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> Precision long range hunting and shooting
> Shed Weight, or Retain it?
Shed Weight, or Retain it?
@ 08:27 am (GMT) |
Adam GibsonI'm not a hunter, just a guy who's interested in the theory. No experience with killing anything bigger than a coyote.Would you say it's better for a bullet to retain its mass during expansion, or shed it? IE, an Amax does its thing in a veritable explosion of soft lead that goes everywhere once inside the animal. Sometimes. Whereas Hornady promotes their ELD-X bullets with details about how it retains its mass during expansion. I know the Amax wasn't actually designed with killing things in mind. I just hear conflicting things. If shedding weight is what makes the Amax so effective, why would Hornady design their ELD-X (which was purposefully designed with hunting in mind) NOT to do this? Is it all to do with penetration? What's better? Is there a balance to be found? |
Replies
@ 01:43 pm (GMT) |
Bryan WebsterRe: Shed Weight, or Retain it?Nathan has yet to update the knowledge base articles he has written over a long period of time, and the ELD-X bullets are new.if you have read his articles in the knowledge base with respect to handloading bullets for the likes of the .308 Winchester and the 7x57 Mauser, you will take away from that he says A-Max bullets as well as SST bullets may blow up at close up shots if they hit heavy bone. My limited understanding of the ELD-X so far is it is a very good killing bullet from in close to way out there if you have the capability and accuracy to shoot way out. |
@ 01:53 pm (GMT) |
Lane SalvatoRe: Shed Weight, or Retain it?Adam,There are lots of circumstances that weigh into the choice of bullet. To keep it simple, you have to match the bullet weight to the game weight and expected range that you'll be hunting. Nathan's book "The Practical Guide to Long Range Cartridges", is just that. A great resource for long range hunters. In my experience, most hunters take animals at ranges of less than 300 yards. The rules are a bit different at the shorter ranges because you can rely on velocity to help expand tougher bullets, and you can rely on hydrostatic shock. At longer ranges, 600 to 1,000 yards you need more frangible bullets to induce fragmentation so you don't get small wounding. A quick example. If you are going to hunt elk at normal ranges (0 to 300 yards) with a 7 mm Remington Magnum, you can use a 175 grain soft point bullet (regular design) and do great. If you're hunting with a 270, something like a Barnes X or Nosler Partition would work better because you don't have the mass or velocity available from the 270 like you do the 7 mag. If you're hunting whitetail, antelope, axis deer, fallow deer, sheep, etc. at 0 to 300 yards, a 270 with a soft point bullet (See Nathan's cartridge book) work great, and in my experience give quicker kills than tough bullets like the Barnes. In the knowledgeable Nathan has a paper written on the killing power of bullets that details wounding, preferable shot placement, etc. It's a good resource. You have to recognize that long range hunting is a specialized task that requires a different approach than hunting at regular distances. There is crossover but bullet selection is different. It took me awhile to figure this out, and I hunt at normal distances. If you're interested in long range hunting, Nathan's books will help you more than other resources. There is a lot of Bullshido out there on the web concerning long range hunting and it can lead to false bravado and wounded game. Nathan's work is the real deal. |
@ 08:06 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Shed Weight, or Retain it?Thanks for the warming comments guys.To remove some confusion for you Adam, the ELD-X does shed weight and is not vastly different to the A-MAX. In plain terms, it is a hybrid between the SST and A-MAX designs. Some Hornady techs were using the A-MAX for hunting right from the start, though they never spoke of this. The new bullet helps overcome some of the short comings of the A-MAX (see cartridges book). There is a pdf on the blog featuring some ELD-X test results (June news letter). The article Lane referred to is titled Effective game killing. |
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@ 09:37 pm (GMT) |
Adam GibsonRe: Shed Weight, or Retain it?Thanks. I'll give it a look. |
@ 09:19 am (GMT) |
Mike DavisRe: Shed Weight, or Retain it?if you have not a lot of weight to begin with...you need to retain it to ensure penetration, like say a .223 when used on deer at your 10-175yrd range, from personal experience the 50 grn barnes TTSX works great it keeps boring through as it doesn't break upnow if you have 3 times that weight to begin with 150 grns you can afford to shed a good proportion of it and still expect a portion of projectile to keep boring on through they will both do the bizo but the bigger heavy one will be oh so much more emphatic about it...... and give you larger margin for error,which our great leader tells us about in book series as essential for ethical longer range work. balance as you say. |
@ 10:25 am (GMT) |
mark whiteleyRe: Shed Weight, or Retain it?myself I don't care to much for weight retention of projies, as long as the animal falls over when shot I am happy, I like this from bergerhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8j-7D-bubQ as well as what Nathan has written to improve them http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/Berger+VLD+annealing+tutorial.html? a mate was with me a few nights ago shooting roo's on tag's, he was using a 308 with 150gr sierra pro hunters and although they shot straight they were loosing there core settling under the skin on the opposite side and were IMO miserable with delayed killing doing high chest shots, we stopped using his loads. I've also seen thin skinned game run off as if not hit by a solid projectile like woodley power points, I do think they are a good projectile and have there place though, but as I said I am very happy if it is a bang flop and don't worry to much about weight retention if the freezer is getting filled very good question Adam regards Mark |
@ 10:55 am (GMT) |
Bob MavinRe: Shed Weight, or Retain it?It's all about matching the projectile to suit the target resistance, light framed Roo verses big heavy mud caked Pig you need two different projectiles.Shoot a blowfly with a caraway seed and you'll smash the fly to bits. Woodeigh's are not designed for light framed varmint animals. I'm very surprised that the 308 150gn Pro hunters were breaking up and staying under the skin of a Roo & not going straight through. "IF" I cull soft critters with my 308 I use 130gn Speer TNT. |
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@ 04:51 am (GMT) |
mark whiteleyRe: Shed Weight, or Retain it?in fact Bob my mate used the 130gr speer TNT after the sierras with great success, with the high chest shot the roo's chests were blown out, the same every shot, total annihilation, the roo's went down and did not get up, it was another of those time when I thought I should have a camera so I can send photos of the damage to Nathan. for this type of shooting they have great effect, his shots were up to but under 200 metersregards mark |
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