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new AR for nz defence force

15 Jul 2016
@ 11:19 pm (GMT)

Thomas Kitchen

Hi guys.
There has been reports flying around for a long time that the nzdf were looking at replacing the now thrashed to death steyr aug rifles.
I had heard that it was an AR and LMT had won the contract ( i had wondered if we could actually make them in nz since a lot of it is done with cnc machine)
Saw this today which looks like its fully confirmed now, not sure when expected delivery is

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/07/14/new-new-zealand-battle-rifle-overview-mars-llso-chris-bartocci/

Replies

16 Jul 2016
@ 05:05 am (GMT)

Mike Neeson

Re: new AR for nz defence force
About time, all the diggers over here seem to be groaning about the new F88 Aug... Interesting to see they've adopted the 77 grain HP ammo.
16 Jul 2016
@ 11:50 am (GMT)

Warwick Marflitt

Re: new AR for nz defence force
That would be a breach of The Hague Convention of 1899, Declaration III, prohibited the use in international warfare of bullets that easily expand or flatten in the body.
16 Jul 2016
@ 08:20 pm (GMT)

Thomas Kitchen

Re: new AR for nz defence force
i haven't done much research into it warwick but just because they are hollow point doesn't mean they expand or flatten in the body perhaps

you talking about the new improved one Mike?
sounds like they left out the improved part, be interesting to see what happens.
17 Jul 2016
@ 05:37 am (GMT)

Warwick Marflitt

Re: new AR for nz defence force
Why do we hollow point a bullet.?


content://com.sec.android.app.sbrowser/savepage/0808133909.mhtml
17 Jul 2016
@ 08:48 am (GMT)

Mike Neeson

Re: new AR for nz defence force
Match hollow point ammunition has been used for many years in the US military - the M118LR (United States): 175-grain (11.3 g) 7.62×51mm NATO Match-grade round specifically designed for long-range sniping. It uses a 175-grain (11.3 g) Sierra Match King Hollow Point Boat Tail bullet. Produced at Lake City Army Ammunition Plant.

I believe they got an exemption as the hollow point was only a by product of manufacture and not intended to aid expansion. I presume the 5.56 stuff got the same exemption.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62%C3%9751mm_NATO
I know it's wiki but I am reasonably sure it is correct in this regard.
18 Jul 2016
@ 01:49 am (GMT)

Warwick Marflitt

Re: new AR for nz defence force
Hey Mike thanks for the input. The United States didn't sign The Hague Convention of 1899? How much copper do you save from making a million hollow vs solid point? The Accountants have been fiddling the figures! So can you get an exemption from Wars and suffering? Maybe swap them for some Peace, fellowship and understanding? It's really important to kill game quickly and humanly and good bullet design is paramount to achieve that. A good bullet for war would be no bullet! You should be arrested for declaring war and get medals for avoiding them.
In the Book "War is a Racket" written in 1935 by 2 time Medal of honour recipient Major General Smedley Darlington Butler. He had some eye popping statistics for companies war profits ( as a congressman he had access to companies tax returns)[the 1st whistle blower?] and ideas to take the profits out of War? One being that the children of the business owners and politicians get front line postings! And all citizens of age that will be asked to fight and die have the final vote for or against the War? Its a fantastic book that you would be wise to read? He foresaw WWII mentioning Hitler, Mussolini Europe, Japan, Philippines and China! And comments on trade deals, and international tampering. Things that we're still seeing today.

Excerpt from chapter 1

Yes, all over, nations are camping in their arms. The mad dogs of Europe are on the loose. In the Orient the maneuvering is more adroit. Back in 1904, when Russia and Japan fought, we kicked out our old friends the Russians and backed Japan. Then our very generous international bankers were financing Japan. Now the trend is to poison us against the Japanese. What does the "open door" policy to China mean to us? Our trade with China is about $90,000,000 a year. Or the Philippine Islands? We have spent about $600,000,000 in the Philippines in thirty-five years and we (our bankers and industrialists and speculators) have private investments there of less than $200,000,000.

Then, to save that China trade of about $90,000,000, or to protect these private investments of less than $200,000,000 in the Philippines, we would be all stirred up to hate Japan and go to war -- a war that might well cost us tens of billions of dollars, hundreds of thousands of lives of Americans, and many more hundreds of thousands of physically maimed and mentally unbalanced men.

Of course, for this loss, there would be a compensating profit -- fortunes would be made. Millions and billions of dollars would be piled up. By a few. Munitions makers. Bankers. Ship builders. Manufacturers. Meat packers. Speculators. They would fare well.

Yes, they are getting ready for another war. Why shouldn't they? It pays high dividends.

But what does it profit the men who are killed? What does it profit their mothers and sisters, their wives and their sweethearts? What does it profit their children?

What does it profit anyone except the very few to whom war means huge profits?


link to read the whole book It's 5 chapter's and take about 2 hours to read.

https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html#c1

Maybe they should use A-max and partitions in battle so that the soldiers get smashed and properly broken? It might make it unpalatable to fight until it's the very last and THE! only option left to take? And then you don't give a F#@k about an enemy who refused to accept genuine offers and solutions for peace, goodwill, caring, sharing, harmony forgiveness and grace... without hidden agendas and closed door deals!
FIGHTING FOR FREEDOMS LIKE F $#@ING FOR CHASTITY? It doesn't work!
Nobody wins a war! One side just looses more than the other ones lost? In ancient times the soldiers of the loosing side where castrated and enslaved! So some will argue that improvements have been made? I shyt ewe not gentlemen. ....

Its hard to see the true colour of a humans heart or the intentions of their mind? Just look around your local community and ask yourself what could you change to make it fairer and better. Sharing good honest Knowledge and understanding?
Look at how we've grown as a group and learnt new skills and ways to hunt and reload from the information Nathan and Steph have shared with us. Teaching and leading by example? Remember the shrink Gestalt said " You don't have to be sick, to get better"?
Back to the topic of the thread............
An exemption to use hollow points in war too make more projectiles with less material for more money.....? I think knot! Cheers guys.


18 Jul 2016
@ 04:35 am (GMT)

Thomas Kitchen

Re: new AR for nz defence force
Warwick my friend you done it again your posts are never boring lol.

i found this http://www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=1262 it as i thought, its not a hollow point as we think of it as away to increase expansion its a hollow point that has a slight wider surface area if that makes sense.
looks like they are mainly sierra match kings if anyone has experience with them.

maybe megadeth said it best "my business is killing and business is good"

or maybe Eisenhower saw the writing on the wall https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y06NSBBRtY.

18 Jul 2016
@ 02:44 pm (GMT)

Warwick Marflitt

Re: new AR for nz defence force
Eisenhower was a great US President. His wise words of warning have been ignored and maybe the events of the last 40 years are the fruit from seeds sown intentionally and accidentally by our Foreleader's careless blinding desires to expand and increase their countries power, position and wealth. (How do you measure success) ????
Rage against the machine's song " Wake up" was a social warning song! Listening to it it's just noisy screaming! Read the lyrics and the songs using a speech of Martin Luther Kings ? "How long? Not long! Cause what you reap is what you sow"!
You can't squeeze out and deny people or animals access to their own lands food minerals and wealth through underhanded sly selfish means, ignorance, greed, hate or coveted trade deals? Expecting no pushing back! If you do, You just piss them off to the point where they have nothing to lose? A being with nothing to lose has nothing to lose ! And they don't care! So when something tries to take away their nothing they're like a swimmer attacked by a shark! Punching and gouging at its eyes giving his last trying to survive? Can you blame him for trying? We know how a pig fights dogs or the intensity of a Bear attack to protect her cubs? No Quarters surrendered? They throw every ounce of resources they have to protect their interests.! Can you blame them for trying to survive and live their lives on their terms? Either way some one or things not going home tonight and you knew that when you woke up this morning and decided to do what you're doing before you got out of bed. So if Ma bear removes your brain or Mr pork chops does surgery on your spleen you shouldn't be too cut up or surprised? Because they didn't ask you to try and ruin their their daily existence? People are not that much different and good advice should be considered carefully? Ignore it at your own peril? Have a great day . Thanks Thomas. I'd hate to disappoint! And miss the point and stray off the topic .....
18 Jul 2016
@ 04:31 pm (GMT)

Cor Nepgen

Re: new AR for nz defence force
Hi All,

Warwick, I really thought you had a point until you go and say Rage Against the Machine is just noisy screaming.. Now I don't know if I can trust anything you say anymore! (Also have a look at "Township Rebellion"

Jokes aside, you have a point especially regarding war only serving to enrich the few. I unfortunately have grown somewhat sceptical of the masses growing tired and overthrowing the leaders if what little they have gets taken away from them. I don't know if you guys are familiar with the semi recent history of Zimbabwe formerly Rhodesia. Things kinda went pear shaped until all farms owned by white farmers were confiscated without compensation, then things really went down hill in a hurry. Now the country is a shadow of what it used to be and very well educated and super friendly people are doing menial work in South Africa doing what they can to start saving again. Theres a bit of an uprising happening but things get squashed hard and people grow weary and start accepting things, as they become the norm..

The tyrants need uneducated masses that follow blindly so they take away the education system and create a class of followers. Very sad..

Either way, interesting thread. Sorry for the off topic post. Interesting info on the Game King though! Also if I'm looking at the link right it looks like quite a light rifle. With a rather short barrel? So should be a big difference for the guys in terms of weight. Though if my life depended on it I wouldn't want to go smaller than .308

Cheers,
Cor
18 Jul 2016
@ 10:46 pm (GMT)

Rob Kennedy

Re: new AR for nz defence force
I agree with Warwick's understanding of how world politics work. "War is a Racket" etc and Eisenhower's speech regarding the dangers of the "Military-Industrial Complex" but another side of Eisenhower needs to be more widely known.
The Morgenthau Plan for post-war Germany and his involvement in it together with his refusal to treat German P.O.W.s as P.O.W.s but as "dis-armed combatants" whereby he set up the infamous "Rhine-Meadows Death Camps" in which the prisoners died like flies in open-air camps without shelter or enough food and water is hidden history. Millions of Germans died post-war. Fortunately sanity prevailed and humane Americans stopped the Morgenthau Plan after a few years and the Marshall Plan began to rebuild the country.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbp61fOVFaE
http://holocaust-of-world-war-two.blogspot.com.au/2014/11/a-real-holocaust-eisenhowers-death.html
19 Jul 2016
@ 02:10 am (GMT)

Warwick Marflitt

Re: new AR for nz defence force
Thanks Rob. It's similar to the Creek Indians 1835 death march across America. Known as "The Trail of tears" It's a sickening heart wrenching must read! Betrayal is worse than death!

"The Trail of Tears" or "The Trail Where They Cried." Fifty years later, in 1890, Private John Burnett, who served in the mounted infantry; told his children his memories of the Trail of Tears1, which he described as the "execution of the most brutal order in the History of American Warfare."

http://www.historyisaweapon.com/defcon1/burnettcherokee.html

Thanks for sharing Everyone Cor now that I know what he's saying I crank up the volume and scream along with him! They tried to warn us to expect it. It's like high recoil! You know what's a coming! You better Hang on when you pull the trigger cos its gonna get bumpy.
20 Jul 2016
@ 06:27 pm (GMT)

Mike Neeson

Re: new AR for nz defence force
Back to the topic at hand... the US did sign the Hague Convention IV 1907 where the agreement was not to use weapons that inflicted unnecessary suffering. The judge advocate general deemed match hollow points did not cause any addition damage than that of the previous FMJ. Nathan's studies bear this out as well. So no, they don't go against the rules of war. For more detailed info http://www.thegunzone.com/hague.html it seems to be well referenced.
20 Jul 2016
@ 06:35 pm (GMT)

Mike Neeson

Re: new AR for nz defence force
Just checked, it appears that NZ is a signatory to the 1907 agreement too. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_parties_to_the_Hague_Conventions_of_1899_and_1907
21 Jul 2016
@ 05:16 am (GMT)

Warwick Marflitt

Re: new AR for nz defence force
Thanks for that Mike. Interesting stuff
21 Jul 2016
@ 10:44 pm (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: new AR for nz defence force
Mike, my comments about the SMK need to be considered carefully. If it slips between a rib or hits a light rib, it can maintain its integrity and behave like an FMJ (particularly the 175gr .308 bullet). But, if it hits bone or if it hits heavy resistance versus its bullet weight, the SMK will come apart. There are also variations of the SMK which are more prone to full fragmentation than others. Heavy layers of clothing or bandoliers also effect results. As a combat round, the SMK should be considered potentially frangible and should not be confused with any gel tests.

The sole reason we are seeing these changes, is to effect immediate immobilization of an enemy (stopping power for want of a better term). More so on an enemy that is either in a self induced trance like state of fervor or drugged state of mind. It does not matter what folk say, whether the excuse is because it is more accurate or has more downrange poke, the fact of the matter is, if you use an HP bullet, there is at least a chance of increased terminal performance.

This also goes into the whole SPC debacle. Originally the 6.8 SPC was designed and touted as being able to run swim and play tennis better than the .223 round but as anyone with basic terminal ballistics knowledge could tell, it did could not perform any better than any existing cartridge when loaded with FMJ ammo. So to sweeten the deal, the SPC was loaded with rapid expanding OTM (the new buzz word- open tip match) projectiles to ensure that it would outperform others. Now we could truly compare apples with oranges. Now we are seeing OTM loads across the board.

Put simply, a modern bullet like Hornady's .223 Steel match 75gr HP is lethal and creates a wide wound. It is far more emphatic than any .308 FMJ load, though it lacks barrier penetration and has low energy at extended ranges. The SMK has the same potential.

The recent NZ / AU defense force load was a standard 62gr FMJ. This generally pin holes but if it hits a rib, it creates an internal soft tissue wound roughly 8mm in diameter, the wound then gradually opens to between 12 and 20mm (say half to 3/4 inch) through soft tissue and offside ribs, then tapers off again, producing a 5-6mm exit wound. The widest point of the internal wound is due to bone fragments and a small level of hydraulic force (at its worst in liver). If vitals are hit, death occurs in around 30 seconds. If no resistance is met or if the vitals are missed, results differ greatly.

If major bone is hit, wounds are generally wider with exit wounds up to one inch in diameter.

An OTM bullet may perform the same as the FMJ just described but can also render much broader internal wounds of up to 75mm / 3" or so in diameter.

The .308 / 7.62 load for the NZ LTM designated Marksman rifle is a 175gr SMK. I find this does differ from .223 OTM loads in that it carries more momentum than OTM .223 loads and because of this, it meets less resistance on impact which can result in lower potential terminal performance (not taking clothing / bandoliers etc into account). It is also a more appropriate bullet for a dedicated long range rifle. In this sense, I can see how the the load is used for its range potential foremost.

Quite a horrid subject really. But it is nice to see NZ adopt a rifle that produces less noise at the soldiers ear, does not have a Mosin Nagant trigger and does not throw gas into our lads faces like a Brown Bess, these all being attributes of the plastic fantastic Steyr Brown Nagant rifle.
22 Jul 2016
@ 12:06 am (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: new AR for nz defence force
NB, have edited the above post. Still not a subject I enjoy and my post is still very poorly worded as I have skipped across the topic.

My friend and editor Helmut is quite right when he says "if it is acceptable practice to launch a frangible grenade at someone (that would be the M203 that hangs under the AR), why is it not then acceptable to use a bullet of the same configuration". Not that he condones any violence towards others. But still, he is quite right.
22 Jul 2016
@ 06:09 am (GMT)

Mike Davis

Re: new AR for nz defence force
have you guys ever seen the range of .12ga loads the chaps in uniform have at their disposal???????
makes the whole leathalality (spell check tells me its wrong but I'm begiggered if can think of better way) of a round seem a bit pointless/splitting hairs.
not to mention a flame thrower/napalm

very good points Nathan...a FMJ is still FMJ no matter how big it is a knitting needle or a crowbar still only make one shaft sized hole for day light to get in.
22 Jul 2016
@ 06:39 am (GMT)

Thomas Kitchen

Re: new AR for nz defence force
i have to wonder if hague convention was more about evening out the playing field then about being humane.

incendiaries are still viewed as fine and that must be one of the most inhumane ways there is.
look at the bat bomb (google it if you have never heard of it) just to see how far people will go to destroy each other.

on a brighter note it'll be interesting to how the new rifles develops, sounds like there's already some AR-10 variants in use for marksmanship.

 

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