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Discussion Forums
COAL
@ 04:13 pm (GMT) |
Patrik BjörklundHi all,I have just bought and read some of Nathans books (rifles, cartridges and shooting) since I hopefully will have the chanse to do some long range hunting. I live in Sweden, Europe, and I'm new to this forum and long range hunting. This kind of hunting has no tradition here and is looked down on as something unethical one should stay away from no matter what. However one of my hunting grounds really invites to lr hunting on moose. Before I go about it though I want to learn as much as possible and get things right. I use Blaser rifles (legal limitation of no of rifles why it is good with the possibility to chage barrels) and are considering a 338 Win Mag barrel as a start of the Learning journey. Now to a few of my questions - what COAL does the 285 gr ELD-M bullet demand in 338 WM? The maximum length that my magazin will take is about 90 mm (3,54"). Nathan would recommend at least a 375 for this kind of hunting and I might be able to get a 375 Ruger barrel. However I do not know if a surpressor or brake will reduce recoil enough for me. Further I do not know if it is possible to find the Rocky Mountain ULD bullets that he recommends in Europe. Finally I would face the same question on COAL with their 370 gr bullet in 375. Maybe the 375 will be a rifle project I start if all goes well with the 338. Sorry for a long post and language errors (no spell check available)! Patrik |
Replies
@ 09:09 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: COALHi Patrik, yes, start with the .338 and monitor results. I have been quite pleased with the 285gr A-MAX / ELD-M. The .338 Win Mag will launch this at very mild velocities so this will help slow down the rate of bullet weight loss during penetration.The COAL for the A-Max is around 90mm depending on individual throat length. So you should be able to get quite close to the lands. Norma 204 powder will suffice, should be fairly cheap at present compared to other new hot shot powders. Its bulk density will suit your purposes. The Viht N series are also very good. Recoil will be fine if the rifle is suppressed (also fine for .375). Keep in mind that recoil from a heavy barrel will also be fine unsuppressed if you practice. However, the heavier the barrel, the more strain it places on the two M6 barrel attachment screws with a negative effect of accuracy, especially in the magnums. If you do want a recoil reduction device, I would opt for a suppressor instead of a brake for the sake of any hunting dogs in your company. Some Blasers go OK with neck sized ammo, some don't cycle so well and need to be FL sized. You'll need to experiment with both. Local Norma brass is very soft so you will not be able to push velocities high- but this leads back to my first point. If anyone gives you grief about ethics, tell them you would rather take a well placed shot from a prone position on a settled animal than a hurried shot from a standing position on a running animal. |
@ 09:31 pm (GMT) |
Martin TaylorRe: COALHey Patrick, welcome!You are going the right way about this, learning as much as possible to achieve an ethical & realistic outcomes. Firstly how accurate is your Blaser now? Can it be improved or maintained? What range are you calling LR? (people have very different Ideas) I can't help you with the coal's of the 338wm but will instead offer up the 300wm as a possible option for you, why? Easy to obtain projectiles of all weights, brands and styles for training at range and hunting. This is a big plus as you will need to build confidence with this combo. Manageable recoil in a suitable platform that will perform on large game to say 750 yards or so with the right combination, with lighter pills available to suit smaller game. Keep researching mate, the right answer will work its way to the top of the pile! |
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@ 09:41 pm (GMT) |
Martin TaylorRe: COALNathan you posted whilst l was typing (takes me a while, hahahahaa)I 'II stick to my calibre call as Patrick says he is new to LR, but we don't have the option of suppressors here either to help dampen things. Would make it a long rig on say a 26" barrel. |
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@ 10:04 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: COALYes, it would make for a long rig. Worse still with a forward mounted jobby.Tough call because the Blaser barrel is loaded on the two little screws, so the further you go forwards in length and weight, the greater the stress- but then the suppressor can dampen things. All one can do is experiment. It is possible to run a .338 Win Mag at 24" without any great loss in velocity- but such talk is moot, Patrik will need to see what is on offer from Blaser and run with it. But yes, you are quite correct to be concerned about length. Patrik, please do keep these things in mind. This will work OK. I would prefer to see some more bullet weight so that that more is offered for weight shedding but this combo will work due to Whelen / 9.3x62 like velocities. Comparisons can be be made to this and also the .348 Win and original 250gr Silvertip load. |
@ 11:22 pm (GMT) |
Ben LawRe: COALI have loaded some 285 amax for the 338wm at 89mm. Distance to the lands on my tikka is 89.7mm.I havent tried them yet, so dont know how they will go. Expecting max velocities to be around 2450-2500 but will have to wait and see, i dont know of any actual load data for this combo. |
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@ 04:59 am (GMT) |
Patrik BjörklundRe: COALThank you for your answers!Nathan I Know you are bussy doing research and serving us all with your great knowledge so a special thanks to you for taking your time. The Blaser barrels in 338 WM come as 24" with two contours, standard 17 mm (.67") or semi-heavy 19 mm (.74"). It is possible to get other lengths and contours from an aftermarket company (Bix'n Andy). The idea was to get the Blaser semi-heavy barrel. I had not thought about the problem with stress on the two screws though. I guess there will have to be a lot of experimenting as Nathan says. Anyway it is good to hear that the COAL for AMAX/ELD-M is within the limits of the Blaser magasin length. Martin - the barrels I have today (223 REM and 8x57) both produce sub .5" groups (100 m/y) with hand loads when I have a good day. I do not think there is a lot one can do to customice the Blaser rifles so there is a limit to what you can achieve. My goal is to learn Nathans technique and be more consistant around 0.5". LR for me will be the distance I can learn to handle when it comes to all practicall aspects in the fields, not the least reading the wind. Hopefully that will be 500 - 750 m/y on moose. |
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@ 09:37 pm (GMT) |
Martin TaylorRe: COALSounds like it shoots very well Patrick and .5 will get you out to your stated range without to much fuss.Use and most importantly train with Nathans field techniques as you've said and 500-750 will become very achievable. My 14 year old son is consistently hitting a 1ft rock with our trainer 308w/168gn at 750(cross gully) using these teachings, given favourable conditions for this small LR cal/pill combo. I wouldn't hesitate with my 300/208 Amax combo at these ranges but the extra payload of the 285 would definitely be welcome. Just check you local component availability, this has caught out many LR shooters recently including myself and l class the 30 cal as the most heavily supported by far. The 285gn .338's where impossible to get until recently, which l think Ben experienced with his setting up. |
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@ 04:32 am (GMT) |
Patrik BjörklundRe: COALGood point about component availability Martin. I will check it before getting the 338 barrel. What COAL do you have with the 208 gr AMAX? Will my 90 mm limitation be enough? I have been in contact with International ballistics in US and they are claim to be supplying the Rocky Mountain bullets (and other bullets) to Europe (direct to endusers). Probably quite expensive but a possibilty and I have to doubble check that they really can sell direct to endusers here (tuff export restrictions). |
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@ 09:30 pm (GMT) |
Martin TaylorRe: COALIf l quote an coal figure without checking it will be wrong but l'm sure they are well inside 90mm. In my standard rem 700 they feed from the mag without any issues.The R M bullets will perform extremely well on game but l don't think they are a must have for your quoted ranges & game. Using these for training etc will hurt your wallet. I don't know your shooting experience, skills etc. but from your questions & comments it sounds like you are approaching this in the same way l did, working towards an end goal in small, calculated steps (nearly 2 years!). I had self imposed range limits well within my rifle/calibres capabilities to start with of 500 yards. Even going over to spend some very valuable time with Nathan to make sure my field skills where at the level needed to confidently & ethically take animals at range. This is why l have suggested the 300wm, load it down to start with (affordable, suitable projectiles), building technique & as importantly confidence with lower recoiling LR loads (including doping & reloading skills). Then full loads in the 208-215 grain ranges to push out on 6" gongs with cold bore, first shot hits. Then last of all game animals, far to many people start straight into animals because they have purchased "a LR rifle/calibre". Sorry it's a bit long winded but that's my story! |
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@ 04:00 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: COAL24" semi heavy sounds good, the wide bore will keep the weight down.This is the same muzzle contour you used when you shot with me Marty, but at 26" with forward port brake to 29" total. I still think the 285gr is the odds on choice over the 208gr for Moose (though the new heavy .30 cal ELD-X bullets are an option). In either case, as Marty says, check on all component availability as you will need to be able to fire off a lot of rounds for practice. You may need to ask your gun store to talk to the importer. The key point is, you'll be running a mild MV if you adopt the .338 which is fine for killing, but it will suffer drift on gusty days, regardless of its high BC. So again, you need a great deal of field time and access to a good supply of projectiles. I believe it is this factor (potential wind drift) that Marty has honed in on. |
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@ 07:21 am (GMT) |
Patrik BjörklundRe: COALThank Martin for sharing your story and advice! Brownells Sweden is supplying all the ELD-M and -X bullets in both .30 and .338 as it seem. I'll just check if there is a long delivery time for the .338 (not in stock in Sweden). The available twist rate for 300WM is 1/11 and as I understand 1/10 is recommended for the 212 gr and 220gr ELD-X (the 208 gr AMAX seem to be on its way out and is not sold here, at least not by Brownells). Your thoughts on that? The 338 WM barrel has a 1/10 twist that should be ok for the 285 gr bullet. I will definately follow your advice on how to build up LR skill good enough to kill ethically. IF I can't do that with the 338 WM maybe I just should not go after moose on LR at all!? |
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@ 11:59 pm (GMT) |
Martin TaylorRe: COALThe large projectile 338wm will do all you want Patrick, please don't think l am trying to put you off it or LR hunting!I only offer Ideas and/or experiences that l have been through or helped others with. An non-recoil reduced 285gn .338 will pack a lot of clout and would be a handful to learn with and build confidence for LR, that's all. Reduced, no big deal, Nathan's 338 Edge was a pussy cat to use with the port brake he as mentioned. In fact bloody good fun to shoot and amazingly accurate past 1km. I'm sure the 30cal 208 A-max will continue as the "Match" & l don't think the 1:11 would be a huge Issue if that's the way you headed. Cheers Marty |
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