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> 175 eld x length problems 7mm practical
175 eld x length problems 7mm practical
@ 07:42 pm (GMT) |
Greg QuickSo I just loaded my first batch of 175 eldx 's and with starting 40 thou. Off the lands I'm about 20-30 thou. Longer than my asic Remington 700 mag. Haven't done my initial testing but If my rifle wants them tight to the lands I'm kind of screwed unless I either replace the detachable mag with a BDL floor plate or just run the 162 grain eld m's. I haven't verified the post I've seen about the length of the new 180 eld m's but it said they're 30 thou shorter than the eld x. Hoping that might help my problem. Anyone else run into this problem? Thoughts? |
Replies
@ 01:23 pm (GMT) |
mark whiteleyRe: 175 eld x length problems 7mm practicalgregthis is why after owning a 300wm in a long action I always suggest a magnum action for the longer cartridges such as yours it is my belief that you will not get the best performance out of your cartridge if you cant reload to an optimum length yea sure you can use a tangent shaped projectile to try and make it work and it may but that sort of goes against the reason you have a practical but why not make it easy on yourself and not retard your rifle in the first place just saying as I like to seat the projectiles out, greater velocity for the same pressure and I am not saying to seat the projectile out more than at least a caliber depth but when you choose a cartridge make sure it can be seated to its optimum length with the rifle you are using it's the reason why my 300wm long action rifle is a 270 wsm now good luck with it regards Mark |
@ 02:41 pm (GMT) |
Jonathan KittermanRe: 175 eld x length problems 7mm practicalTest first with your current set up. You can load as a single shot if you need rounds longer than your current magazine length. Make your decisions after. |
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@ 05:19 pm (GMT) |
Greg QuickRe: 175 eld x length problems 7mm practicalSo I do have a magnum Remington action. Made sure of that before building this rifle. Brand new SS Magnum action threaded onto a bartlien barrel. The reamer my smith used was the latest ptg reamer. I did testing today and it does not like the bullets 40 thou off the lands. I agree I don't want to retard my rifle or do something half ass red neck style even though I am a true blooded redneck I most definitely want this right. i don't want a single shot hunting rifle. Worse case I might have to run the 162 eld or 168 bergers. Opinions about your guys experience are much appreciated. Thanks. |
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@ 10:11 pm (GMT) |
mark whiteleyRe: 175 eld x length problems 7mm practicalvery sorry for my assumption Gregalthough I do feel better after raving on about long action 300wm's a bit lol this might be the best info for you as I don't have anything to add http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/7mm+Practical.html I think it might have been updated recently although you have probably already been there regards Mark |
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@ 05:50 am (GMT) |
Greg QuickRe: 175 eld x length problems 7mm practicalNo offense taken Mark. I appreciate the input. Your assumptions of not using the magnum action was on que with what I thought as well. I assumed getting the magnum action would've given me plenty of room to work with longer bullets yet still manage to load them properly into a detachable mag. I maybe jumped the gun on posting this problem until all testing is done. I'm going to take a drunken haymaker swing and do some testing, seating bullets 60-80 maybe even 100 thou off the lands and hope I connect. The haymaker swing worked on my last wildcat which NOW shoots under half MOA. As far as the practical website I got that thing basically memorized ontop of the books, haha. Thanks AGAIN.Greg |
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@ 06:19 am (GMT) |
Jonathan KittermanRe: 175 eld x length problems 7mm practicalWhat DBM are you currently using? I usually see Wyatt's extended box magazines paired with cartridges such as 7mm Practical and 338 Edge and long range hunting / shooting. |
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@ 06:30 am (GMT) |
Jonathan KittermanRe: 175 eld x length problems 7mm practicalI don't know if this helps but Precision Rifle Blog had an article on Accuracy International and Wyatt's DBM magazines and COAL.http://precisionrifleblog.com/2012/12/13/detachable-magazine-dimensions-max-coal/ |
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@ 07:14 am (GMT) |
Greg QuickRe: 175 eld x length problems 7mm practicalThanks for the info Jonathan. I'll definitely check it out. I'm using the seekins bottom metal with a accuracy international mag. I had Mcmillian supply both with the stock I'm using for this practical. I'll check out wyatts and see if they're a tad longer or if they're compatible with the seekins bottom metal. Thanks Jonathan. |
@ 10:18 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: 175 eld x length problems 7mm practicalOk, sorry, just getting to this now.Yes, the big trouble is that the long range bullets keep getting longer. The 225 grain Anyone who is in the market for a new LR rifle should take note of this as it applies to all the magnums. Action choice is now more of a concern than ever before. I don't much like single feeding as there is such a high risk of ammo contamination in the field, especially in winter when the ground (or our hands) is wet and muddy. If you utilized a PTG reamer, then the throat may have been cut separately. It takes very little to cut the throat too long as it can be hard for a smith to get an exact feel. The current Manson reamer was designed to solve these issues and also prevent deliberate long throating and resulting tales of woe. In any case, you should be able to interploate the following numbers: 162gr ELD-M max OAL 91.5mm or 3.602. 162gr ELD-X max OAL 91.4 or 3.598" (minus roughly .1mm or .005" shorter 162gr ELD-M). 175gr ELD-X max OAL 92.94mm or 3.659" (plus 1.44mm or .057"). The M700 mag box is 94mm or 3.700". These feed smooth at 93.3mm or 3.673". I am not sure how all of this correlates to your detachable mag. If your throat was cut to say 92mm or 3.622 with the 162gr ELD-M, then you can basically add .5mm or 20 thou to the figures above. You can experiment with longer jumps, but it can pay to make each step meaningful. One can for example start with 10 thou jump, then go to 20 thou off, but beyond this it can be more useful to test larger jumps including 40, 80, 120. These more significant jumps may help to show measurable change for better or worse. |
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@ 10:20 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: 175 eld x length problems 7mm practicalI see you posted near the same time as me. Not all AI type mags are the same. If you get a chance, could you please quote your internal mag length. |
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@ 10:53 am (GMT) |
Greg QuickRe: 175 eld x length problems 7mm practicalHi Nathan, thanks for the response. So I had figured my smith reamed it just a bit too far which isn't his fault. I never gave him a mag to work with so it is what it is. Jonathan nailed it. After doing some more research the wyatts mags are longer than the AI. I'm off to the range right now to test these 175's with a 60 thou jump which puts it right on the edge of proper mag feeding with the AI mag. I'll double check when I get home and post the exact internal mag length but my coal is 3.630 and that's right on the edge of the mag now with a 60 thou jump from the lands. If the bullets shotgun my target I'll just switch to the smaller bullets. Not the end of the world just had it my mind I'd be shooting the 175-180 grainers out of the practical. Another great learning experience with a wildcat. Thanks again. |
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@ 02:03 pm (GMT) |
Greg QuickRe: 175 eld x length problems 7mm practicalHey Nathan,So the exact internal length of the 300 win mag AI mag is 3.640. And for anyone interested reading the post, the 338 Lapua/Norma AI is the same. I got very lucky with my 338 wildcat because it likes both 300 grain bergers and 285 eld match bullets off the land 40 thou and they're both right there at the edge of not going into and feeding properly into the AI mags. If it liked them any closer my 338 would've been a one shot wonder or smaller bullet. A personal opinion and story if anyone else is having issues or thinking of doing a detachable magazine with long rang precision rifles/wildcats with these long high BC bullets. I was an infantry solider for 6 years in the U.S. Army. Everything I was taught and everything we shot had a detachable mag. When I did my time in Iraq the rifle I carried had a DBM, Sniper teams that were attached to us had a DBM, the special forces had DBM on all their close and long range rifles. So when I got out I had a very strong emotional attachment to the DBM so everything I owned had to have one thinking that was the most proficient set up to have. Now after dealing with these wildcats, high BC bullets, long range rifles I'm completely done with them. What's the reason to have them on a hunting/precision rifle? If I'm hunting big game and I need more than the 3+1 internal magazine to bring down an animal the solution isn't to get online and by a DBM system, the solution is to go back to the range and work on my shooting. So in my humble opinion for anyone considering doing this please know that you might be giving yourself a huge headache using these DBM systems and wanting to shoot heavy high BC bullets. If you want to have a long range hunting rifle and be ready for quick mag change out for the zombie apocalypse, have had it. each is own. but for me its internal mags from now on. Sorry to rant but I had to get that off my chest. |
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@ 03:01 pm (GMT) |
Greg QuickRe: 175 eld x length problems 7mm practicalAlso, you mentioned that not all AI mags are the same. Did you mean the tolerances from mag to mag aren't the same? And as I posted earlier, I had read that the 180 eld-m's are 30 thou shorter than the 175 eld-x's. Can you confirm this? Thanks!Greg |
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@ 05:03 pm (GMT) |
Greg QuickRe: 175 eld x length problems 7mm practicalSo I may have found a solution to my problem. There's a company that seems to have addressed the AI mag length problem. Looks like a fairly new product that just launched(according to midway USA) A company called MDT has made a AICS bottom metal compatible mag that has an extended length for newer long bullets. It says it makes a 300 win mag and 338 lapua with a mag length of 3.850. So I guess it pays to do a bit of research before getting online and going jackass nuts. sorry everyone. Hope at least it helps someone else with similar problem with their wildcat/long bullet DBM setup. Haven't changed my mind about not using DBM again though, haha! Thanks everyone for your input. The new mags are out of stock(no surprise there) but I'll be more than happy to be the sap that buys one and post the results of how well it works/cycles. Thanks again.Greg |
@ 01:54 am (GMT) |
Bryan WebsterRe: 175 eld x length problems 7mm practicalQuote: Also, you mentioned that not all AI mags are the same. Did you mean the tolerances from mag to mag aren't the same? And as I posted earlier, I had read that the 180 eld-m's are 30 thou shorter than the 175 eld-x's. Can you confirm this? Thanks!
Greg 180.0 ELD M (Extremely Low Drag Match) 1.538 inches 175.0 ELD-X (Extremely Low Drag - eXpanding) 1.567 inches The above measurements are from the JBM web site: http://www.jbmballistics.com/ballistics/lengths/lengths.shtml#Hornady |
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@ 03:31 am (GMT) |
Greg QuickRe: 175 eld x length problems 7mm practicalThanks Bryan, very much appreciated. |
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@ 04:37 am (GMT) |
Greg QuickRe: 175 eld x length problems 7mm practicalSo I contacted MDT about the magazines. The 3.850 is for savage only bottom meteal magazine wells. Apparently Remington action doesn't have enough travel to accommodate such a long pull. So back to square one with the DBM issue. I'm getting a little too excited about it all. I'll try the 180s and if they don't work I'm fine with the 162 eld ms' |
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@ 07:56 am (GMT) |
Bryan WebsterRe: 175 eld x length problems 7mm practicalMy 7mm Rem Mag has a Benchmark 5R barrel and was put into a Husqvarna action from a husk. deluxe model that I think was 1640. Has a 1:9 twist and .068 of jump.I never measured the mag length but I did use the Hornady seating depth of 3.290 (2.579 BTO) with the 175 grain ELD-X bullets (that is about 20 thou off the lands) and have been getting 3/8 inch groups with reloads that work in my rifle's magazine fine, have yet to chornograph it but shot well out to 800 yards last week and my guess on velocity from the targets suggests around 2900 to 2950 fps or so. It is not a Detachable Magazine however which for hunting I prefer to not use the dbms. Not able to buy the 180 ELD-M bullets here yet but he rifle really likes the 162 grain ones. |
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@ 10:12 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: 175 eld x length problems 7mm practicalHi Greg, your post above was well thought out. Civvy hunters are of late getting too caught up in detachable mags- without any past affinity as you have had and which is entirely understandable. In many cases, the civvy hunter simply cooks his throat. And in a survival situation, most would have their backsides handed to them if they fired off 10 shots to announce their position. Still, a good 10 shot .308 (or in days gone by an SMLE) can certainly be useful- if you are in a position to actually make the most of it. The magnums less so due to rapid throat wear.Regarding your question- you answered this. There is some variation with models and brands. AI have three variations, .300 WM, .338, .338 CIP. Hence, it was better for me to ask your exact internal mag length (edit-though 338 is fatter and will not feed .300 cases!). There are are a few different brands of magazine too. 92.5mm or 3.640 is now becoming far less useful, whether we are talking .300 WM or a wildcat. The new .300WM bullets (these past few months) are so incredibly effective that they raise questions as to the usefulness of the .338. But the COAL's are extremely long if you want to get relatively close to the lands. A basic factory box mag and floorplate will solve your ills. |
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@ 11:12 am (GMT) |
Greg QuickRe: 175 eld x length problems 7mm practicalThanks Nathan. No doubt a good 308 with a detachable or an M4 with a 30 round clip is nice to have. I certainly have one and it's not because I'm preparing for the end of Days. I have one simply because I almost felt naked without it after having one by my side 24/7 in the service and the obvious emotional attachment.. I hear you about the civvy commandos that look the part that runs around the hills doing combat rolls and clearing trees as if there was a terrorist standing behind everyone of them. Those guys would be the first to shit themselves when the real bullets start flying. I know I clamed up the first time I was shot at (very green in deed). Anyway. Enough about Rambo and his tactical beer belly. Sorry to continue to beat a dead dog on this, but my McMillan has been inletted for the seekins and according the shop guy I spoke with said too much material has been milled away for me to go back to a bottom metal. If you've have different experiences or think I could get away with it, do tell. I'd rip that DBM out of that stock tonight and chuck it over my shoulder without even hesitating if you have a solution to gettig it back to standard bdl. Thanks again! |
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@ 12:17 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: 175 eld x length problems 7mm practicalThere may not be a simple fix for this. I completely neglected to take that into account.I think long term, you will want the longer mag, whether you stick with the Practical or change later. I have been through this myself lately. I put a little diddy vid on youtube some months back, bastardizing my M70 for the sake of 40 thou, only to see the new .30 cal pills are even longer. So I think you may want to save for a new stock and try to hock this one and its bottom metal. I guess for now, keep on running your test loads and see what pops. Also, try the 180gr ASAP. If you get a chance, have a look at this NZ made stock, the exchange rate might help keep costs down. Carbon fiber will be available soon. https://youtu.be/ZXBJRKjv8EU |
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@ 03:18 pm (GMT) |
Greg QuickRe: 175 eld x length problems 7mm practicalSo I've beat this dead dog to the point it actually came back to life long enough to tell me to piss off! Bought some 180 eld m's at the store tonight and even though they are 30 thou shorter in length they push your coal out 25-30 thou further than the 175 eld x's. Must be the ogive design. At least this is what my redneck lab results came back with. If it holds true maybe it it will help others decide if it'll work or not for them. So I've beat this to death enough and I appreciate all the help. I'll have fun burning these bullets at all different seating depths and hope the gun gods decide to stop mucking with me and I'll find a combo that makes them sing. If not then this particular rifle will be married to the 162 eld's. As far as your last post Nathan. I will not give up on the practical. With all the ballistics and success you and others have had I'm sticking with it. Adapt and over come at any cost. I'm smart enough to know it's not the practical design it's just how shit goes sometimes. Your stock video didn't work for some reason. What NZ stock you talking about and I'll definitely check it out. Also I'd love a link to the 300 win mag bullets and ballistics you were saying that were incredible if they aren't in the books since they're so new. Thanks as always for your time and wisdom. I think I'm going to go into the vent section of this forum when I get a min and give an even more elaborate rant about how useless these fucking DBM systems are on a precision long range rifle. (Pardon the language) |
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@ 03:36 pm (GMT) |
Greg QuickRe: 175 eld x length problems 7mm practicalHope my last post wasn't taken too negative. Even though it sucks to spend hard earned money to have such setbacks I'm learning more now about all of this in volumes. With the books and the constant badgering through emails and this forum I've learned so much in a very short time, more than I've learned all together in the past. So I'm basically just paying to go through the college of the hard knocks. Same school I've gone though my whole life so it's well worth the money to be learning so much with such a great hobby such as this. I'm just fortunate to have found this amazing place of knowledge. You've got my complete gratitude. |
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@ 06:44 pm (GMT) |
Jonathan KittermanRe: 175 eld x length problems 7mm practicalThis is from the Laminate Rifle Stocks forum posts. I think Nathan meant to post the following link.https://youtu.be/ZXBJRKjv8EU |
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@ 06:00 am (GMT) |
Greg QuickRe: 175 eld x length problems 7mm practicalThanks Jonathan. I'll check them out. Also thanks for the tip on the Wyatt DBM. The max coal on their mags is 3.710 so I ordered the bottom metal and will try to fit it in to my stock. I might have to do some fiddling with the stock to get it to fit since my stock has a custom inlet for a different bottom metal but this is really my last option. But great tip. ThanksGreg |
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