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30-06 Ackley Imp.

15 Feb 2014
@ 07:09 pm (GMT)

Les Mulloy

G'day Everyone
I am a newy to this site - Must congratulate Nathan Foster on his site - I have been reading the discussion forums for some time and have decided to come and "play "- if allowed.

Does anybody use the 30-06 ackley imp. - I've just acquired one -Rem 700 with a 26 in barrel - Where I live they call this calibre " the poor man's magnum "- plan to use it for Sambar
Wish me luck if you like boys !!!

Replies

16 Feb 2014
@ 03:23 pm (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: 30-06 Ackley Imp.
Hi Les, welcome aboard.

Sounds like a good Sambar rig, the barrel length will hopefully help a bit in the velocity department in conjunction with the AI. You'll just have to see how this particular bore goes.

The one thing I try to encourage, is to try to remove exceptions when it comes to AI velocities. Sometimes Les, a bloke will chase velocities above all else, ruin his brass and have a generally piss poor rifle honeymoon ending in divorce. Velocity is one part of the equation, choosing the right bullet for the size game you are hunting, the anticiapated ranges / velocity parameters is key. Hopefully the Knowledge base will give you some ideas.

If you get a chance, may pay to enquire (through a major gun store) if there is any Hornady Superformance powder floating around. Burn rate is the same as 2213sc but kernal size is much smaller, about perfect for a .30-06 AI to be used on Sambar.
17 Feb 2014
@ 01:48 am (GMT)

Les Mulloy

Re: 30-06 Ackley Imp.
G'day Nathan

Really appreciate that advice.

I have a bedding question for you -- I have ordered your bedding compound.
Have also watched your bedding video several times - only concern I have is with the threaded rod guides into the king screw holes -- what precautions can I take to ensure the guide rods do not become stuck in the stock ??

To me it seems like a potential for " Murphy's Law" to strike ( again !!! )

Or should I let the missus worry about it !!!

Regards -- Les Mulloy
17 Feb 2014
@ 02:12 am (GMT)

Les Mulloy

Re: 30-06 Ackley Imp.
G'day again Nathan

I have just found the answer to my question in another post -- Drinking Straws !! brilliant .

My wife said " yeah that's what she would have done too " (ain't they good)
Les Mulloy
17 Feb 2014
@ 03:14 pm (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: 30-06 Ackley Imp.
Hi Les, glad you asked this rather than being shy about it.

The drinking straws act as guides only. The tops should be taped off. If the headless screws pass into the drinking straws, the job will go tits up because you will find that the straws stretch and get everything gets bound in the holes, next thing you are trying to force the action down into the mortice and it all turns to into a mess of epic proportions.

As the action is pushed down into the mortice, the straws go down, then drop out the bottom. They served as both guides and plugs.


In the tips and tricks vid, Steph does not use straws as guides but you need to have a good feel for where the holes are- even if you mark where they are located on the sides of the stock.

Here is what you need to know: Tape the headless screws- that is the key. Even if the tape gets bound in the job, the screws will unwind and leave the tape behind which will then be drilled out. I prefer to use masking tape on the screws rather than insulation tape.

make sure you leave some clearance between the taped screw and the holes in the action. If the fit is tight prior to applying the compound, you will find that it will get tighter once the compound is poured- it will be too tight. You need to allow a half mm gap all around (1mm total diameter).

Your wife would have worked out the above pretty quick, women are good like like that. Nevertheless, best I give a good explanation here than incur the wrath of two women for not explaining things properly!
17 Feb 2014
@ 08:16 pm (GMT)

Les Mulloy

Re: 30-06 Ackley Imp.
Thanks Nathan

All clear on what to do now - I really want to get my Ackley right first go -I could not stand the pain of a failure on this one.

Cheers -- Les
25 Feb 2014
@ 04:47 am (GMT)

Les Mulloy

Re: 30-06 Ackley Imp.
g"day Nathan
Compound arrived today - Instructions have alleviated all concerns - No luck with " Hornady Superperformance powder " they don't supply it as a component in Aust.
Fire formed 20 Winchester cases yesterday - used 155 sierra M.K - had to seat them well into the lands - they grouped just over 1" - I was happy with that. - Formed cases hold 62 gr of 2213sc to the neck /shoulder junction - so should have no probs with loads - 2209 went the same.
I will post some pics of before and after bedding in due course.

1 question Nathan - have you ever annealed Sierra match kings ?

Also !! some interesting articles in the Teranaki Daily pages in the box but some bugger had done most of the crosswords ????

Cheers --Les
25 Feb 2014
@ 03:00 pm (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: 30-06 Ackley Imp.
Hi Les, yes I have and results tend to be a bit mixed. As I wrote in the second book, sometimes we have little choice but to use a certain bullet such as the SMK if nothing else it at hand. Hence why I wrote the steps for modifications and preliminary testing procedures.

Just be a bit carful with that particular weight because you can go from one extreme to the other (pin hole to shallow penetration) due to low SD. Its OK for tipping over goats and such but can fail on pig shields and skulls.

The Nolser 155gr Palma bullet is much the same.

Regarding Sambar, have a play with the 180 or 200gr Partition if you get a chance once you are up and running.

You could also do load work with the 180gr Interlock flat base, then switch to the 180gr Partition with only limited load re-work.

Another couple of good basic cheap bullets which should still be floating around (just for general goat / pig / deer work at ordinary ranges) are the 150 and 165gr Interlock BTSP bullets. I would normally suggest the 165gr SST for your rig or an A-Max if you want to shoot long but these bullet are now as rare as hens teeth.

The second book has long range bullet considerations in greater detail.

Anyway, we are putting the cart before the horse as it is time for bedding, not load work. All the best with the bedding job Les. Give yourself plenty of time to do the job, work patiently, watch the tips and tricks vid as many times as you have to. Plenty of trial fits.

The mother in law did that crossword (her newspaper). We don't get the paper delivered, no need because if there is anything worth knowing,the mother in law will soon tell us. Do you remember Wally off Crocodile Dundee? Like that.

25 Feb 2014
@ 03:12 pm (GMT)

Bob Mavin

Re: 30-06 Ackley Imp.
G’day Les
If you trickle the powder down a drinking straw into the case, you’ll fit more powder in. What velocity were you getting. My rifle shoots best with the projectile seated 25th off the lands.
Cheers
Bob
25 Feb 2014
@ 03:12 pm (GMT)

Bob Mavin

Re: 30-06 Ackley Imp.
G’day Les
If you trickle the powder down a drinking straw into the case, you’ll fit more powder in. What velocity were you getting. My rifle shoots best with the projectile seated 25th off the lands.
Cheers
Bob
25 Feb 2014
@ 04:31 pm (GMT)

Martin Taylor

Re: 30-06 Ackley Imp.
G'day Les,
After Nathans advice I have used the 180g Partitions over 2209 in my 30-06 with great success on Sambar.

This season l have loaded some Woodleighs 180g PP's to try.
The 240g PP's will also get a run which l hope will reduce meat damage with the lower velocites but keep the knockdown power.
Any of these could be a good option with your extra case capacity, they are not cheap but well worth the coin!
Just thought l would throw some local proj's that are readily avalible to you!
Bob uses the Woodleighs and could tell you a lot more about their performance!

Cheers Marty
(ps. take your time with the bedding it's good fun!)
25 Feb 2014
@ 08:57 pm (GMT)

Les Mulloy

Re: 30-06 Ackley Imp.
Hi Nathan
Thanks for your information once again - I will order your book shortly instead of annoying you with random questions all the time - Bullet annealing is a whole new ball game to myself and my cohorts over here ( never new it was doable ) - ( and yes, we're 10 years behind are'nt we !! l.o.l ) - I thought heavier annealed SMK's could be the Duck's Nuts accuracy wise - I used 155's for fireforming only because I have a heap of them left from a long forgotten Full Bore incident / misadventure.

Cheers - Les


G'day Bob

Great to hear from you - Have no idea of the velocity - with the 155's , I loaded 56 gr of 2209 ( probably 2800 to 2850 ) - The winchester cases fireformed beautifully - I think they are some of the Aust made cases - they are very uniform weight wise - I used to own a Target Rifle in 30-06 Ackley and still have all the load tuning details from it - so hopefully I won't have to much trouble finding some accuracy with this one - the 155's shot around the inch with an untouched rifle - so hopefully my barrel is a goodun' - it's a Maddco 1 in 10 - 26 inch. The rifle weighs spot on 8 lb with scope - I just pray the barrel is not to light with full power loads - Which is why I am nervous about bedding it - up to the God's now I suppose - a big problem for me is range time - I work shift work - and we have been having heaps of very shitty windy days for the last 3 months - hard to jag a good day out.

Cheers -- Les
25 Feb 2014
@ 09:41 pm (GMT)

Les Mulloy

Re: 30-06 Ackley Imp.
G'day there Martin
Completely agree with the Woodleigh pp option - I have used them in a Marlin xl7 30.06 that I have - but have not landed a deer with them - I got hooked on Barnes projectiles for quite a while but never got better than 1.5 to 2 inch groups with any of them - I used to blame the 22 inch barrel - Woodleigh 165's shot .8 all day every day in my Marlin - but I considered the 165 a bit light for Sambar - I have been using Nathan's site to try and broaden my horizons as far as projectile types and performances go.- and have set off in a new direction with a custom rifle - Hope I don't fall off the edge of the earth with it.!!!

On the subject of Woodleigh's - I bought a box of 215 grain RN .303 a year or so ago - my scoped .303 sporter puts 3 shots into a 1 inch triangle shaped group - I know the velocity is only around 2200 but maybe I have reinvented the wheel ?? l.o.l.

Cheers -- Les
25 Feb 2014
@ 10:15 pm (GMT)

Bob Mavin

Re: 30-06 Ackley Imp.
G'day Les
Gee 8lb that's nice and light for a 26" barrel, my 30-06 Springfield is a Rem 700, 24" #3 1:12twist Maddco 8 1/4lb with scope. I'm using 61gn 2209 with 150 Woodleigh PP's 3020fps. instant kills on Samba with a high forward shoulder shot. 180's are better for raking shots. I haven’t found the need to go heavier than 180’s on Samba or cattle at less than 300yds. I’m using 180gn SST’s for long range shots. I wish I had bought a heap of projectiles a couple of years ago, triple the price now!!! I find I have to play with the seating depth with Woodleigh’s to get pinpoint accuracy but the worst group is still under 2” @100m. What stock have you got? I couldn’t find it in the posts. As for your light barrel, with normal hunting 2-3 quick shots won't heat up and cause a problem. We have a very light weight 308 with a little #2 Maddco 22" long. kicks the snot out of you but doesn't miss with just a few shots at a time.
Cheers
Bob
25 Feb 2014
@ 11:35 pm (GMT)

Martin Taylor

Re: 30-06 Ackley Imp.
Les l also run a XL7 30-06 and pillar bedded into a Boyds stock and it is a tack driver with a cool barrel! Raises a few eyebrows including mine!
It is used for stalking & shooting over the hounds where shot placement can be compromised by sapplings etc. But it is nice to be able to reach out with it if needed.

Bob how have you found the bruising with the 150's, the 180's make a lot of dog meat on the way through so that was my reason for trying a larger, slower projectile (but its just an Idea). I cannot fault the 180's performance and they are more forgiving as you mentioned.

Nathan what are your thoughts on using bigger slower pills for reducing meat damage/bruising?
26 Feb 2014
@ 05:23 am (GMT)

Les Mulloy

Re: 30-06 Ackley Imp.
Hi Bob
Yeah of all the reading and sussing I have been doing for the last 6 months - I am leaning towards 180 gr pills - Have ordered Nathan's book today, I will use it as a decision maker.

My rifle is a Rem 700 SPS ( stainless Left Hand ) Stock is black with grey hogue moulded inserts . I had a maddco barrel fitted - 1 in 10 twist 26 inch - I am using a Bushnell Elite 3-9 x 40 heavy plex reticle with the Firefly feature - I think the scope helped keep the weight down. I will wait for results before I lash out on something more xy - I would really love a Vixen with the German 4 Ret and Illuminated red dot. - but I want to make sure barrel harmonics are o.k. after bedding.
I owned a Remington Sportsman 78 in .308 until a month ago - sold it to raise cash for my Ackley. It had one of the best triggers I have ever encountered- a blind 4 + 1 magazine - 22 in barrel with 1 in 10 twist -weighed 3.4 kilo's - a gorgeous little thing - but it kicked like a 300 mag could not stand it off a bench.
26 Feb 2014
@ 05:50 am (GMT)

Les Mulloy

Re: 30-06 Ackley Imp.
Hi Martin

I bonded immeadiately with my XL7 - mine has a cammo stock - If they made them with 24 inch barrels - they would'nt keep up with the demand
- I have a clubmate with an xs7 in .223 - He is taking our Hunting Class Competition by storm - flogging everything.

Cheers -- Les
26 Feb 2014
@ 03:25 pm (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: 30-06 Ackley Imp.
Hi Marty, you asked about a heavy bullet to reduce meat damage.

If we put this into perspective, if disproportionate to caliber (wide) wounding is a function of fast killing with controlled expanding bullets (non frangible), then the lower the meat damage, the slower the kill. It is this conundrum that plagued the .270 Win cartridge for many years.

So the answer is yes, you could reduce bruising via decreased velocity providing you are using a controlled expanding bullet. Penetration is increased via both bullet weight (SD) and velocity reduction (target resistance). Whether this is a good thing depends on the build and tenacity of your quarry.

As we reduce velocity down to 2400-2200fps, we are kind of getting into the realm of the .30-30. We don't generally see heavily controlled expanding bullets for this cartridge as this tends to reduce wounding potential. Obviously, a heavy 220-240gr bullet in the .30-06 is quite different to the .30-30 170gr bullet weight in how it can be employed. All I am trying to do here is look at this from different angles.

I remember when the Winchester Failsafe bullet arrived on the scene. Several folk used the .300 Win Mag 180gr bullet on Victorian Sambar and became instant converts of the .375 H&H. These people blamed the .300 Win Mag and not the bullet as often happens. So we have to be a bit careful when it comes to bullet selection from the perspective of trading off wounding potential for meat recovery. That said, we can for instance trade off wounding potential and knowing that this is the case, opt for select shot placement while having realistic expectations of consequences.

Yet another point to consider is that a very heavy bullet cannot offer any more frontal area than its lighter counterpart. In the past I have seen men look at very long and heavy round nosed bullets and state- I bet this hits hard. But if you think about it, the heavy bullet cannot hit harder than a lighter bullet which due to its lower SD and momentum, meets more target resistance. The heavier bullet can only produce greater penetration.

I think things really go wrong when we set very unrealistic expectations.

If I use a heavy and slow moving bullet, I like to get in very close in order to maximize impact velocity and wounding potential, quite the opposite of what you are contemplating here.

In my ramblings here, we have now looked at this from several angles save one. The Barnes TSX can be used in a manner in which expansion is slightly delayed with much of its wounding potential occuring within vitals. Although I have excercised the usual caution in the KB regarding matching Barnes bullet weights to game weights, there is no reason why a 150gr TSX cannot be used on Sambar.

So to summarize, yes it can be done but shot placement becomes more critical if fast killing is to be expected in the absence of wide wounding.

Doesn't get any more long winded than that.

26 Feb 2014
@ 03:57 pm (GMT)

Bob Mavin

Re: 30-06 Ackley Imp.
G’day
I backed off a bit with the 150’s & 180’s still get a bit of meat damage but I’m using a normal 30-06. I aim for a high & bit forward shoulder to drop them on the spot. A heart shot does very little damage but they run, if you don’t have a dog with you, Samba are almost impossible to find. My favourite Samba rifle is a Sako L579 in 358 Winchester with a 6x Zeiss & McMillan stock, it’s a pleasure to us and a bloody hammer, does very little meat damage on Doe’s & yearlings, but hit a big hard Stag it’s a different story . Like shooting a watermelon compared to a lump of rock . Anyway there’s still heaps of good meat and you have to feed your dog. That’s the price you pay for extra velocity.
Cheers
Bob
26 Feb 2014
@ 05:36 pm (GMT)

Martin Taylor

Re: 30-06 Ackley Imp.
Thanks for the replys gents!
Lots to consider!
Quote:
If I use a heavy and slow moving bullet, I like to get in very close in order to maximize impact velocity and wounding potential, quite the opposite of what you are contemplating here.

This heavy for calibre load would only used whilst dogging, shots are mostly under 100 yards & more often 30-60 and running hard, so l consider that getting in fairly close! We had a few in the sapplings that almost called for bayonets to be fixed last season! Even stalking with all the regrowth around at the moment, shots well under 100 yards are very common.
What ranges where you looking at Nathan?

The guys l hunt with rate the 200/220 partitions in the 30-06 for this type of hunting as unbeatable and being backed with 40 years experiance l respect that call. The big problem is availability here.
Woodleighs being made here in Aust. have good stocks and are very easy to deal with. They list the 240 pp for use in both the 308 & 30-06.
But as l said this is only an Idea and your thoughts are greatly appreciated!

Cheers Marty
26 Feb 2014
@ 06:05 pm (GMT)

Les Mulloy

Re: 30-06 Ackley Imp.
Good morning Bob
Yeah I once looked at a .358 win - Then I got the hots for a .325 wsm - then a Ruger compact magnum - Then I started sleeping less and less due to the constant flow of new ideas. - I could not decide weather to hit Sambar with a ton of feathers or a ton of bricks if you get my drift.
Luckily I have a very good Female Accountant, who has a stare that is fatal even to Rhinoceros. I got my wings trimmed with the axe.i

Sometimes I think it would be easier just to go to " The Pub " and play snooker like everyone else.!!!!

s.y.l.--Les
26 Feb 2014
@ 06:36 pm (GMT)

Bob Mavin

Re: 30-06 Ackley Imp.
G'day Les
My Safe is trimmed back heaps to a Brno 22 rim, 6mm Remington, 30-06, 358 Winchester & a 12g shotgun. The 6mm, 30-06 & 358 are custom built rifles and should cover everything in Australia. I’ve stocked up on projectiles brass etc as its only going to get harder to get!
The Fallow sould be starting to croak!!!
Cheers
Bob
26 Feb 2014
@ 08:08 pm (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: 30-06 Ackley Imp.
Hi Marty, this takes us back to my second book. A bullet that is capable of some weight loss can utilize mechanical wounding at low velocity. A bullet that is core bonded and retains most of its weight is reliant on disproportinate to caliber wounding. Two very different mechanisms.

Hence why, if I am using a Woodleigh, I like to get inside 100 yards if possible. But obviously it depends on muzzle velocities and bore size versus game size. This discussion is near to being split in two because Bob is talking about a .358 Woodleigh bullet which behaves somewhat differently to a .30 cal bullet as far as the hydrostatic shock cut off point is concerned (yet another factor). In other words, the wider bullet works better at lower impact velocities.

Here are some terrible gross generalizations for you:

Woodleigh in small bores works best above impact velocity 2600fps with 2400fps as a cut off point (fast killing with regard to Sambar and needing dogs to track if killing clean but delayed).

Increase bore diameter and we can decrease impact velocity and say that the Woodleigh now works best above 2200fps with 2000fps cut off point.

Increase game weight to scrub bull and we are back to 2600 and 2400fps again.

It is very straight forwards once you get into it and have taken a large number of animals with the Woodleigh. These comments are much the same for other core bonded designs, the trouble being that many are not as reliable on tough or heavy game as the Woodleigh.

Just bear in mind that the above comments are terrible gross generalizations. I would not want to offend the people working so hard at Woodleigh by stating that my test results show better performance at higher velocities than stated on their website. Nevertheless, Woodleigh state that their bullets expand well at e.g 1900fps. They make no claim to their bullets being at their best (killing) at low velocities. So hopefully my comments do not run counter to Woodleighs advertising and intentions. Ultimately, they are offering a bullet that will expand at e.g 1900fps and create for example a .5", .75" or 1" internal wound etc depending on caliber. This can mean "clean but delayed killing" if shot placement is outside of the CNS / autonomic plexus etc.

I also prefer the round nosed bullets and am happy to drive them above their rated impact velocities in order to maximize wounding potential. I do not care so much how much shank has been retained providing I have matched the bullet weight to game weight and have achieved acceptable penetration. It is important to understand that the PP and RN do produce noticeably different results as far as speed of killing goes, especially on lean animals and at lower impact velocities. The two designs are quite different and I am happy to sacrifice a few inches of penetration with the RN bullet in order to gain increased hydrostatic shock (basically increased nervous trauma)

Am I waffling here or is this of any use to you guys? Am a bit worried I have gone down the intellectual rabbit hole.
26 Feb 2014
@ 08:59 pm (GMT)

Martin Taylor

Re: 30-06 Ackley Imp.
No mate still with you!

I have re-read your "referance books" as l call them many times just to catch bits l have lost in the grey matter!

I was going to pm you with these questions but thought others may be helped with my ramblings! I have had to take many differant options with my loads (as we have discussed) due in inavalibilty of components and l'm not alone with that.
Having a range of these projectiles to try and the game to test them on is not an option for myself or many others l would think, which is why forums like this help so much.

The .358 bore is what l am working towards as you know but just trying to tweek the ever versatile 30-06 a little for now by throwing some Ideas in the ring.

Cheers Marty
26 Feb 2014
@ 11:51 pm (GMT)

Les Mulloy

Re: 30-06 Ackley Imp.
Hi Nathan
I would like to add a ditto to Martin's message.
It is not very often that a person who has " Deer Disease " can access information and ideas from like minded people, to the extent that this site allows - Even if only to confirm the thoughts and opinions of oneself - it is often reassuring to discover that a plan you have in regards to the equipment one is using is somewhere within the realms of reality and effectiveness.
As I have discovered ( the hard way ) If one goes afield without complete confidence in the gear he is using- self doubt and buck fever will be a short step away - instead of bringing home venison for the freezer - all one will encounter is sandshoes and shit ( from the deer you missed ).

Please excuse me now as I have to get the sermon written for church this Sunday!!




27 Feb 2014
@ 05:22 pm (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: 30-06 Ackley Imp.
Thanks Marty and Les, much appreciated.
 

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