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> big long range rifle
big long range rifle
@ 05:05 am (GMT) |
trevor savagewhats the biggest long range rifle the average man can afford to shoot.the 308 works well for everything i do, i had a 300 win mag and that was ok but i want big like .50, i like the 338 magnums, what do people think/use. i mostly shoot paper and goats. |
Replies
@ 05:29 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: big long range rifleHi Trev, it really comes down to the projectiles. There is no point having a .338 and firing a 250-300 grain match bullet that won't expand on lean goats or lean deer. All of that recoil and powder for what? an animal that runs off into the distance with a pencil wound, eventually expiring but certainly not a fast kill. If you look at the .338 projectiles, the only brand that really gets the job done at long ranges is the Rocky Mountain. These bullets produce wide wounding on goats but still produce delayed killing on animals weighing less than 40kg/88lb at extended ranges. If you go up to the .375 caliber, the Rocky Mountain is still the best bullet for the job. If you go to the .50, the A-Max is the way to go. Having said that, .50 cal wounds with FMJ bullets produce relatively fast bleeding. That's not really any different to using a Remington rolling block .50/70 at bush ranges, not exactly spectacular but effective nonetheless. If you can afford to run these projectiles, then sure, go for it.Try not to hold any illusions about increased killing power via wider bullets and high velocities. At long ranges, fast killing always comes down to the nature of the bullet used. |
@ 08:53 am (GMT) |
JimRe: big long range rifleYou seem to be asking about cost to shoot... so here is my two cents' worth. I am a Systems Engineer for the US Department of Defense and I test all kinds of weapons, so I have had a lot of 'hands-on' with rifle performance. I have been down this path already regarding cost of operation, and after 'doing the math', I believe that the 300 RUM is the round you may want to consider. This is particlurly true if you hand-load (which you should any way if you want low cost and premium performance). I own a lot of rifles, both custom and stock, in all kinds of calibers... from 338s, 8mms, all the way down to 223 WSSM and 17HMRs, but I own 3 rifles in the 300 RUM, which I can shoot for easily less than $0.75 cents per round once I own the brass. The brass costs about $1.10 per piece brand new and I can reuse the brass about 5 times. So, even with brass cost factored in, cost to shoot per round is about $1.00 every time I pull the trigger, as compared to 338 Lapua commercial rounds costing as much as $5-$6 each shot. I buy Remington brass and then cull out the marginal pieces during my brass prep. I usually find I discard less than 10 per cent of the brass during my "QA" process. And in my custom 300 RUM with 30 inch barrel I get trajectory performance approaching the 338 Lapua (albeit with a lighter bullet - I use Alliant powder and the Hornaday 208 gn AMAX with amazing results). Trust me, you really want a long barrel and slow-burning powder to get premium, accurate performance from the 300 RUM. 338 Lapua brass costs are very high, and the 338 Lapua is banned from use at many of our local ranges! :<( My favorite 300 RUM rifle is a custom Rem 700BDL stainless receiver with a 30 inch heavy profile BRUX rifle barrel on a Knoxx Axiom U/L solid aluminum recoil-absorbing stock that absorbs recoil very well. The rifle is equipped with a Burris XTR tactical scope in 6-24X and a Harris S type bipod. I recommend against a muzzle brake with the 300 RUM - I made this costly mistake - muzzle blast is EXTREMELY loud with a brake and you don't want to loose your hearing or suffer from detached retinas - go with the Knoxx Axiom U/L stock and you wont have to worry about either recoil or stock bedding at all. With the 300 RUM cartridge, this custom rifle is about .25-.4 MOA when I am shooting well, and is effective on game well beyond 1,000 yards. And, I get less than 1 MOA with my stock Model 70 in 300 RUM as well, when I use hand loads. Be advised, my custom rifle with 30 inch barrel is a physically heavy rifle, but recoil is very low for such a high-powered round as a result. My wife can shoot it accurately from a bench or prone, and she weighs 94 pounds... she just has trouble carrying it~! :<). She likes to shoot it much better than my 308, as a matter of fact. When cost to shoot is considered, and you want long range and sufficient caliber to take virtually any North American game at long range, then this caliber is worthy of consideration. In case you are interested, my custom 30 inch rifle was built to my specs by RW Snyder Custom Guns in Manning, Iowa. If you simply must have a larger caliber, go with the Remington 338 Ultra Mag. Brass is one third that of the 338 Lapua in cost and ballistics are, for all practical purposes, almost the same - particularly if you hand-load. If you are willing to accept 700-800 yard performance for hunting, the 7mm Rem Magnum is also a very good choice... it just lacks the "bragging rights" factor. And, the 7mm Rem Mag can shoot much farther... but with reduced energy levels. I hope this helps... |
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@ 04:12 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: big long range rifleHi Jim, I like the heavy barrel as opposed to a brake also. Sometimes it is practical for hunting (quad bike rifle), other times it can be a bit too much.I am just about to finish off a project. It is a custom .300 Weatherby magnum. I set the throat length specifically for no bullet jump with the 208gr A-Max. There is still plenty of free bore with traditional hunting bullets so the rifle will handle Weatherby factory ammo, though pressures will be high. The rifle will do very well with Federal factory ammo in this regard, a bit of free velocity. The rifle has a full varmint contour (like Sendero) 28" barrel. I used the British sniper method of taping and painting the stock. This increased friction at the forend considerably. The rifle recoils slightly less than a Sendero 7mm rem mag I have been testing along side it. Sweet spots for accuracy are between 3015 and 3125fps with the 208gr A-Max. Max COAL is 3.760 (95.5mm). A wyatt magazine box is fitted to allow the long COAL. It is my hope, that the long neck and short throat will help extend barrel life to a degree. In other words, although the throat will wear, I am hoping that via reworking loads at about the 700 round mark, the client will have the opportunity to continue using the barrel for a few hundred more rounds. The throat will need to be polished occasionally as described in the Barrel break in article I wrote- giving the RUM a birthday (bottom of page). Without polishing, in recent bore studies we have found that heat erosion begins to occur at less than 250 rounds in cartridges as small as the 7mm rem Mag. The rifle is somewhat heavy but because the client is physically very strong, he will be able to use it on day hunts as opposed to the rifle being strictly a range/quad bike hunting rifle. 
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@ 05:09 pm (GMT) |
JimRe: big long range rifleHi Nathan, Nice rifle!I agree... the brakes on really high-powered rifles can cause some health issues. You seldom see any press on this aspect. If you think about it, 3000-4000 ft-lbs of energy creates a significant, high-velocity pressure wave when expanding out the end of the barrel, and it doesn't care a hoot about your ears or eyes. When it gets deflected towards you, even mildly, there is a chance of problems with eyes and ears. I know of two cases of retina detachment caused by guns with poorly designed brakes (...and there are several bad designs out there - guys who are more focused on reducing recoil than they are on the human factors and health impacts). In one case, a child was lying next to the shooter in the prone position. The child now has only one good eye. Sad story indeed. Muzzle brakes need to be respected. Yes, the 300 Weatherby is an excellent round as well. Some would argue it is better than the 300 RUM. And, yes, the additional barrel length will pay off with this round. Tuning your loads for these calibers can take some time, but once you have the proper 'recipe' the rest is pure joy. Being able to hit a pie plate-sized target consistently at 1,000-plus yards is a real hoot. I live in Arizona, and as I get older, I have changed my hunting tactics a bit. I now try to find a good "perch" and wait for the game to come to me. With the kind of reach these rifles offer when properly set up, you can do a lot of hunting from a good location without too much hiking. And, this means you don't have to lug the heavy gun around too much (definitely a "plus"). The key here is "set up properly"... which you clearly have a handle on. With a 30 inch barrel you can get a little more velocity with the 208 AMAX and the right powder, but as you obviously already know... the highest velocity is not nearly as important as standard deviation, which is the fundamental behind all accurate shooting. And, the 208 gn AMAX has an excellent BC. What part of the country are you from, Nathan? Do you hunt as well? |
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@ 05:21 pm (GMT) |
JimRe: big long range rifleI just noticed... you are in New Zealand! What a beautiful country! I would love to come to New Zealand to fish and hunt some day. I have hunted North & South Marerica quite a bit, but I hear your trout fishing is superb! |
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@ 05:22 pm (GMT) |
Jim HomerRe: big long range rifle...that's North & South America...! Obviously a defective keyboard on my end! |
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@ 06:17 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: big long range rifleHi Jim, I am in the Taranaki region, North Island. Yes I hunt a great deal, all of the cartridge / terminal ballistics research info on this website is from our (Steph and I) autopsy results. We are over the 8000 head of game count now. New Zealand hunters tend to be a bit lucky as we have no game seasons so we can hunt all year around.Now that I am very busy with the site, writing and gun work, I am becoming ever more reliant on clients and some of our readers helping me with field work. This means that the autopsy results keep coming in on a week to week basis. Those who help, put a great deal of effort into recording every detail using the same methods I use so that we are on the same page. This also creates a level of non bias and allows info to come in from anywhere in the world, differing game species. I am immensely grateful for this help. My father in-law says "people need people" and this is certainly true in my experience. I am thoroughly annoyed with current trends in muzzle brake design. It used to be that brakes were vented 90 degrees, now they are vented back to the shooter. Its just over the top. In the long range book I recently wrote, I addressed these issues and also experimented with partial recoil reduction using a forwards ported brake. It dampened recoil to a manageable level in a .375RUM without the problems of a rear ported brake. It is not the same as a 90 degree brake, but it serves a purpose. Regardless, like you, if possible I try to avoid brakes altogether. |
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@ 06:27 pm (GMT) |
JimRe: big long range rifleNathan, you are "spot on". The reality is, the more blast is deflected backwards, the more effective the brake is... and the more dangerous it is. The reward thrust of the gases drive the firearm forward, countering the reward movement of the firearm caused by the energy of the round as it is fired. Basic physics.The bad news is, people can get hurt... badly. But no one wants to talk about that. :<( If I ever get to New Zealand, I'll stop by to chat! (...bought your eBook, by the way! Nice work!) Regards... Jim |
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@ 11:33 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: big long range rifleThanks Jim. |
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@ 03:50 am (GMT) |
trevor savageRe: big long range riflethanks, thats some good food for thought |
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