds scoped. For now that might be light enough. I don't see a path to a significantly light rifle without A. spending a lot of money or B. Reloading another off beat cartridge like the 350 Remington. This will save me money and keep me using a proven rifle. If it works the 375 will remain the bear/brush gun. Money saved may eventually go to a Tikka 300 WSM or something similar for longer shots on caribou or sheep. I'll keep you updated on the project. |
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