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> Help and guidance for new'ish shooter
Help and guidance for new'ish shooter
@ 05:03 am (GMT) |
Carsten PedersenFirstly a huge thanks to Nathan for sharing his extensive knowledge, I think Terminal Ballistic Studies is by far the best technical resources on the internet.I need advice, I’m a fairly new shooter, have only been shooting rifles a couple of years since emigrating from Denmark to Queensland. I’m sorry for the long explanation but need to be steered in the right direction and can only do so by explaining where I am now. I have been shooting with Australian Deer Association and have just joined SSAA Conservation Management to get access to hunting grounds. I like to shoot Cats, Fox, Dogs, Pigs, Goats and Fallow and Red Deer for fresh venison, I am no trophy hunter and never thought of shooting anything larger than a Red Deer but never say never. Above species will be bread and butter type stuff and I want to not only get much better at shooting but also get confidence at longer ranges with a simple and effective outfit. I have a Savage Weather Warrior 223 with a Sightron SII Big Sky 6-20x50 (dot reticule) and a Winchester 70 Featherweight in 7mm-08 with a Zeiss Conquest 3-9x40 (bloody terrible, the first scope I got would not hold zero). I reload for both rifles, the 223 is sweet but the 7mm-08 is temperamental. So, I haven’t experimented with heavier bullets or seating depth yet (at .5mm from landing) but soft nose 140gr projectiles like the Hornady Interlock SP’s seem to hover just over MOA at 100m and have given me the best groups with the odd ¾ inch 3 shot groups. Federal factory stuff seems to shoot ok as well. I can’t get close groups out of 139gr Hornady SST’s or 120gr V-Max’s with ballistic tips, using upper range of 2208, 1.5 - 3 inch groups are much more the norm with some flyers. All testing is done from bags. If the 7mm-08 is worth building on I will have it bedded and play much more with the reloads. If not, I was thinking about selling both rifles and just get one for above game, using the Sightron scope from the 223. I was thinking of selling the 223 as I don’t really use it, I don’t think foxes care if shot with a 7mm or a 223. Would you have a good reason for me to keep it? What are your thoughts, flog both rifles and buy a new, perhaps more suitable calibre or flogging the .223 and build the 7mm-08 into a 500m killer (not sure what kind of legs this calibre has really)? What are your thoughts on a decent new rifle, Remington 700(any model with a 22”-24” barrel), Weatherby, CZ, Browning, Tikka etc? It’s almost blasphemy to put a massive 6-20x50 scope on a classic Winchester 70, do you consent? Waiting for the Long Range Hunting book to turn up, with that and some advice from you, I’ll make up my mind about what to do. Can someone lent me a million bucks to buy a hunting property around Kilcoy ☺ Many thanks in advance Carsten Pedersen Burpengary, QLD |
Replies
@ 06:41 am (GMT) |
jason brownRe: Help and guidance for new'ish shooterI think everything will make more sense once you read the book.you could probably make your 7mm-08 work for you, or if you want new ideas, thanks to Nathan I really like my 7mm rem mag, Remington sendero. which might suit you. |
@ 08:43 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Help and guidance for new'ish shooterHi Carsten, thanks for your kind comments and thanks for buying the book.I could end up re-writing half the book here in order to answer your questions. I will try to answer in summary, you can use the book to delve into greater detail which may sound daunting but is really quite straight forwards once you get into it. The M70 rifles are a mix of good and bad. Some shoot just fine, others are more troublesome and require a birthday in order to get into shape. The three main variables you have to contend with are: The rifle Hand loads / ammo Shooting technique. The book will help you address the rifle. However, in the mean time: 1. check to make sure the middle action screw (in front of trigger) is loose otherwise it may flex the action and stock. 2.Check the rate of fouling as per the instructions in the barrel break in article. I have an article on the site regarding shooting technique (Hold that Forend): 3: Read Forend article over and over again. I will write fully detailed book on this subject and field work in the near future. Hand loads: Your 7mm-08 has long freebore. You will not be able to get close to the lands. If you try and get close, you will lose concentricity (see COAL article). So, 4. Seat bullets to 71mm for smooth feeding and optimum concentricty through your M70 magazine (72mm internal). 5.Use ADI 2208 powder. Because of the welter weight barrel, you may have to start right down low, then work right up through the velocity range. If using 140 grain bullets, work up to around 43.5 grains as per the manual. This is a typical sweet spot. I usually work up to 44.5 (caution, this is above max) but normally find best accuracy within the manual recommendations. With the 162gr A-max, 42 grains is a typical sweet spot in rifles I have tested (note, above max). But in problematic welterweights, I have loaded right down to 2400fps. In other instances, I have tested up to 43.5 grains which is again above manual maximum so I cannot suggest this as a safe practice. Please refer to the ADI manual for recommended load data. Do not worry about bedding at this stage, the factory bedding will suffice for testing. Follow all of the above steps, if the rifle still does not shoot, you will need to decide between a full rebuild or buying a new rifle. I think a .223 would be handy to keep for feral cats, just to keep ammo costs down. But if you want to use one rifle, I get that. I have varminted with a .270Win simply because it was all I had on hand at that time, it had both great reach and accuracy. Your range of 500 meters is sound for the 7mm-08. It is a good allrounder. However, if you add scrub bulls to the list, I would prefer to see you use a .30-06 as an allrounder. I am in the middle of the next book, cartridges for long range hunting. This will get into the nuts and bolts of each cartridge. I have narrowed it down to around 40 cartridges all told, tips and tricks, won't have much in common with the knowledge base, just a 'get down to business' approach. OK, I hope that gives you a direction to start in. |
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@ 07:53 am (GMT) |
Carsten PedersenRe: Help and guidance for new'ish shooterHi NathanThank you very much for taking time out to answer my questions, your answers mean a lot but have left me with a couple more, a few things I am not quite sure of. My Winchester don’t have an external magazine but is loaded through the top, bottom opens up to release rounds, internal space I have measured to be exactly 73mm. Also there are not 3 screws underneath that holds the action in the stock, just 2 hex, one between trigger guard and grip and one in front of the magazine plate hinge. Does that change the 71mm COAL you mentioned and of cause the action screw tension? With this COAL stuff, it must be the overall cartridge length from tip of projectile to back of cartridge, the measurement seem a bit imprecise, tips on projectiles vary, perhaps .5mm on ballistic tips but much more on flattened lead soft points. Should I find the best projectiles without dents and seat them to 71mm OAL and use that setting for the rest? Previously I have seated 139gr Interlocks SPs to 72.2 (touching landing at 72.7), 139gr SSTs to 72.9 (touching at 73.52) and 120gr V-Maxs to 72.46 (touching at 72.96). The Interlocks worked well at 41-42gr of 2208 while the SST’s worked best around 43gr I have had 2 blown primer pockets around 44gr with CCI BR primers but that could also be down to loose primer pockets in my factory federal cases that has been reloaded 5-6 times I guess, I have a healthy respect for max loads. I now use Federal primers recommended by my local gunsmith. ADI states 41gr is max for the 162gr V-Maxs, I’ll try them out starting from 38.5 as per manual and see how they go. As I don’t trust the optical setup on the Winchester I’ll put the 6-20x50 Sightron on it, it has weaver bases and rings at the moment, can you recommend a different set of rings and bases, I’m guessing if it going to be “just” a 500m rifle there is no reason in a fancy set of canted bases/rings. With the 223, If I was going to keep it as a light varmint/practise rifle, would the rifle be capable taking game up to say Dogs/Goats to 300m or so using the 55gr V-Max projectiles? Barrel is 1:9 twist so I could use heavier projectiles but I do like those little V-Maxs. I admit to having a lot to learn about shooting technique with the 7mm-08, the 223 is much easier to shoot from a bipod. I’ll start learning about your forend technique I find the sling wrapping a little hard to master, also I have poor trigger control, sometimes jerking rather than squeezing, lastly I can sometimes rush a shot, giving me flyers. I am aware of these things and am slowly getting better. I am looking forward to all your books, knowledge is power, dead varmints and meat in the freezer. With our first trip to NZ planned next year, I’ll see if there are funds for some one – one practise with you. Thanks a million for your expert advice Nathan Regards Carsten |
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@ 08:29 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Help and guidance for new'ish shooterHi Carsten, that sounds like one of the newest rifles. Winchester changed to a one piece floor plate with the Extreme rifle recently. I am still playing catch up in this regard, even though the rifles have been out for a while.Yes, bullet lengths differ. Simply measure and record the length of the bullet you used to determine max COAL. Use the same bullet you used to determine max COAL when setting up your seating die. Later, if you need to experiment with seating depths, find a bullet within the pack that has the same length as the one you recorded. This is all relevant to measuring COAL without a collimator. Your max COAL is a concern. Either the throat has been cut short with a dodgy or reground reamer or your measurements are wrong. If the throat is short, you will need to down load for best accuracy. Will need to run a 140 grain bullet between 2650 and 2700fps at a guess. The 162gr A0max will need to be run pretty slow. You describe blown primers at 44 grains with 140 grain bullets so I will assume that your measurements are correct and that the rifle does indeed have a mis-cut chamber. I am not liking this very much. Although the .223 is adequate for shooting goats out to 300 meters and although some shooters will push ranges out as far as 500 meters, I would much rather see you use something along the lines of the 7mm-08 or .308. I don't give a shit what such and such a shooter can do with a .223, my concern is the animal versus sudden wind drift, not how good a shot a bloke is. With the information you have given, I think you were right in the first instance, wanting to use a larger cartridge as an allrounder. My typical hack is a heavy barreled .308. |
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@ 09:43 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Help and guidance for new'ish shooterOk, I have gone through my books, I see I have had a couple of 7mm-08 rifles with relatively short throats. Not quite as short as yours that but still fairly short, 139gr SST Max COAL 74mm. Other rifles were up to 76.14mm max COAL. If I interpolate data, taking into account what you have said about past pressure signs, you should be about 50fps below typical sweet spots. So 2700fps with 139-140 grain bullets and 2600fps with the A-Max.I don't think there are any safety concerns as long as you follow the ADI manual. |
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@ 10:49 pm (GMT) |
Carsten PedersenRe: Help and guidance for new'ish shooterYou had me worried there for a second NathanMy measurement can easily be out .5mm or so measuring overall cartridge length due to tip of projectile being shaved a bit or me not taking care extracting dummy cartridge. I don't have a chronograph so will have to plug your figures out and use the manual to get a circa point and work from there. Anyway, I'll seat my future reloads to 71mm over all cartridge length and see what happens, I did notice that the rifle doesn't like hot loads so food for thoughts. If I cannot get 140 and 162 grainers to group under moa with a bit of practise and playing with handloads, I'll sell it and get a Rem 700 in either .308 or another 7mm-08. You are a fantastic help, thanks Nathan. Carsten[b] |
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@ 12:02 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Help and guidance for new'ish shooterYou mentioned that the mag box is 73mm. Seat to 72mm for smooth feeding. There will be plenty of the bullet in the case, regardless of what pointed bullet you use.If you get really muddled as you go along, call me at home please, business hours. Sometimes it simply calms the mind to have a chat and an over the phone cuppa. |
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@ 12:41 am (GMT) |
Carsten PedersenRe: Help and guidance for new'ish shooterThat is super kind of you NathanI'll seat as you advise to 72mm regardless of bullet type and will take my time reloading again to around 2700/2600fps (using the ADI manual) and hope that will get some good groups, it'll be fun to play around with once frustration is taken away. If I get stuck I might take you up on your kind offer. I owe you one! Cheers Carsten |
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