cart SHOPPING CART You have 0 items
SELECT CURRENCY

Discussion Forums

Search forums
Forum Index > Precision long range hunting and shooting > full length sizing issue :(

full length sizing issue :(

13 Dec 2015
@ 10:51 am (GMT)

G Dog

Hi Nathan, everyone.

I need advice before I go spending money I dont have. I've recently purchased a new kimber mountain ascent in .280ai - don't let this fool you into thinking im flush with $, it would have been criminal at the price I paid not too. Its out off the new batch of sub moa guarantees so it should be good. I know you said to avoid Kimbers like the plauge but couldn't help myself Nathan. Anyhow, roll on my problem. I bought 40 once or twice fired brass of a mate to get me underway. Its been fired in a custom built .280ai on a rem action. I'm borrowing redding dies till my ones arrive. I full lengthed sized the brass as I have done for all my previous rifles using the touching the shell holder method (sorry Nathan, kick my ass here) problem is some brass won't chamber, some will, and some quite easy. So I went and dusted of your reloading book Nathan for some guidance. Ill say here now that brass length isn't an issue. So i increased the die till i got unchambered brass chambering - another 1/4 turn. Out of interest I kept resizing one piece of brass at 1/8th increments till it was a full turn past touching the shell holder to see if it would chamber easier. It didn't, so I guess a 1/4 turn past is the magic number. So, thats all fine, but I'm confused as to why the brass is all over the show? Some chamber smoother than others even though they've been re, resized? Is it a case that the brass is just a bad batch (nosler) or they're at different numbers of reloads and the chamber they've been fired in is quite different to mine - which shouldn'tmatter should it due to it being full length sized right? Which then means maybe the redding dies a dud? I cleaned it before using it. So, my question is, shall I just give up on this brass and unfortunately buy some new brass? Apologies for the ramblings, but hopefully you understand what I'm saying.

Replies

13 Dec 2015
@ 07:47 pm (GMT)

Bryan Webster

Re: full length sizing issue :(
This article may help:

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/ammo/new-and-improved-the-280-ackley-improved/
13 Dec 2015
@ 09:10 pm (GMT)

Warwick Marflitt

Re: full length sizing issue :(
Just read the 7mm RM IInformation in the knowledge base cartridge section.
It said. .......

"""As with most belted magnums, neck dies usually produce better accuracy than full length resizing dies.  The only exceptions to this general rule are when reloading for rifles with minimum head space as well as semi auto rifles and unique action designs such as the Blaser rifle system. Not only do neck dies aid accuracy, but are also much quicker and cleaner to use than FL dies."""

G Dog
I'm no expert. So please Read carefully Nathans books. It's important not to invent problems or over think things. Use what you know to find out what you don't know. Listen to and follow the steps to investigate and isolate the issue. Don't get frustrated and start looking for short cuts or trying unsafe fixes. You're not the first one to have these issues. Take time and methodically work through the process. Write out a list of things to check starting with the easiest things first working through it to the hardest things last. Checking items off the list as you go. I'm assuming you have all of Nathans books?
13 Dec 2015
@ 09:28 pm (GMT)

Bob Mavin

Re: full length sizing issue :(
Hi G Dog
Sounds like some of those cases have been fired a lot more than the others. If they chamber OK not too tight fire form them in your rifle, the cases may need re tempering ?
Take notice if the primers seat the same, some may seat a little easier, meaning they've been over worked.
Cheers
Bob
13 Dec 2015
@ 09:58 pm (GMT)

Bryan Webster

Re: full length sizing issue :(
Quote:
This article may help:

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/ammo/new-and-improved-the-280-ackley-improved/



Did you by chance chamber any of those brass prior to your full length resizing them, and if so did they chamber properly? Just wondering of the rifle they were fired from was set up a bit differently.
13 Dec 2015
@ 10:00 pm (GMT)

Bryan Webster

Re: full length sizing issue :(
Just to add that you should be able to fire an ordinary .280 factory load from that rifle if it is chambered according to SAAMI specs.
13 Dec 2015
@ 10:13 pm (GMT)

Bryan Webster

Re: full length sizing issue :(
I went to the Nosler web site and their online forum there. It is Nosler I think that set the 280 IA standards but some gunsmiths have the old Ackley reamers and all sorts of potential issues seem to be happening with this cartridge.

Read on here:

http://forum.nosler.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=17476

14 Dec 2015
@ 06:44 am (GMT)

G Dog

Re: full length sizing issue :(
Bryan, Warwick and Bob,

thanks for replying back guys.

Bryan - Thanks for the links. Good reading, had to re read a couple of times as I was getting confused over whose ackleys is the real ackley! Unfortunately I didn't chamber a round vefore sizing, I didn't think it would chamber.

Warwick - yes I have all of Nathans book, I've been hitting the reloading one hard in the last few days. Great info. I've never had this problem before, but ive always bought new brass. I would have thought full length sizing used brass should make them all the same. That's where I'm confused why there's a variation.

Bob - I fired 3 rounds yesterday to see what is like in my chamber. Bolt closed on fired cases, so resized them and rechecked. Still closed but still a little stiff. I don't know how to re temper im afraid.

After some reading, researching and thinking, I'm going to go back to basics. I've ordered new nosler .280ai brass and will wait for my dies to turn up. I didn't want to buy new brass just yet, but I felt I potentially could just end up chasing my taiand wasting time, powder and projectiles. At least with the new brass and dies I can take away a few potential problems.

Thanks again guys,
Grant
14 Dec 2015
@ 07:11 am (GMT)

Bob Mavin

Re: full length sizing issue :(
New cases, that's what I would do too mate.

Everybody has their own method. I use the new cases to work up an accurate load but only firing each case once. When I find my load, I make up the balance of the 100 cases and fire form them while hunting.

When I have most of them fire formed, I start again and work up a load with the F/F cases. Keep them in a different bullet case till I have the rest F/formed. That way you can keep tabs on how many time they've be fired.

If your a hunter, I can't see the sense wasting pills & powder shooting targets.

Good luck with it mate, 280AI is one caliber I haven't owned but had a soft spot for.
Cheers
Bob
14 Dec 2015
@ 07:53 am (GMT)

G Dog

Re: full length sizing issue :(
Yeah I think so Bob. My normal method is very similar to yours as well. I found that in new brass to once fired in my 7x57 there was almost 100fps velocity loss. I thought I was seeing things, but I wasn't. So, yes I recheck after all the new brass has been fired.

I'm very much a hunter, I'll shoot paper once the body gives out, hopefully another 30 plus years left :) I'll updare the thread once im sorted. Its my first .280ai so its all new and exciting too. I'll be intrigued to see if I can tame such a light weight rifle. They come with a brake, but I wont use it.

Grant
14 Dec 2015
@ 11:51 am (GMT)

Bob Mavin

Re: full length sizing issue :(
Good on yah Grant.

I'm 68 and still humping my 10lb 30-06 around the hills, it's better than going to the gym for exercise.
14 Dec 2015
@ 07:38 pm (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: full length sizing issue :(
Some good advice here and yes, best to start over.

You won't be able to push the Norma/Nosler brass too hard and it pays to keep in mind that some of the top velocities reported are often simply hot loads. You really only need 2850fps out of the A-MAX/ELD to get this cartridge working exceptionally well out long (even 2600-2650fps / 7mm-08 is a fine load). Anything above this is a bonus. Yours sounds like a very tight chamber so again, tread carefully. If the barrel taper is sudden and then thins out quickly, the barrel may also be sensitive with regards to harmonics. In this instance, make sure the rifle is well rested and cooled between shots.

Even if the reamers were identical, all it takes is for one chamber to be longer than the other and a FL die that is of max internal dimensions (would suit the other rifle fine), plus some spring back in the brass. A die can always be lathe turned or even disced / sanded slightly to reduce length issues. But if the internal diameter is wide, then such operations may be of little benefit.
14 Dec 2015
@ 07:56 pm (GMT)

Bob Mavin

Re: full length sizing issue :(
What weight projectile are you using Grant?
14 Dec 2015
@ 11:59 pm (GMT)

G Dog

Re: full length sizing issue :(
I hope I'm doing half as well as you Bryan when/if I reach your age. Well done! I'm going to be using either 162gr A max and/or 160gr Accubonds.

Nathan, cheers for replying back .I'm hoping its nota case of a tight chamber. I'll see when the new brass gets here.

Grant
15 Dec 2015
@ 12:13 am (GMT)

Bob Mavin

Re: full length sizing issue :(
280 ai,,,, 160gn pills awesome.

But I think that little rifle will loosen a few teeth Grant

I fitted a gel cushion into my Granddaughters hunting shirt, helped heaps. She's only 50kg

Bob
16 Dec 2015
@ 07:58 am (GMT)

G Dog

Re: full length sizing issue :(
Apologies for calling you Bryan, Bob, in the post above. I get confused sometimes. Lol. Yes it is going to rattle a few teeth. It's going to be interesting. Mates got one and he's shooting less than half inch groups with a muzzle brake. Hopefully I don't have to utilise the brake. I bet your Grandaughter appreciates the gel pad. What cal is she shootin?
16 Dec 2015
@ 08:15 am (GMT)

Bob Mavin

Re: full length sizing issue :(
No worries Grant
I started her out with 6mm rem, head shots at 280m no problem to her, she's a natural.
30-06 and now she shoots my 358 Winchester.
Cheers
Bob
16 Dec 2015
@ 08:29 am (GMT)

Bob Mavin

Re: full length sizing issue :(
I also have Griffon/schnauzer/ wire haired terrier as my hunting mate that thinks he's a Rhodesian Ridge back. Ha ha
20 Dec 2015
@ 01:00 am (GMT)

G Dog

Re: full length sizing issue :(
I have a soft spot for the 6mm rem :) Those smaller dogs donlije to make up for their small stature don't they!

Update:

I got the new nosler brass and it chambers perfectly. I loaded up 20 rounds of the 162gr amax from 52gr 2209 up to 54gr in .5 increment . 3.5gr over max. After 3 bore sighters at 52gr I went straight to 53.5gr due to slow velocities. I really want to get to 2800fps with the amax. I'll live with 2750 though. No pressure signs, best group was .780", worst 1.450". I loaded up a single round of 54.5gr and 55gr. No pressure signs, velicity for 55gr was 2759fps. I'll load some more from 55 to 57gr and willl hopefully find an accurate load somewhere there. I'll also load some single loads of ar2213sc and see if I find any pressure signs and will trial that if 2209 doesn't work out. Ill keep updating as I go.

The light weight of tge rifle was find, definitely need to hold the for end though. Not 100% sure if Im a fan of the mountain ascent yet. It is nice, but tge bolt annoys the hell out of me. The fluting and lightness of it in general hinders the smoothness I've been accustomed to with my other rifles. I may put some graphite powder on the "flutes". The new Vx3i cds seems to track well so far.

Grant
22 Dec 2015
@ 06:34 am (GMT)

G Dog

Re: full length sizing issue :(
Just another update. Went for a quick test session. Had some good results. Powder was ar2209 with 162gr Amax.

55gr produced 2797avg, not a good group though. 1.5". 55.5gr followed with a respectable .645"@2856fps. Next up was 56gr with another respectable group of .463" @ 2891fps. Last was 56.5. I only shot 2 as they were just over an inch apart so no point in my eyes wasting the 3rd. Velocity was 2930fps. No pressure signs at all. I had 3 rounds of ar2213sc loaded for pressure /speed testing. 57.5, 58 and 58.5. Velocity wasn't the best at 2730fps and with not a huge amount of case space left due to short mag length I wont continue with 2213sc. Im happy enough with the above speeds with 2209 and groups. Time for more testing to make sure it wasn't a fluke!

Cheers,
Grant
24 Dec 2015
@ 07:07 am (GMT)

Adrian Regnault

Re: full length sizing issue :(
I have a .280 AI built on a Brno action with a 26 inch MAB barrel (1 in 10 twist), and Boyds stock. My observations of hand loading for this calibre are:
a) as per Nathan's comments the Nosler brass is relatively soft, several of my cases are tight in the rims and a couple have had cracks in the neck after a couple of loadings. However, have only had to trim a few and I am only about to start full length resizing after 5 firings. I have some fire formed .280 Rem cases and it will be interesting to compare how they go.
b) I haven't had much luck with the 162r Amax so far. My rifle seems to prefer the 150 Nosler ballistic tip (with 54.3 gr of 2209 giving me sub 1 inch groups at 100, with 3050 fps), which so far equates to drop on the spot shots from 100 to 330 yards plus. I've been using 2217 with the AMaxs and haven't got any groups below 1.5 inches at 100 and that was only when I seated them just of the lands, which meant the won't fit in the mag. I've been getting them running at around 2930 fps, but have decided that speed isn't probably the issue. Ironically the best group I have shot with them is with 2208 running at around 2800 fps When i was running the barrel in). I only preserve with them because of the great down range BC of the AMax compared to the NBT. I'm about to try some 154 SSTs and hope they have the right combination of accuracy and velocity. I was thinking of trying 2213 but might give it a miss now.
c) I've also tried the Nosler 150 LRAB with the same charges of 2209 as the NBT but haven't shot any good groups with it yet. I'm yet to try seating just of the lands.

Cheers Adrian
29 Dec 2015
@ 03:08 am (GMT)

Jim Moseley

Re: full length sizing issue :(
Adrian,

The 162 gr Amax requires a 9 twist barrel instead of the 10. That's why it's not grouping all the well in your rifle.

Jim
01 Jan 2016
@ 06:17 pm (GMT)

G Dog

Re: full length sizing issue :(
Hi Adrian,

Thanks for your input/info. After retesting it seems either my barrel likes being shot dirty its just plain inconsistent. I noticed that the forend was potentially touching the varrel, soI opened up the channel more. Bit of fun with a kevlar/carbon stock. I've bought a box of 150gr Btips on someones recommendation. I'm hoping ill get more consistent loads.

All in all, for a rifle that retails fot 4k here in new zealand, I'm quite disappointed. They are a beautiful rifle to look at and pick up, but in terms of functionality they're below par. Mags are short - 85mm max, but you cant load to that due to the tip of the projectile getting hung up when ejecting. The feeding isn't as smooth when doing it slowly - it would be a terrible bush stalking rifle. Instead of feeding nice and straight into the chamber, the bolt pushes it quite a bit sideways so the projectile tip hits the opposite side of the action before entering the chamber.

If I can't get it shooting consistantly, then once I've saved some $ (end of the year) I'll get it rebarreled into a 7x57.
09 Jan 2016
@ 04:43 am (GMT)

Adrian Regnault

Re: full length sizing issue :(
Thanks guy's.

Jim - I think your right, and according to the Berger's twist calculator my rifle is 5% off what's required to stabilise the 162 AMAX, which probably explains why I can get 2 shots touching and then the next one off an inch or two. I'm going to give the Berger 168 classic hunters a try as they are meant to be optimal in 1 in 10 barrels. Anyone had any experience with these?

Grant - when I started to get frustrated with my .280 I was thinking I should have just got a Kimber in stead of building something up, but it sounds like I have made the right choice as mine cost way less than a Kimber. However, my rifle is quite a bit heaver than a Kimber.

Good luck Adrian
 

ABOUT US

We are a small, family run business, based out of Taranaki, New Zealand, who specialize in cartridge research and testing, and rifle accurizing.

store