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Forum Index > Precision long range hunting and shooting > Copper vs. Lead core - article

Copper vs. Lead core - article

08 Oct 2022
@ 04:08 am (GMT)

Fernando Cundin

In the spirit of sharing and promoting dialogue...


I am coming to the concern for copper vs. lead core bullets for hunting late, I do note some changes stirring on the horizon though. The forums here do disclose good pragmatic information on this subject. Just interested in adding to the body of reference.

Best

FC


LINK: https://www.rifleshootermag.com/editorial/copper-vs-lead-bullets/465190/?utm_source=GATdaily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=10_7

Replies

1
08 Oct 2022
@ 06:42 am (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: Copper vs. Lead core - article
What a fucking load of bullshit. This reminds me of why I started this lifelong research project in the first place.

What utter fucking lows we have come to, if this is the best of our scientific understanding of ballistics. Is there something in the fucking water? Who the fuck argues themselves around in a complete circle.

Its simple, do you want to own rifles and hunt in the future. Do you want your kids to learn how to hunt. If the answer is no, then pull your pants down, bend over and take your copper pill and all the bullshit thats heading your way. If not, then be a fucking man and call this bullshit for what it is.

Is that succinct enough for all of you.

My God.
08 Oct 2022
@ 07:07 am (GMT)

Fernando Cundin

Re: Copper vs. Lead core - article
Oh, I see I hit the nerve. While I had some idea that I would strike some steel with this cut, I also knew there would be a some splinters to draw. I also see that my indirect attention here is about as sharp an inspection into the status that I actually wanted to learn.

I concur absolutely! Moreover I rationally welcome this reply with all the furor and imprint that the sincerity suggests. Make a good case???

Thus, this is about the praxis of the real conditions and state of confluence of ballistics, hunting and more now happening in today. I suggest further that only measured replies, thinking and discussion will nudge or penetrate this skidding trend only so little. What actually can be fixed about any of this, or is there henceforth only compromise possible?

FC
08 Oct 2022
@ 07:54 am (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: Copper vs. Lead core - article
Thanks for your supportive comments Fernando. Unfortunately, I haven't finished ranting quite yet, let me go on a bit till I fall right off this soap box. Maybe you can have a laugh at my expense, there he goes again...

Here is the difference - I write to help each of you. I write, then I hope and pray that somefucking how, I am also going to be able to pay the bills and feed my family. You and my family first, me second. I write things that sometimes suck, things that folk don't want to hear, but hopefully it is information that will help them as well as help ensure clean and humane killing.

Besides helping my readers and providing for my family, I am at the same time trying to create a legacy. That's the thing that happens after you are dead, the bit where you don't get to make and spend money. To create a legacy, I have to take a hard look at myself each year and be OK with saying, well the writing was OK then but you can do better now. The data might be good but there are still errors, still room for improvement and your communication has been poor. You only have so much time on this planet so crack on. I ache all over, I have injuries from head to toe. It has been a hard life. But I get up and I get moving, I continue my research as well as working toward improving my communication (at least within articles - forums not so much and today seems to be a bad day).

These fuckers on the other hand, write to make money on the back of popular opinion, to tick a box, to keep their ratings high because they are all afraid of the dreaded low search engine ranking boogie man. In this new world, if you lose popularity, you die. So its money first and all of you fuckers, your children and the game you hunt can go to hell.

That linked article was about a half days work at a computer, then off to some schmuck editor who probably thought it was the best turkey stuffing he has seen all year. So yes, it does hit a nerve.
08 Oct 2022
@ 08:29 am (GMT)

Fernando Cundin

Re: Copper vs. Lead core - article
The human nerve... once struck it bleeds the very structure, fiber of being, that makes for a confrontation with all such absolutes that matter. This honesty, rare candid and actionable position, is what keeps me attendant to this forum and this good work.

The typical of the terrain in culture as I review things spells a harsh vista of erosion of anything so proven, rational and sound as good thinking and solid research results. Might we still define a repository (legacy even) of proven knowledge, see the recent Norma articles you penned for context and more, that reaches to a point of understanding? I say that systemic change only follows understanding.

I am of the position that things are trending sour and that they cannot be fixed with anything so light as discussion, publishing and campaigns of reason. Hunting traditions are sliding toward controls with no rational reference. Seems to me that the energies are required to lift and shift toward arguments that are compromise oriented. I wish to point out that to evaluate everything progressive against fickle influence and profile (popular ratings all so trite nonsense, but still powerful movers) over solid work that is borne through hard work, sacrifice and pain is plainly a crux of hard realizations. Only few are sensitive and aware of the actual disciplines being exercised here.

And so... copper pills of misinformed purpose or intent present such an obstacle to proven sound practices/research and focus a broad restructuring of counter argument that could define a legacy and companion legacy of a hard project's worth.

Stay on it. No slack. Never let 'em see you sweat.

FC
08 Oct 2022
@ 11:55 am (GMT)

Scott Struif

Re: Copper vs. Lead core - article
I watched an old interview of Lewis Lapham, the editor from the mid 80s through 2006, of Harper’s Magazine, a respected, monthly, US news journal. Until I watched the interview, I had always thought that journalists adhered to a code of ethics to report the truth. The interviewer pressed Lapham on the issue. He told her she was mistaken, that the purpose of journalism is to sell newspapers. The same applies to hunting rags. A US gun writer recently used the following logic to sell a story: The 30-30 has killed more deer than any other cartridge. The 300 Blackout can launch high BC bullets with a similar trajectory. Therefore, if you want to kill more deer, get a 300 Blackout.
08 Oct 2022
@ 02:11 pm (GMT)

Ben Law

Re: Copper vs. Lead core - article
Quote:
I watched an old interview of Lewis Lapham, the editor from the mid 80s through 2006, of Harper’s Magazine, a respected, monthly, US news journal. Until I watched the interview, I had always thought that journalists adhered to a code of ethics to report the truth. The interviewer pressed Lapham on the issue. He told her she was mistaken, that the purpose of journalism is to sell newspapers. The same applies to hunting rags. A US gun writer recently used the following logic to sell a story: The 30-30 has killed more deer than any other cartridge. The 300 Blackout can launch high BC bullets with a similar trajectory. Therefore, if you want to kill more deer, get a 300 Blackout.


hahaha, sorry to laugh at your expense scott.
08 Oct 2022
@ 02:57 pm (GMT)

Mike Davis

Re: Copper vs. Lead core - article
Hilarious.....
I took time to read article/dribble right through.
as to who argues themself around in a circle??? have you ever listened to a speech by our current prime minister ??? talks around in a big circle then hands over to a minion to deliver the 30seconds of information we wanted half n hour ago.....

as to contents of article...... yip some real titbits of information in there,but so covered in page filling dribble to be completely lost in translation.
I do not shoot long range,or consider myself precise enough to do so. I do however shoot enough to have some idea of how shit works.... like many I found copper projectiles rather vannila in preformance.....the cup n core just did it better...the exception being 50grn ttsx in the .223 AND YES Bossman I have seen your link to later 55grn versions preforming like shit..interestingly inside that article he states same thing,sort of...smaller animals with meatsaver shot not so good,aim to break bones of shoulder....
thats pretty much what we were told 40 years ago when using SMLE and FMJ milserp ammunition.... strangly the 500 yard range figure popped up..where the heck did he pluck that from??? his fundamental orifice perhaps???? now had he put 200 yards,some credability could be restored...
I have twice in last month had discussion about using mono copper projectiles in the 30/30......both times the owner of rifle thought they would be great..both times I argued that couldnt think of worse combination,slow speed and hard to expand.... hopefully in one of the cases some sence was seen....
keep up the good fight Nathan.....
09 Oct 2022
@ 12:10 pm (GMT)

Vince

Re: Copper vs. Lead core - article
Thought I would throw this into the mix, posted yesterday

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_oYH_dXGDM&ab_channel=MeatEater

Has all the limitations these tests usually have including a lack of projectiles tested but for me the most interesting thing was their interpretation of the results, I wondered if I was watching the same video!

Cheers

Vince
09 Oct 2022
@ 01:29 pm (GMT)

Scott Struif

Re: Copper vs. Lead core - article
Hi Vince. I saw that one, too. It was funded by Federal, no doubt, who is marketing their Trophy Copper bullets under a license agreement with “MeatEater.” My theory is these companies invested heavily in machinery to produce copper bullets for the California market, and now want to capture a return on investment by trying to convince non-California residents to use them.
10 Oct 2022
@ 07:42 am (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: Copper vs. Lead core - article
Hi Fernando, I just wanted to write again to say thank you for your kind and supportive words, they are very much appreciated.
10 Oct 2022
@ 10:28 am (GMT)

Fernando Cundin

Re: Copper vs. Lead core - article. Status in future?
Mr. Foster,

...or as we say ‘round here in the swamps Mr. Nathan...

There are many obvious things to say about the deterioration of hunting standards, traditions and teaching these sound ways to younger recruits, and the dialogue in this forum is active in its awareness and terribly sharp to all details. Perhaps though there is an active body of exchange here that is also insular in its scope and practice.

My contention is that the future of hunting and field craft is to be applied to the youth which are rightfully positioned to carry on these standards. The evolution of this next generation body of participation is challenged with many distractions and perhaps pernicious campaigns to steer a vector towards some kind of centralized byte thinking and neutered drone urbane generic... I dunno.

Something, hook or by crook, is demanding for a concerted response? Yet, can only an ishooting/hunting forum dialogue be leveraged or scaled to apply out and attract actual attention and interest? I haven’t any specific answers here. My own efforts are digging for both understanding and common connections whereby I might strike a spark of example or enthusiasm that takes hold and grows. Certainly participation in field sports of all kinds is essential for any continuity. Otherwise the lands and waters will be nearly folded into a soon to be forgotten meme of sorts and things will be forgotten permanently.

Still thinking here... Carry on with all this good work! I think perhaps a podcast is a shift possible consideration.

FC
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