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Neck sizing dies??

23 Aug 2013
@ 05:48 am (GMT)

Ed Stewart

I would like to start neck sizing my brass. At the moment I am using a RCBS press and full length dies. Looking at all the different brands and options for neck sizing dies I am a bit lost. Some have collets or bushes, some bump the shoulder back as well. So any feedback on what works and what doesn't would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, Ed.

Replies

23 Aug 2013
@ 06:31 am (GMT)

Michael Neeson

Re: Neck sizing dies??
Hi Ed, big fan of the Lee collet die. It is cheap, works REALLY well and does not require lube. It is a diamond in the rough and can be made much smoother with some polishing. Check out this link for a detailed account on how to get the best performance. Basically you are squeezing the neck against a mandrel - very little friction or wear on the case.

http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?49899-Lee-Collet-Die-Adjustment

But I dare say everyone is going to have their favourite and I bet most of them will be different... Good luck.
23 Aug 2013
@ 05:16 pm (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: Neck sizing dies??
So much to consider.

In the 7mm Practical, it is common to use a basic Hornady generic "Magnum" 7mm neck die with its 35 degree shoulder angle. It seems to work well, I have been using Hornady dies in various chamberings for a number of years now, same goes for RCBS and Lyman. I polish the expander buttons to increase neck tension in order to lower ES for long range shooting.

I have Forster neck dies, these are very nice too. I have no control over neck tension with these dies as there is no expander button but Forster seem to get it right. Good premium dies, a lot of focus put into optimum concentricity.

Have used the Lee Collet a bit- but not a lot. Can't really fault them. They offer a measure of control over neck tension also. I really don't like the lock nut. I have friends using these dies with great success.

I am leaning towards Redding bushing neck dies at the moment. Lots of focus on concentricty to minimize bullet runnout, full control over neck tension so that ES can be minimized. Have a look at these if your budget will allow. I am not into bump dies as I have been caught out bumping shoulders, increasing the case body diameter just behind the shoulder, making chambering much more difficult than a hard seated shoulder.

I have a cheap old fashioned Hornady die (looks like a generic RCBS), decades old. Years ago I reamed it in the workshop from .30-06 to an oversized body as a generic magnum .30 cal neck die. Did the same with the seater. I did the job as rough as a job could be done but it has produced some of the most accurate ammo I have ever shot. Heat die to cherry red, left it to cool in slowly in waste glass bead, drill, did not bother retreating. Go figure.

I have a lyman 310 neck tool that should in theory produce non concentric ammo if you study the way the pliers come together and how it feeds the case into the tool. Thats a sub 3MOA die. Its my favorite tool and die.

The next book due to be released (soon) focuses on long range cartridges. The book after this will address my reloading practices.



24 Aug 2013
@ 01:06 am (GMT)

jason brown

Re: Neck sizing dies??
you have opened up a can of worms here Nathan....
the first two lines of your last post... is there a "magnum" 7mm neck die? which is different to a standard 7mm neck die?

iv been interested in neck sizing, its just to me as a learner full length sizing and bumping the shoulder back .001 or .002 seemed more simple and consistant from load to load.

I wasn't sure if you had to neck size then use a body die, which seemed you might as well full length size, or just neck size but then you have to full length after a few firings, which didn't seem too consistant.
but I guess everyone has different ideas.

but I am interested as im only getting about six loads from my 7mm rem mag hornady brass. (iv heard of worse, but also better, larry claims 20+)
I was even sucked into a larry willis magnum die. maybe I didn't understand it, but it seems I have to neck size then use larrys die. which sizes the body of the case, and from memory the body is decreased further than my full length die does. so I email larry and say hey larry whats up?
and he says your better off full length sizing then using my die. and goes on to try to sell me his digital head space gauge.
so im left thinking so I should work my brass with you die more than I already do with my full length die, and my headspace measurments with the hornady gauge arnt good enough...?
and this is going to get me more loads....

so larrys die isn't even holding down any paper for me along with the neck die,(paper weight) and I still full length size to bump back the shoulder .001.

so, as you can see I cant wait to read the new re-loading book of yours Nathan. and lately im thinking I should come for a tutorial hunt and get a few other tips like re-loading. its just finding the time, but im sure it will be well worth it.

ps you don't have to try to answer everything iv just said,(we havnt got all day) I was mainly wondering is there such thing as a "magnum" 7mm neck die...
[b]
24 Aug 2013
@ 05:30 am (GMT)

Ross Goldsack

Re: Neck sizing dies??
24 Aug 2013
@ 05:55 am (GMT)

jason brown

Re: Neck sizing dies??
damb mine is #46044 7mm neck die. (I brought it for my 7mag)
is there a difference? after all doesn't it only size the neck?
24 Aug 2013
@ 05:33 pm (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: Neck sizing dies??
The two Hornady dies differ a wee bit.

Jason- you have the correct die. It will do .280 Rem to 7mm Rem Mag which includes cases like the 7x64 and 7x61 S&H.

The die that Ross posted above is a newer model to cater to the RUM's (thank you very much Ross). Obviously, the inner die body is fatter for the fat RUM case, the shoulder angle is sharper. Ross uses this die for 7mm Practical.

Now, being that the RUM is fatter than the Practical, there is potential for misalignment / poor concentricity and therefore poor bullet run out (bullets not facing square and true to the bore). However, we have been able to "get away" with this. Ross's ammunition is displaying very low run out. At the 700 round count mark, the rifle shot a one hole group at 100 yards a few weeks ago.

Ed, you need to ring me of a morning. I am pretty sure we can nail problems without fuss.
25 Aug 2013
@ 04:23 pm (GMT)

Ed Stewart

Re: Neck sizing dies??
Thanks for the info. Sorry Nathan I didnt get your email until late in the day.
I had been looking at the Lee collet die and the Redding bushing dies. The Redding is a bit out of my price range but if it is good it is worth saving up a bit more to get one. I am assuming that I dont really need the one with the micrometer on top just the type s die.
25 Aug 2013
@ 06:30 pm (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: Neck sizing dies??
Yes, no great need for the micrometer.

Tough call recommending which is better. There is always the possibility that a cheap die will work very well for you. The Lee has worked very well for thousands of shooters. I don't really want to deal in absolutes or push you beyond your budget.
25 Aug 2013
@ 07:13 pm (GMT)

Ed Stewart

Re: Neck sizing dies??
No worries, I always seem to spend more then I intend to with reloading stuff. I have 3 calibers that I am reloading at the moment so I may try the Lee for one and Redding for another and see what works best for me. The last thing I wanted to do was go and buy one only to find out the design was crap and waste my money.
25 Aug 2013
@ 08:24 pm (GMT)

Trevor Wilkes

Re: Neck sizing dies??
Gday guys.
Ed I use redding bushing dies for all my rifles with great results best results come if you turn necks which I dont so you can make them work for you if you know how.
Rather than a long winded post if you go that way post back here before you buy and I give you the heads up.
I use the neck and full length bushing dies and just so your aware if you go the bushing dies you will need multiple bushings to size down your fired case or your necks will not be concentric example 308 fired case size 343 first pass 340 bushing then 337 then 334 gives me my desired neck tension with rem brass as my loaded round measurment is 336 neck OD this will differ depending on brass brand.
As said I will save the rest for later if you go that way.

Cheers.
26 Aug 2013
@ 02:46 am (GMT)

Ed Stewart

Re: Neck sizing dies??
Ok thanks Trevor. I had wondered if not turning the necks would effect the bushing dies. Hadn't realised that I would need 2 or 3 bushings per caliber though so thats another expense to factor in.

Michael that link for the Lee dies looks very helpful so I will use that if I go with one of them. Thanks, Ed
26 Aug 2013
@ 07:45 pm (GMT)

faulkner

Re: Neck sizing dies??
Ed,
I have using the redding "S" comp dies in the 308 win and 300 win mag, I also use a .311 bushing to neck size for a 7mm Practical in the 300 die. The ammo that I have been able to produce is perfectly concentric and neck tensions in Norma and Lapua brass are very consistent and the die also have a minimal impact on work hardening (300 Win Mag on its 5th loading with no issues). I don't neck turn for either of these calibers and I can't see reason to yet. I am a bit surprised that Trevor uses multiple bushing to neck his down, if it works for him great but bushings aren't cheep and and I have not seen a need even with running unfired 300 brass into a .309 bushing to make 7 Practical brass.
I even checked my number;
308 win Lapua 0.0155 wall, .344 fired case, .338 loaded.
300win Norma 0.0145 wall, .340 fired case, .336 loaded.
I use a .335" titanium nitride bushing for both, if you turn them upside down you get another .0005" tighter. Accuracy for both rifles is fantastic and the ES for the both is single digit.

Anyways good luck with what ever you decide!! Aj
26 Aug 2013
@ 08:22 pm (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: Neck sizing dies??
Thanks for the input AJ.
26 Aug 2013
@ 11:11 pm (GMT)

Trevor Wilkes

Re: Neck sizing dies??
Aj
Im curious do you get the same results with lesser quality brass.
I was advised by several people that use bushing dies not to size the neck in one go and redding also state to do the same so thats how I ended up with my process with great results.
But if its working for you im wondering where Im going wrong the reason for asking about lesser quality brass I purchased lapua brass the other day so may see if the result is different my thinking is more consistant neck thickness could be the key for more consistant neck tension but what about neck runout.

Cheers Trev.
27 Aug 2013
@ 11:15 pm (GMT)

faulkner

Re: Neck sizing dies??
Hey Trevor,
The only lesser brass I have run though the Redding dies was Hornaday 300 win mag to make 7 mm Practical. I rolled the case necks in graphite inside and out and sized then in one step with a .311 bushing, I fire formed with a 150 game king at 3200 ft/sec, concentricity was less than .002". Second sizing was with a .311 or .309 bushing developing a load for the 190 Matrix. I found a load but consistency was off (really short throat) I then tried a few few other things and discovered annealing was way over due, concentricity was always good tho but neck tension was the issue. I am planning on using Remington brass once I get the rifle back from the smith for throat lengthening, I would use Norma brass but I don't want the same head stamp on two caliber that I shoot regularly. When I do the Remington brass I am going to anneal then size in the graphite again. Its a fairly good jump from 308" to 284" so I may need to adopt your practice of steps.
I hope this helps you out, it has me! Thanks, Aj
27 Aug 2013
@ 11:49 pm (GMT)

faulkner

Re: Neck sizing dies??
Trevor, I just realized I didn't answer your question on neck run out, I'll have to get back to you after I take some measurements, so give me a few days once the work week is finished. One thing to mention tho is if your getting great results with your process than stick with it, doesn't sound like theres anything wrong if the finished product is right! Aj
29 Aug 2013
@ 05:59 am (GMT)

Ed Stewart

Re: Neck sizing dies??
Ok so it turns out that the Redding type S dies arent $180 like I thought they are only $95 for a standard one. I will order one for my 22-250 tomorrow and go from there. The measurment for my loaded round with Lapua brass is 0.2515" (6.39mm) so I dont know if I should get a 0.249" or 0.250" bushing or both.
Sounds like there are a few different techniques for using them but if the results are good then they cant be faulted.
Ed.
29 Aug 2013
@ 04:14 pm (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: Neck sizing dies??
Redding tests show less runnout with mild tension, my tests show a higher ES with less tension so while we may have good 100 yard accuracy with less tension, long range accuracy can be effected. Ideally, we would have a full range of bushings but we soon discover that this is not economical. Ultimately, I err towards higher neck tension if the cartridge is to be used at very long ranges.

The neck die is one part of the equation. My tests show that the seating die also has a profound effect.

ES- Extreme velocity spread from shot to shot. A high ES causes great vertical dispersion at long ranges.

Runnout (either case neck or bullet)- effects alignment of the bullet to the bore.

Got to get this reloading book done asap...

29 Aug 2013
@ 06:17 pm (GMT)

Ed Stewart

Re: Neck sizing dies??
Thanks Nathan.
Will save the rest of my reloading questions until your book comes out as I am sure it will have everything I need to know just like the first one.
29 Aug 2013
@ 06:17 pm (GMT)

Ed Stewart

Re: Neck sizing dies??
Thanks Nathan.
Will save the rest of my reloading questions until your book comes out as I am sure it will have everything I need to know just like the first one.
04 Sep 2013
@ 10:57 pm (GMT)

faulkner

Re: Neck sizing dies??
So I got my 7mm08 on Monday and that night I FL sized Federal 7mm08 brass that I picked up at the range over a year ago and in a .308 win die just till a candle sooted case had a light ring 1/16" contact on the shoulder. I then used a .309 bushing in the neck sizing .308 win Redding comp die and after seating bullets had run out of less than .002" measured on a RCBS case master, some where zero! One other thing is I thought I might run into a problem of possibly getting a little bulge where the 308 die stops making contact close to the neck of the 7mm, I could not see anything and chambering was really smooth and a consistent "slight" resistance when closing the bolt. The test load shot quite well the neck day.

Aj.
 

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