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change.org adler lever action petition

18 Jul 2015
@ 12:52 am (GMT)

Ben Law

https://www.change.org/p/victoria-police-victorian-police-licencing-and-regulation-division-victorian-police-commisioner-do-not-re-categorize-lever-action-shotguns-from-category-a-and-stop-punishing-law-abiding-gun-owners?just_created=true

Replies

18 Jul 2015
@ 09:01 pm (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: change.org adler lever action petition
Hi Ben, have you signed this petition yet?

The trouble with online surveys that ask for your email address is that many folk hold back due to having to pass such details.

Marty, Bob- have you signed this? If all is safe, could someone cut, paste and hyperlink bens above post to rifles, general discussion (with comments).

Without comments, Ben's post looks like spam.

Communication please.
18 Jul 2015
@ 10:23 pm (GMT)

Bob Mavin

Re: change.org adler lever action petition
Hi Nathan, Ben.
I've already signed, didn't worry wether it was safe or not. After you sign they ask for a donation but I didn't donate any money.
Cheers
Bob
19 Jul 2015
@ 12:15 am (GMT)

Warwick Marflitt

Re: change.org adler lever action petition
Sign up to protect and preserve your social liberties.

19 Jul 2015
@ 12:20 am (GMT)

Warwick Marflitt

Re: change.org adler lever action petition
Or you can come to live in NZ and own an AR10 .
19 Jul 2015
@ 12:40 am (GMT)

Warwick Marflitt

Re: change.org adler lever action petition
I guess the main reason for the pole is to get the locations of all the gun owners by getting them wound up and opposing and then check that the address of the objecting (potential trouble making )voter's ? The results can be used to check license holders address and if you haven't updated your changed address your in violation of the arms act and they'll come and remove your meal collection utensils? Fine you ,prosecute you and ban you from being a firearms user. See the way they're going around emotionally castrating the thinking human with Smokescreen policy and tactics. It is what it is? I'm going bush soon. Especially if they keep on doing this to the sheep?
19 Jul 2015
@ 04:40 am (GMT)

Ben Law

Re: change.org adler lever action petition
yeah its safe to sign.
i see it does look like a spam post, i posted in a hurry without really thinking of that.

who knows if it will do any good or not.

i see its been reposted in the general discussion forum.
19 Jul 2015
@ 05:42 am (GMT)

Thomas Kitchen

Re: change.org adler lever action petition
can an aussie explains this bit better more then happy to sign but just wanted to know what exactly it is.
is a cat for shotguns?
and c cat for lever action rifles?
i know you poor buggers are heavily restricted on firearms

we just had issues here with stocks categories (free standing pistol grips) which took bit of sorting out.

sounds like you guys fight your government on guns laws as much as we fight ours on 1080
06 Aug 2015
@ 03:41 pm (GMT)

CBH

Re: change.org adler lever action petition
They keep coming out with dumb ideas to reduce the number and type of guns we can have.

Off Topic-
I have heard you use arsenic and or cyanide there is that right? Way off limits here in Australia
Being authorised to issue 1080 I feel it is relatively safe used correctly. Some people have strange preconceived ideas about it but don't have any understanding of it.
Water soluble, target specific, minute amount's used in fox and wild dog baits, destroyed with heat , bury baits to reduce risk of non target uptake and ensure bacterial decomposition of an un collected bait.
There are many household chemicals or herbicide products that have been used contrary to label directions to poison pests this is both illegal and inhumane. Worse still it is readily available and rarely stored away from children. what is the real risk here?
Oh and some chemicals are even used to make low grade addictive drugs that have serious health implications.
1080 use is highly regulated and rightly so but at least we record usage can track where it goes.

07 Aug 2015
@ 05:05 am (GMT)

Thomas Kitchen

Re: change.org adler lever action petition
CBH
put it this way they are aerially applying 1080 to the water catchment area of 60% of aucklands water supply as we speak.

most kiwi's don't agree with 1080 at best of time but aerially bombing a place is madness. plus i have a distrust in the government after ddt dioxide (agent orange) issues have a watch of these

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HZOkp2jDwg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQRuOj96CRs

Nathan feel free to remove my comment as i prefer politic didn't come into such a great forum you and steph have created
07 Aug 2015
@ 11:38 am (GMT)

CBH

Re: change.org adler lever action petition
I must have misunderstood, I thought you were fighting to use or save 1080 as a tool.

Aerially bombing a catchment does not sound good and I don't know the specifics or the target but having some sort of pest animals polluting a water catchment would nor be good..

One example is that a fox bait here in Australia may be 100gm red meat with a point 1ml of 1080 poison. So we are talking 10,000 fox baits in a litre of solution. Don't get me wrong that bait strength is to ensue a kill and it would kill a medium dog. But left in the elements it will degrade.

If we did a aerial bait for Dingos also classed as wild dogs the bait strength would be double but the rate of application may only be on a 1km grid pattern so the amount of poison laid would still be quite small even if y0u done a massive area.

Humans and many other animals have a fairly high tolerance to 1080 so that makes it reasonably safe if used correctly. The actual lethal doe for a human has been has been estimated to be many , many times higher than that of most animals and any animal that gets a sub lethal dose can recover and pass it through the system. It does not build up in your system.

Unless they are bombing the catchment with drums of poison then you may find the poison will have a beneficial effect if the target species are controlled for the reasons they are managing them.

If the poison is introduced into the catchment at rates that would be nearing a teaspoon of 1080 in every glass of water then you will likely find it one to 2 glasses day may be lethal. Our 1080 concentrate solution is blue in colour so I would suggest at any concentration where you can see the dye tint tinge showing I would go off the water. 1080 is destroyed by heat so boiling may improve water quality.
07 Aug 2015
@ 12:34 pm (GMT)

Warwick Marflitt

Re: change.org adler lever action petition
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_fluoroacetate

CHB I know that the reason for using 1080 in NZ is that it kills on a secondary basis. Pig dogs will eat an old opossum carcass and die . So I guessing that a Stoat,cat,pig or a Rat eating poisoned carcasses will have the same results. What amazes me is that the SPCA haven't prosecuted the Government for cruelty to animals?
Here's how it kills you!
In humans, the symptoms of poisoning normally appear between 30 minutes and three hours after exposure. Initial symptoms typically include nausea, vomiting and abdominal pain; sweating, confusion and agitation follow. In significant poisoning, cardiac abnormalities including tachycardiaor bradycardia, hypotension and ECGchanges develop. Neurological effects include muscle twitching and seizures;consciousness becomes progressively impaired after a few hours leading to coma. Death is normally due to ventricular arrhythmias, progressive hypotension unresponsive to treatment, and secondary lung infections.[5]

Symptoms in domestic animals vary: dogs tend to show nervous system signs such as convulsions, vocalization and uncontrollable running, whilst large herbivores such as cattle and sheep more predominantly show cardiac signs.[21]

Sub-lethal doses of sodium fluoroacetate may cause damage to tissues with high energy needs — in particular, the brain,gonads, heart, lungs and fetus.

So if 1,000,000 animals suffer for 8 hours until they die that's a total combined cruelty time of suffering totaling 913.24 years of before death? I just think it's a bit obtuse to prosecute people for drowning kittens and pups $75,000 fine and Jail ! And yet the Government can kill animals with Sodium fluoracetate and get away with it Scott free? Suffering /cruelty are one in the same thing? It should be one set of rules for everyone?
I used link top and below to get my information . I Note that they don't tell us how long it takes to kill the targeted pests or the symptoms they suffer from as they're terminated?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_fluoroacetate
07 Aug 2015
@ 01:37 pm (GMT)

CBH

Re: change.org adler lever action petition
That is how it works but we are taught that there is no scientific evidence that animals consciously feel the pain and suffering or affects of the toxin although to an observer it may seem cruel.

I doubt they are doing it for the secondary poisoning as that would likely there is some rules against that.

The Opossums probably need a stronger dose than the pig dogs so secondary poisoning would be a side affect but any pig dog gone wild would be fair game.

I work in pest management and there are many rules including those that ensure we control pests on private and public lands.

When someone makes a conscious decision to inflict cruelty on domestic pets then let the SPC deal with it. Even in Aus fisheries , rspca and some other departments have very strong powers and sometimes we don't understand why that legislation has such hefty penalties but that is how it is.

I have done limited compliance work through 2 departments and people often question our authority because we are not police but why is it that generally do the right thing or generally follow road rules so why is it we think that the laws policed by PCA fisheries or council officers are less important and its OK if no ones looking?

The pests must be controlled 1080 is a tool like our firearms are a tool to us as hunters. 1080 is approved to be used in an appropriate manner for pest management and there his a lot of approvals coming down from various authorities to allow it to happen'

We are not trying to be cruel. Intentional cruelty should not tolerated in any form.

As for the toxicity of 1080 tests have shown most deaths have occurred within 4 hours which is less than half of your estimate.

There are products on supermarket and hardware shelves that will kill you or animals if not used correctly. They would inflict a cruel death and that is why they are not approved,

I don't know how many human deaths have been recorded as being from 1080 but it is likely that a lethal dose of drain cleaner would cause you more suffering than a dose of 1080.
07 Aug 2015
@ 10:00 pm (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: change.org adler lever action petition
Its fun to play God. In New Zealand, we had some birds, some rats and some Maori fullas. The Maori liked hunting and fishing. Then the white man came and spread himself around along with every other culture- and is still spreading himself around with every new subdivision and new house we put in, breeding willy nilly. Then we have the arrogance to say that such and such an animal is a pest and unbalancing the eco system. And so we carpet bomb our bush, kill some possums, kill the birds we are supposedly saving and somehow, the rats and mustelids survive. The environmentalists in the big cities who seldom enter the bush rejoice while the people in the country look at the dead Kaka (who just wanted to play with the baits) spread around and shake their heads.

Environmentalists in NZ don't like hunters because they feel that hunters tend to farm game. In other words, hunters are not the cold hearted empathy lacking killers our environmentalists would like us to be. We are supposed to kill everything on sight. And this is why you see the likes of Forest and Bird members aligned with anti gun groups. The irony being that if we were blood thirsty psychopaths, we might be more welcome. Having said this, there is cause for concern with regards to pig dogs killing kiwi. This is one hunting method that can cause problems without properly trained dogs.

Right now in Taranaki, Forest and Bird have taken our Council to court. Why? Because they want the council to take control of all private lands with native bush. In plain terms, if you have any bush on your land, you will potentially lose control of it. The land is to be fenced off (at the farmers expense- which most hill country farmers cannot afford, period). Any animals that once sought shelter from the winter in the bush will now be left out in the cold (we are cruel gods after all). Once this has been achieved, the government will be able to carpet bomb our clean green lands with 1080 as they please.

This really is terrible, especially as our traditional farming method was to break feed native birds to our sheep in colder months. But if the fences go up, the sheep have no hope of being able to dig up a kiwi and have a good chew when they get cold.

The good news is, most of our farmers do not have great social skills so when the stress really hits, they won't cause any problems for Forest and Bird, they will just kill themselves because they don't have any other coping strategies. Its a win win for Forest and Bird.

Yes, lets do the whole confiscation of land thing all over again. It went so well the last time. 1860's here we come.

If this group want their own piece of paradise- go buy it. Go buy your own land and do what you will with it. Hell, why not go the full monte and release some Cassowary in lieu of the extinct Moa. After all, the genes really aren't that different are they. Labrador versus German Shepard- both dogs yes? Oh wait up- the Cassowary will eat the bush like the deer, can't have that. Oh dear, playing God is so difficult at times.

The moral of the story, if you feel out of control in your own life, rather than trying to change yourself- try controlling someone else. Once you have control or power over another person, you'll feel so much better for it. That's the secret to being happy- being right. And how do we validate our ourselves? By controlling others.

One day an asteroid hits us, perhaps somewhere near the arctic, followed by a big flood, then a snap freeze. Most of the people die. 12,000 years later we have a new eco system and new rules and we start this all over again.

Regarding this lever gun debate. Phillip Alpers (Anti Gun / Forest and Bird) stated that "gun ownership is like drunk driving, you have to draw the line somewhere".

Back the bus up- "like drunk driving"?

Is it not more like car ownership and driving responsibly? Within Alper's statement, there is the inference that a person is immediately mentally impaired by the fact that they want to own a gun. In this sense, Alper's has shown his hand, a slip if you will. In this one statement, we see a man driven by fear. This man is filled with fear to the point that he cannot see gun ownership in a rational manner. Ever driven a car on a wet road? Of course you have. You don't have to be drunk to know that driving a car is as potentially dangerous as operating a firearm. Lives are lost every day to car accidents. Ever had your wife and or kids arrive home very late on a wet night? Did you worry about them being shot or about the road conditions? Chances are, road conditions were your concern. A wife and kids on a long journey on a wet night is not a nice thing to think about huh.

You cannot fix your own fear by controlling others. You cannot solve such problems by controlling others. Any act that is motivated out of fear will always have problematic consequences.

And what about you reading this thread. You are my main concern. There are many things written here that could leave you feeling frustrated and out of control. You may want to lash out. But will that help? Not really. It will merely inflame the situation and leave you feeling more frustrated. So you have to deal with your fears. Remember this; you always get to choose how you react to anything- including this thread. If you want to be happy right now, you can be happy right now in this moment. You don't have to just "react" to the fear generated by another person. You can let all of this go. And I don't mean burying your head in the sand either. The more relaxed and happy you are, the more you will be able to tackle any hurdle with great objectivity. If you don't want to be controlled, the first step is to choose how you react.

That or control others to make yourself feel better?
08 Aug 2015
@ 01:36 am (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: change.org adler lever action petition
One more thing.

"there is no scientific evidence that animals consciously feel the pain and suffering or affects of the toxin although to an observer it may seem cruel."

You are kidding me right?



08 Aug 2015
@ 04:13 am (GMT)

Warwick Marflitt

Re: change.org adler lever action petition

Sadly our whole Social systems and Government bodies and all Isms and Schisim's share and use DIVIDE AND RULE having to belong to one side or the other being forced into "Picking" a team, party colour or religion to follow? Or fit into the accepted view points of the biggest or winning team. However you want to sell and market it the end result is like dogs mustering sheep? If you're far enough away from the activity your going to see the full picture. (Few of us are) The majority of the sheep just run the way the rest are! thinking that the crowd know what to do. Full of dread and fear from the Dogs barking! Then the thinking individual sheep can be seen alone climbing fast for the top of the ridge gaining height and distance from the stupid masses being forced into gateways that lead to unknown destinations "the future's looking bright ahead! (Quick close the gates behind them! !!)
If you look a little bit below the surface of it all? The warnings Are available for all to see, hear ,read and discover? Songs like" the sounds of silence " Where is the love" Are you gonna go my way" War" License to kill" Changes" Imagine" Books have been written too. "WAR IS A RACKET " ANIMAL FARM" TUESDAYS WITH MORRIE" THE PROPHET"
And Letters " Chief Seattle's letter to Washington" or a real tear jerker "The trail of tears" Web site's are abundant Check out "History is a weapon".
http://www.historyisaweapon.com/

At all times and in every situation the one freedom I always have is " To choose my attitude ".

People with "nothing to lose" have nothing to lose! And so they get desperate and do desperate things that you wouldn't normally do ? Swap places and see how it feels?

Yes Nathan he's as real as we are. I'm sure that if he used a Gin trap on the same opossum it wouldn't feel a thing. But their banned and cruel Being indoctrinated by the systems Maytricks does that to the human species. The brain is primed for thoughtless feelings of righteous grandeur of superior knowing. Only him eating some 1080 or putting his pinky into the Gin trap would change his mind. ! It's the bravery of being out of range that makes these people so magnificent and brave? Put them with a wounded bovine and your hunting knife and see how they fair?
What's that? You wouldn't do that because it may hurt the knifes feelings! Your a cruel bugger Nathan! What's that? Oh yeah true its not going to bother you cause your not going to be there.? Brave smug and out of range. It's a warm n fuzzy first world problem !
I'm waiting for the next Dark age to come?
08 Aug 2015
@ 05:12 am (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: change.org adler lever action petition
On the other hand, I don't want to sound callous regarding pests. Its more how we go about it all that concerns me. And how we see ourselves in the big picture.

I have a good friend who busts a gut trying to kill rats, cats and mustelids using Doc 200 kill traps. It is brutally hard work carrying the kill traps in but the end result is very effective and target specific. As I said in my previous post, the little buggers tend to slip through the poisoning, yet these are a major problem. For many years, our government left this in the too hard to deal with basket but there has been a turn around so hats off to those doing the hard yards.

But as my friend tells me after spending many years dedicated to creating a pre-European bush block- from what he has seen and learned through all of this, in a few thousand years, all of his efforts will have made no difference.

Make of that what you will. Thomas posted the Graf boys doco on 1080 bombing (see above posts) for anyone who wants to look at the 1080 debate.
08 Aug 2015
@ 06:26 am (GMT)

Thomas Kitchen

Re: change.org adler lever action petition
1080 will not build up your system this is a joke?? sub lethal doses are fine???yea a lethal poison that doesn't kill you are harmless.

i understand the human body is an amazing thing that can survive when it shouldn't just look at ozzy osbourne if you don't believe me.
but if it gets into our food chain or water supply then we are not talking about a one dose let the body recover kinder thing, we are talking about every meal everything drink of water a little bit entering your body bit by bit slowly building up to appoint where the body wont deal with it maybe it will store it in fat maybe you won't notice it, maybe you'll suffer for years without anyone knowing whats wrong, maybe you'll be fine but your kids won't be.

how much will kill a person? this is a calculation most likely based of a rat times body weight, plus on killing half of the healthy population sorry if you had a cold that week your dead oh wait your bodies already dealing with mercury from your fillings i guess your dead to oh well at least half will survive.
anyone that knows about how easy dogs die from it will understand this is a flawed calculation, how much will kill a human no one knows as there's only one true way to find out.

the nz government owns the factory that makes raw 1080 in the usa they own the company that makes it into baits, its a government department that use's it, they are also ones funding any research into, hmmm im starting to see a theme here maybe they will stop one of there income streams that would make sense.

i'm not anti pest control im actually pro pest control, i have even used ferratox (cyanide) when i worked in forestry, i like cyanide as you see your success rate right there possums on top of possums and no secondary poisoning plus there's an antidote if caught early ( tobacco down the throat and 2 inches off the tail if your dogs get poisoned and your out of options).

i'm finding 1080 seems to be changing its targets some how it use to be for possums to control tb oh wait no tb in possums maybe its for all introduced species oh wait there's an animal council now protecting game species oh what can we use hmmm wait what about rats and mustelids.

you could argue that people just like an conspiracy but when there was a meeting for the hunua 1080 drop they had it in the centre of auckland city during a week day gave the farmers that land backed onto the area 2 days notice and didn't publicly advertise it, im 15mins away and its my water supply i found out the night before the meeting.

bit of a long post but that's what happens when we talk 1080 in nz its been 50 years of use so far and its getting worse.

08 Aug 2015
@ 03:00 pm (GMT)

Warwick Marflitt

Re: change.org adler lever action petition
These are from a Bob Dylan song written in the 1960s I have shortened removing the chorus
http://www.lyricsfreak.com/b/bob+dylan/license+to+kill_20021396.html

Man thinks 'cause he rules the earth he can do with it as he please
And if things don't change soon, he will. Oh, man has invented his doom,
First step was touching the moon.Now, they take him and they teach him and they groom him for life And they set him on a path where he's bound to get ill,
Then they bury him with stars, Sell his body like they do used cars
Now, he's hell-bent for destruction, he's afraid and confused,
And his brain has been mismanaged with great skill.
All he believes are his eyes And his eyes, they just tell him lies.
Ya may be a noisemaker, spirit maker, Heartbreaker, backbreaker, Leave no stone unturned. May be an actor in a plot, That might be all that you got 'Til your error you clearly learn. Now he worships at an altar of a stagnant pool And when he sees his reflection, he's fulfilled. Oh, man is opposed to fair play, He wants it all and he wants it his way. And there's a woman on my block Sitting there in the cold cool still
And She says who's going to take away his license to kill
09 Aug 2015
@ 03:12 am (GMT)

Martin Taylor

Re: change.org adler lever action petition
The shotgun debate keeps on going here, the SSAA and other groups partition the government so we shall see..........

As for the 1080......I have also used this to control rabbits many years ago as l have said on here before.
I will never defend the use of this as l have seen first hand the time taken to kill as well as the secondary kill and had to clean it up.

We are just animals and feel pain, thresholds & tolerances will vary in other animals but pain is pain.

Trying to think calming happy thoughts, will stop typing now!!!
 

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