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> 30-06 Ackley?
30-06 Ackley?
@ 10:22 pm (GMT) |
Chris BrooksI'm a long time 30-06 user and my current barrel is past its best.I was planning to rebarrel my semi custom Tikka 690 as a standard 06. BUT after reading Nathan's books I plan to try the 208 Amax and was considering going for an AI as a route to guaranteed standard velocities even if I get a "slow " barrel. A few friends have told me I'm wasting my time and just making myself a lot of extra work with fireforming etc for no real value. Needless to say none of these helpful friends has ever had a 30-06 AI. Can anyone with any Ackley "experience" offer some meaningful advice please?? |
Replies
@ 09:23 am (GMT) |
Rob KennedyRe: 30-06 Ackley?I must say I liked the idea of Ackley cartridges, especially the 30-06 as it seemed that you get a reasonable improvement in performance but a few months ago I was surprised by Nick Harvey's opinion that they weren't worth the trouble of fire-forming ammo etc. I think that was his main objection.In the latest August issue of "Sporting Shooter" he wrote a very good piece on the trouble with reloading "finicky" cartridges - short necks or steep (more than 30 degrees)shoulders or belts or excessive case taper. All of which Nathan has written about, but (maybe I have missed it), the problem with steep, or as he says "sharp" shoulders, I can't recall reading about here, apart from feeding difficulties. He says the lack of strength of the shoulder to support the neck when the bullet is seated makes it too easy to deform the case and results in a lack of concentricity, especially after annealing the case necks. I hadn't thought about that. I was re-reading "The Last of the Mohicans" recently and came across the part where "Le Longue Carabine" tells Uncas to stop over-charging his rifle because he saw that he missed the last Iroquoi's head by shooting too high due to the the extra unaccustomed kick. Some shooting advice from 1826 ! That is OK for general shooting I guess but for long-range some compromises must be made to extend the performance level. It helps to know of the possible problems and that is where Nathan and the contributors of this web site have helped us lesser experienced people. |
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@ 12:10 pm (GMT) |
Rob KennedyRe: 30-06 Ackley?Actually Nathan does deal with case shoulder deformation on pages 296,297 of the Reloading book in discussing the dangers of too soft a cartridge case neck and shoulder when annealing (I thought I had read it somewhere??) Steep shoulders would make this even worse.On the subject of annealing brass I also thought that quick quenching would be wrong as this is used to harden steel. But copper alloys are different and if you wait to let them cool slowly you prevent the soft grain structure from being "captured". Copper needs to be heated dull red and brass till black, and then cooled quickly according to this hobby site. http://steamshed.com/annealing process.html It does not give exact temperatures so the temperature crayons and more information on correct temperatures would be the way to go. Probably find it in "Machinery's Handbook". Further to Nick Harvey's article, he gave his opinion that the cartridges designed before 1920 - including 257 Roberts, 6.5x55, 270 Win, 7mm Mauser and 280 Rem were better designs than the ones of the later 20th century - (except for the 222Rem and 6mm Rem) as far as ease of reloading without associated problems caused by short necks etc etc. |
@ 11:03 pm (GMT) |
Martin TaylorRe: 30-06 Ackley?Yeah Rob Uncle Nick has many good points in his writings and a wealth of knowledge but there are exceptions to these findings.Just one is the 300wm with it's extremely short neck & belted case design. It is a very accurate cartridge and goes against this trend, still holding many LR records today using long, heavy projectiles in the 215gn plus range. It should have everything going against it but it excels still! This is compounded even further when using bushing dies like the Redding S dies as these only size around 5mm of the neck. Well under the 'accepted minimum' neck seating of calibre diameter, 7.6mm or so. So l guess it depends on where you look at these things from, general hunting/shooting, LR hunting/shooting, reloading, target shooting, a combination of all maybe. AI cartridges generally extend case life and squeeze a few fps and if it is not throat burner like the 30-06 AI you mention use fire forming as training loads. You fire form 100 cases & get a minimum 10 firings what’s the big deal? I know lots of guys who fire form standard chambers just to neck size after. I now look at any rifle l set up as a complete package, starting with the rifles basics using Nathans accurising instructions right through to Reloading & shooting techniques with annealing style being my only point of difference. I remember Nathan writing “it is a circle that cannot be broken” and l’ll use that that quote to sum things up, the whole deal. I have been researching a long term, LR toy with reduced recoil in 06 action length and the 6.5mm-06 AI is at the top of my list with one change, a 35deg shoulder. Not sure why……., it just looks better to me and will be the subject of another crazy "Marty email" to Nathan soon! |
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@ 12:20 pm (GMT) |
Rob KennedyRe: 30-06 Ackley?Martin I may have given the wrong impression of Nick's theme which was about which cartridges were easy for inexperienced reloaders to achieve good trouble-free success without blowing themselves up and/or having a nervous breakdown. He didn't go into the merits of individual cartridge accuracy.I'm sorry Chris for sidetracking your original enquiry but it seems there are not many here to respond about the 30-06 AI. How about the 280 AI ? It seems to be one of the best of the Ackley rounds and getting more popular with Nosler making factory ammo and selling brass for reloaders. I would have liked to get the Ruger No 1 light sporter available a year ago in 280 rem, but it had a 22 inch barrel which is a bit short to get the best out of the 280. This is one web site which is highly favorable towards the 280 AI. http://www.shootingtimes.com/long-guns/longgun_reviews_the_280_ackley_031511/ I see that Nathan mentioned problems with the Tikka's magazine length to get the best out of longer cartridges such as the 300Win mag, 280 Rem and 7mm Rem mag if you want to use A-Max bullets. |
@ 11:01 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: 30-06 Ackley?Hi Rob, I have had quite a few Ackleys on my bench over the years. Few have been builds of mine. Mostly they come in after the work has been done elsewhere with the result that the rifles have not shot well before coming to me. In almost all instances, the loads the clients (or chop shops) have been using have been way too hot. In other words, the rifle owner expected too much of a velocity gain and simply would not work with more mild (accurate) loads.A good example is the popular .280 Rem. Everyone aims for 2925-2950fps. But some rifles just don't yield any major improvement. The sweet spot range tends to be 2850 to 2925fps with a 162gr bullet. Don't like it? buy a magnum. So in many ways, I agree with uncle Nick. My perspective is one of expectations. It can be nice to experiment with the AI cartridges- but only if we set zero expectations with regards to velocity gains. That way, if we do see gains, these can be treated as an added bonus. But then, if you set zero expectations, why go the the trouble? Well that's a personal choice. Good case life could be one reason. As for the .30-06 AI. There are a few guys who use the extra case capacity to trickle in ultra slow powder, then run a very heavy bullet. This can work quite well but you still want to aim for a load going around 2600-2650fps. It will never be a .308 Norma or .300 Win Mag. Speaking of the .308 Norma, this would be a nice chambering for your rifle. The JDJ (JD Jones of SSK Industries) cartridges extract maximum performance from the .30-06 case. Initially designed for the Thompson Contendor hand gun, the entire shoulder is shifted forwards resulting in much greater powder capacity than the Ackley improved cartridges (albeit with a shorter neck). I haven't seen anything of these for years and had forgotten about them. But recently a reader asked me what the deal was with JDJ which reminded me that these have been in the wings for decades. |
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