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> A "Hold that fore end" question
A "Hold that fore end" question
@ 08:02 pm (GMT) |
Bert SaenenThe "hold that fore end" article was a very interesting read and I am certainly going to experiment with it. One aspect I like about the crossed arm shooting position is that by squeezing the rear bag with your left hand (right handed shooter) you can vertically shift the point of aim in a controlled way. What is the best way to vertically shift POA when holding the fore end with your supporting hand? |
Replies
@ 10:56 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: A "Hold that fore end" questionHi Bert, the following is not directed at you personally as I understand that the crossed arm method is now so common that it is considered normal.I want to say, that talking about 'experimenting' with actually holding the rifle properly is like saying I have never held my dick when I take a leak and am wondering, if I don't have a hand to brace against the wall when I pee, how do I stop myself falling over. What I am trying to say, is that our mind set towards shooting technique is nowadays just so fundamentally wrong that it is to the point of being utterly absurd. If you can learn to see things this way, then you are in the right place. If you can't, my next book will drive everything home. Now as to your question. You can bring your right elbow in and then release it, as if you were playing the bag pipes in order to bunch up your sand bag etc. Or you can rock the rifle back and forwards until the correct alignment is obtained both front and rear. Unfortunately, there is a lot more to this whole subject. Again, using the term "experiment with" shows just how far removed modern shooters are from normal / traditional shooting technique. I am so sorry to be speaking in this manner Bert. Like I say, I have seen what is considered normal now and the only way to get through this, is to strike the issue head on. When I see folk shoot prone these days, it sometimes looks to me like an great Dane trying to hump a chihuahua. It really is going to take a book dedicated to this subject in order to remove all of the problems. For now, have a go and see how you get on. It will most likely seem unnatural at first so you will need to give it plenty of time. I cannot describe how passionate I am with regards to this subject and the final book in the series. No wonder my clients call me the drill sergeant, it really does fire me up. I am glad you posted Bert, the key words you used are just so relevant. All the best. |
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@ 12:34 am (GMT) |
Bert SaenenRe: A "Hold that fore end" questionHello Nathan, rest assured, I don't take it personal. I rather like your clear (and graphical) language.The problem (for me) is that it is very difficult to find decent instruction in the normal/traditional shooting techniques. Even worse, in Belgium, where I live, it is hard to find any instruction at all! The little bit of instruction I got was from a few friends with backgrounds in police and military, cross arm only... Also, don't underestimate the impact of American instructional DVDs (such as from Magpul). Many shooters have seen them (me included...). Yet again, cross arm only... The thing is that this position doesn't seem to work for me. I can't get a comfortable, natural position. That's why I was looking for alternatives and that's how I found your site (the "hold the fore end" article). So, I am looking forward to your upcoming new book! When will the book be available (estimate)? Until then, I will be "experimenting"... Besides learning a better way to shoot from prone with support, I would also like to explore other traditional shooting techniques, such as the use of the sling for shooting and different positions. Long way to go but certainly exciting! Best regards. P.S. I am looking to replace the stock on my Tikka with a GRS laminate stock. Two models bear my interest, the Adjustable Hunter and the Sporter/Varmint. The main difference seems to be the width of the fore end: 48mm for the Hunter and 59mm for the Sporter. Would this make a difference with regards to normal/traditional shooting techniques? |
@ 01:34 am (GMT) |
Bob MavinRe: A "Hold that fore end" questionHi BertI've been a bench rest competitor in the past, and always held the fore end. I mainly shoot in the bush now and because of the grass etc I don't get many shots over my pack other than ridge to ridge. I use aluminium shooting sticks, I rest the rifle but on my knee but still use the weight of my arm pulling down on the sling just in front of the sticks. Works for me I cull a lot of animals and have no problem taking Deer & pig size animals out to 300m. I use a Tika in a Boyds laminated stock that works well only $150 Cheers Bob |
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@ 10:11 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: A "Hold that fore end" questionHi Bert, 48mm is quite wide enough. My old sendero is 49mm which is plenty. If you go wider with a laminate, I think it will simply add unnecessary weight. You will have quite a heavy stock as is, which will help with recoil etc.A couple of things I want you to try and keep in mind. Some folk try to portrait vertical pistol grips as being ergonomically superior to other designs but in practice, it is hard to find the perfect fit no matter the grip style. Sometimes a swept open grip is simply easier to get behind. Also, watch for stock pitch. For example, the butt stock on this rifle is set low, which creates a need for a high cheek piece. A high and hard cheek piece can be quite bruising on a high recolier. On the other hand, the butt stock on this rifle is 90 degrees to the bore which is better than most. I think this stock will suit your needs. I am sure you will very much enjoy using it and the adjustable features will be highly useful- but I also want to make sure that you have realistic expectations. In this sense, the stock will exceed your expectations rather than fail to meet them. Please also keep in mind what Bob has said about the inexpensive Boyds laminate. The book is due out at the end of August- fingers crossed. |
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@ 06:20 pm (GMT) |
Bert SaenenRe: A "Hold that fore end" questionHelloThe weight difference between the Hunter and the Sporter us 50gram according to the GRS website (1350g and 1400g respectively). So the weight difference doesn't seem to be that significant. I was more concerned about establishing a good grip on the hand guard. The main reasons for choosing the GRS stock were: - adjustability (I am tall (1.90m), long arms) - lighter compared to the chassis systems - not a dedicated stock design for prone or bench, GRS claims it was developed for 3-position shooting. - it doesn't look like it belongs to SEAL team 6... I know I am taking a gamble on the ergonomics and how it will fit me. I was planning to visit the GRS booth at IWA this year but work got in the way... Most "serious" shooters at the range use an AI chassis. So I can't handle different stock designs there. I have also considered the American synthetic models but it would be difficult to get one with a Tikka inlet (the few that get imported are REM700). I am aware of the Boyd's offerings and I am considering one for my CZ-452 .22LR. Looking forward to the book release in august! |
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@ 07:51 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: A "Hold that fore end" questionHi Bert, looking at the shape, chances are you will find this one more comfortable to shoot that the AI, especially with traditional hand holds.Yes 50 grams is no issue. The wider stock may indeed suit your hand size. The adjustable length will certainly be ideal. |
@ 08:52 am (GMT) |
Jacob JensenRe: A "Hold that fore end" questionHi Bert!You might want to take a look at irish pse-composites.com! They specialize in carbonfibres and make very nice, strong and ergonomical stocks. There are two options for Tikka T3; Multipurpose and E-Tac. MP is a precision, lightweight hunting stock with all the features and benefits Nathan described earlier. If you want adjustable cheekrest you have to go for the E-Tac. The MP stock weighs 750 grams The E-Tac weighs 1000-1100 grams. When ordering, you can add extra weight (lead) to the foreend or cheekrest to reducere recoil and muzzle jump. J. |
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@ 11:06 am (GMT) |
Bert SaenenRe: A "Hold that fore end" questionHi Jacob, thanks for your reply. Actually, the PSE stocks were the first I explored! I contacted PSE about the availability of a Tikka inlet for the E-Tac. They replied it was not a standard offering. Modifying the inlet for my Tikka would raise the price by nearly 40%. They are working on a dedicated Tikka stock comparable to the E-Tac but I don't think it is released yet. I should check. The MP would certainly be on my short list for a hunting rifle should I start hunting. |
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@ 07:42 pm (GMT) |
Jacob JensenRe: A "Hold that fore end" questionI'm pretty sure the new T3/E-Tac mold has landed...give Edmund a call ;-)I have 2 MP stock for my Tikkas. Very nice setups as long as you stick to medium recoil calibers. For magnum it's just to light... J. |
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