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> 8x57 Thoughts
8x57 Thoughts
@ 04:20 am (GMT) |
Randy AllenNathan,I'd like to start by thanking you for putting all this info out there to help others. I know of no other source of clear, objective data on actual performance on game (not just paper). When only taking 1-2 animals a year, the average hunter can never accumulate this kind of knowledge. To the point of this post, I am currently using an (old) 8x57 Husquvarna 98 Mauser for most hunting which consists of deer and some pigs. Most shots are under 200 yds., however, inspired in no small part by your site, I'd like to more fully develop my capabilities. I'm hoping you have some recommendations on bullets (and anything else that can help). Currently I'm loading Remmington 185 gr. corelocks with 49 gr of 4650 in Norma brass and Win primers. Thanks for any thoughts you may have. Randy |
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@ 10:10 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: 8x57 ThoughtsHi Randy, thanks for your kind comments, am glad you are enjoying the site.I like to see the 8x57 loaded to its full potential. In this regard, 4350 is too slow for the 8mm and doesn't allow it to really get up to speed. Both H4895 and Varget are better powders. With the 185gr CoreLokt, try working up to 53gr Varget/ADI2208, will pay to start at around 51gr and work up in half grain increments. You should be able to find a sweet spot around 2650fps. It has been years since there was a good long range bullet available in 8mm but that has recently changed. Originally, the Norma 198gr HPBT was simply spectacular, with a BC of .5 and a frangible jacket, it performed the same as the yellow box Berger VLD (pre 2011). The Norma HPBT was phased out many years ago, its a projectile I dearly miss. Now, Hornady has released a 196gr HPBT with a BC of .525 and we are back in the game. It is however a pity that Hornady didn't give the new projectile the A-Max treatment. The secret to the excellent performance of the A-Max on game is the wide hollow point. This wide hollow point does not show any loss in BC due to the plastic tip which streamlines the design. Hornady HPBT match bullets on the otherhad, do not have a wide hollow point and tend to be erratic performers on game unless the projectiles are very old and 'age annealed'. And so it seems we are back to tweaking and manipulating 8mm bullet designs, something that I have gone into great deal already within the 8mm texts (boy do I need to stop working on rifles and get the rest of the KB uploaded) Running a vernier caliper inside an A-Max with the tip removed shows the hollow point to be a whopping 1.8mm or 70 thou in diameter. Running the vernier inside one of my horde of Norma HPBT shows the HP to be 2.6mm or 102 thou. So now we have a 'why'- as to why the A-Max and the old Norma HPBT perform so well. This leaves us with two options, either manipulate the hollow point of the Hornady HPBT and adjust the BC back to .5 or anneal the HPBT. If drilling the HP, I would suggest that you don't go over 1.8mm/70 thou. You could even go a touch smaller if you like. This will give you a hard hitting long range bullet with an effective fast killing range of around 700 yards. If annealing, you can anneal the ogive as you would a case, setting the projectiles in a shallow pan of water with the Ogive showing, heat with a blow torch until a clour change occurs, pull the projectile from the water with a welding glove and allow the projectile to air cool. Age annealing is about the best form of annealing projectiles but its a waiting game (though you can still use fresh projectiles for range work). If you see a box of projectiles where the packet is sun faded, the projectiles are definitely age annealed, brittle and explosive. One could speed the process up by leaving projectiles in a welding rod hot box for several weeks. If a soft point projectile is put in with the HP projectiles, the soft point can be observed and monitored, looking for a change of colour and texture in the lead as it turns to a light grey, very powdered look to it. Re-hollow pointing is the best means of obtaining consistency of performance, annealing can show differing results from user to user and from method to method. Apart from the new Hornady Match HPBT, there is not and has never been a lot of good long range projectiles for the 8mm. As an example, the 150gr Hornady soft point in .270 Win loaded to 2900fps produces fast killing out to around 250 yards, steadily tapering off (though still very good) out past 300 yards,eventually producing clean but often delayed killing. In the 8mm, driving the the 150 grain Hornady at the same 2900fps, there is a definite drop off in fast killing after 150 yards, the projectile rapidly losing velocity due to its poor BC thereafter. As I have often re-iterated, where velocity is low and disproportionate to caliber wounding is absent, fragmentory wounding is the key to fast killing. This is where the Norma HPBT came into its own and is why I suggest you try to duplicate this performance with the new projectile. If you have the time, it will be worthwhile, I promise you. Don't forget to email me pictures! As for powder charges, 50gr Varget yields around 2500fps with 200 grain bullets. I would suggest you start a few grains lower than that and work your way up. My start load is the max load listed in the ADI/Hodgdon manual so make sure the rifle is sound. Anywhere between 2400fps and 2500fps is fine for shooting out to at least 700 yards on game if you get the projectile working properly. The heavy HP 8mm bullets are also outstanding on deer and pigs at woods ranges, giving room for error with shot placement, anchoring game extremely quickly. One more note, with 150 grain bullets, Varget is too slow, even H4895 is borderline, requiring a Federal Magnum primer to optimize the burn rate. If using 4895, between 52-53 grains gets the 150gr bullets into the mid 2900fps range. Powder compression occurs at 54 grains. Max velocities / max pressures are reached at 3030fps, signalling a need to back off a touch. With any hefty loads for the 8x57, you will need a sound bedding platform. The old Husqvarna rifles are no longer good in this regard, after all, its been how many years now, wood can only sit still for so long. It is not uncommon for an old Husky to shoot around 3" or more at 100 yards. To remedy this, a good beefy bedding job with a metal filled epoxy bedding compound is the fix. regardless of whether you use our compound or a competing brand, make sure you at the very least use my online instructions. You can use these instructions not just for your own bedding projects, but also to double check any previous bedding jobs that were done. The key is to look not just at the areas where a 100% fit is required- but also to check and make sure that the critical relief points are actually relieved. A sound action, sound bedding, a sound bore (re-polish if necessary- see Knowledge base / barrel break in article), suitable optics (you will need long eye relief) and sound shooting technique, thats the ticket. |
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@ 01:31 pm (GMT) |
Randy AllenRe: 8x57 ThoughtsNathan,Thanks so much for your inciteful reply. From the lack of bullets offered, I suspected finding the right bullet would be a problem. The Remingtons I am currently using didn't look like they had much of a BC! Your ideas on the Hornady's was great although I'm a bit leery of drilling bullets without a lathe to keep them centered. I'll get some of the 196 Hornadys and work with them. So far as the rifle, it was glass bedded in the past (before I got it) but it was a very limited job covering only the rear face of the recoil lug and a the rear of the tang around the rear action screw. It's probably worth a close look to see if it should be re-done over a larger area. I have been told that it's not necessary to bed the entire flat bottom of the action on a Mauser or other flat bottom rifle. The barrel is floating with no contact. This rifle is probably quite old as it appears to be a straight M-98 vice a later HVA model and action itself is unmarked, the barrel being marked Husquavarna. Probably time for the straight 4x scope to go too and a better trigger would really help but I get the impression from your reply that it could be made to work out to 700 yds on deer and that's great as it's probably the longest shot I anticipate being able to take. The 8x57 is generally poo-pood in this country as something that one needs to convert as soon as possible to something more stylish but I feel that with some work it can be just as effective a killer as many more popular rounds. Thanks again and I hope you're feeling better now and able to get back to your pursuits. Regards, Randy |
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@ 01:35 pm (GMT) |
Randy AllenRe: 8x57 ThoughtsPS I mis-spoke initally about my load. I am using 49 gr of [b]4064. |
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@ 01:28 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: 8x57 ThoughtsHi Randy, OK, the most important face to bed on the Mauser is the flat underside. The bedding should look like this:
If you want to try hollow pointing at any stage, its not a major. You don't need a lathe to drill accurate hollow points. As long as the tip of the projectile is concentric enough to allow you to start your drill bit, your hands will self center. Hold the projectile in one hand, the battery drill in the other, use a small pilot drill first if need be, then move to the larger drill. You don't need to drill down to the lead, the copper tip is all that needs drilling. You can use either a meplat trimmer/uniformer to clean up the tips afterwards or drag them across the course side of a dual sided honing stone. Same goes if you need to uniform the tip before you start. It will take a few minutes to get your head around drilling an HP and cleaning it up but after 15 minutes or so, you will have the process down pat. I just did a 7mm Sierra Matchking before writing this post, no problems. There is a risk that the drill bit can slide off and prick your fingers. Three rubber thimbles could be used to prevent this. Apart from that, the trick is to NOT push hard, let a sharp drill bit do the work. You are probably already leaning towards annealing which is the other way to go, but you will need to try and get a solid method down pat. I am really looking forwards to an update in the distant future, will be great to see how you get on. Thanks for correcting the powder type for me. Burn rate is as you probably already know, identical to Varget, both are very good powders. |
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@ 06:58 am (GMT) |
Randy AllenRe: 8x57 ThoughtsThanks again for your clarifications and pics. I am now leaning toward drilling the HPBTs vice annealing now that I understand a bit better. I wasn't sure if you were suggesting getting some of the little red plastic tips (like the SSTs and AMaxs have) and putting them on the drilled tips. I have seen a meplat trimer that appeared to be able to remove enough tip to open the HP to ~.070. I also found that Sierra offers an 8mm version of their Matchking bullet at 200 gr. with a comparable BC of 525 to the Hornady. Since neither one seems to be widely stocked by suppliers, I may go with the first one I find. One thing puzzles me though, who is using an 8mm for a match gun? and in what format? I can understand why there are 30 cal match bullets as well as 7mm, 6mm and 22.,but 8mm? Not like it's the German service rifle cartridge or anything.The pic of the Mauser bedding was very informative. Upon closer inspection, mine was bedded from the mag well forward to the chamber, but there is no bedding to support the rear tang. Also there was no metal ferrel on the rear guard screw (spacing the action from the floorplate) so no "pillar bedding effect". I plan to remedy these shortfalls in the near future. The markings on the bottom of the action flat need to be trimmed off the bedding as well as some other minor relieving you mention in your bedding tutorial. I'm hoping to possibly use the gun on a late spring pig hunt in Texas but it's not for certain right now. These would probably be larger (100-150 kg) hogs but shooting from stands the range may not be too far. Regards, Randy |
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