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> Medium bore
Medium bore
@ 07:31 pm (GMT) |
Jared ThibodauxLooking to add something different to my hunting rifle collection, seeing as I have never hunted with anything over 30 caliber I was thinking of adding a medium bore to the safe, but I don't want a 338 Win Mag or anything with recoil that might jolt a filling loose. Seeing as I don't need more then 250 yards range where I am currently I was considering a 338 Fed or a 358 Winchester, the 338 has about 20% more frontal area then a 30 caliber making for a noticeable increase, while the 358 has about 40% more making for a considerable increase.Brass for both of course can be formed from 308 brass which I have in gross excess. My only concern is terminal performance, of course both have vastly more energy/mass/momentum/caliber then I need for whitetail deer and feral hogs but it is the expansion that I worry about. Seems most .338 bullets are designed for 338 Win Mag speeds and the .358 cal bullets mostly seem designed for either the painfully slow 35 Remington lever guns or the considerably faster 35 Whelen and .358 Norma. By my math I could be dealing with impact speeds as low as 1750fps even at only 250 yards are there any medium bore bullets that can expand aggressively enough for thin skinned game at those speeds or do I really need to step up to a 338-06, 35 Whelen, or 9.3x62 for 250 yard terminal performance? |
Replies
@ 08:06 pm (GMT) |
Bob MavinRe: Medium boreHi Jared.I love my bolt action 358 Winchester. I mainly use 225 Sierra Game Kings with perfect results, also 225 Woodleigh's for serious stuff. 48.5gns of ADI 2206H gives me 2512fps 1/2" group, no sign of pressure I've loaded those cases 8 times now. I neck up Lapua 308W palmer case. I'm 68 80kg and it doesn't hurt me, just a big push. I've shot many animals up to big scrub bulls. Out to 300m I don't need a bigger caliber. This is a good read http://milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/Misc/358%20Winchester/The%20358%20Winchester.html |
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@ 08:48 pm (GMT) |
Jared ThibodauxRe: Medium boreWhat sized game are you using those 225gr SGKs for? While we do on occasion get some sizable hogs around here smallish 60-90kg deer are the most common game.Have heard some people claim the slower 35 caliber bullets kill just as fast with less meat damage then a high speed 270 or 30 caliber, any truth to that? |
@ 09:17 pm (GMT) |
Warwick MarflittRe: Medium boreHey Jared. I'm doing a Whelen. Have you seen this post?http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/Wound+Database/.358+cal+-+Hornady+Interlock.html |
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@ 09:45 pm (GMT) |
Bob MavinRe: Medium boreI'm using the SGK's on Fallow, Rusa, Red's & Pigs. On Fallow & yearling Rusa you could eat the bullet hole. But on heavy Rusa stags with a lot of resistance the projectile really goes to work. Yes the 358W kills very well, all mine have dropped on the spot, with a lot less meat damage than the 270.I use the 225 Woodleigh's on Samba, I've also shot a few Buffalo & Cattle with them. My 30-06 will do just as good a job but I love that thump sound the 358W makes. I like to use the 358 when culling near residential areas. I was culling Deer in a vineyard one night with a small torch mounted on my rifle. I seen two Deer eyes 50m off so shot between them. I found a tree as thick as a beer can cut off and a big Samba stag 4m behind with a bullet between the eyes. That was with a 225 Woodleigh |
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@ 09:59 pm (GMT) |
Bob MavinRe: Medium boreMy 358w is built on a L579 Sako action 22" Madco barrel McMillan stock, nice little nightforce 2.5-10x24 scope. Its a great compact 8.5lb rifle that shoots better than i can. Out to 300m I don't need anything bigger. |
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@ 12:56 am (GMT) |
Jared ThibodauxRe: Medium boreQuote: Hey Jared. I'm doing a Whelen. Have you seen this post?
http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/Wound+Database/.358+cal+-+Hornady+Interlock.html Yeah that one clearly expanded, but that is about 1,000fps higher impact speeds than I am talking about which clearly is an entirely different universe, Sure I could do a 26" barrel 358 Norma Magnum with a muzzle break but that is really not what I am looking for. High speed bullet impacts tend to make alot of deer jello, I want something that is lethal at lower speeds, and if it does not kill on impact will leave a substantial (short) blood trail. Larger caliber bullets tend to produce more uniform wound tracts and hence more free bleeding exits I though about going to a 375-458 caliber but in order to keep the recoil in a lightweight rifle reasonable with an acceptable trajectory .338 or .35 caliber seem to be the sweat spot if I can get the bullet to perform. Nothing wrong with a 35 Whelen but I don't think the extra punch is needed seeing as a 225gr .358 Win can be hitting with over 2,000 ft/lbs at 250 yards, as long as it does not pin hole I would think that would be lethal to any deer or pig that ever walked the earth. |
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@ 01:10 am (GMT) |
Jared ThibodauxRe: Medium boreNot knocking my 270 WSM or 7mm Rem Mag both are lethal long range cannons but much like my 06 up close they can be kind of messy and despite all their power tend not to leave very free bleeding exit wounds, that very well may have something to do with my choice of bullets but it has always been the case.The 7mm-08 and 6.5x55 are lethal little sissy kickers, they don't jello the front shoulders like the magnums and 06 up close and I trust them completely hunting over a food plot, but in the dense brush they are hit and miss on the blood trails, and seeing as I am only throwing 140gr I limit my shooting angles more then I would with a larger caliber/heavier projectile. |
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@ 01:48 am (GMT) |
Bob MavinRe: Medium boreMy 358win 225gn Sierra GK loaded 2512fps MV, has 2000ft/lbs & 2006fps at 220m & , 1684ft/lbs & 1836fps at 300m .The sound it makes on impact is awesome. The only projectiles I've recovered were Woodleigh's under the skin opp side of Buffalo. With Woodleigh 225's I use 49.2gns of 2206H It chronographs 2620fps, I run the Sierra's 48.5gns for 2520fps perfect !!! That's enough 358Win promotion for now. :) Bob |
@ 06:35 pm (GMT) |
Bryan WebsterRe: Medium boreI was just looking around the Nosler Web site and noted the M48 Outfitter Rifle Product Line in the following calibers. Since there is interest in the medium calibers in this thread, I thought someone might be interested.308 Win 30-06 Sprg 338 Win Mag 35 Whelen 9.3x62mm Mauser 375 Ruger 458 Win Mag |
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@ 08:45 pm (GMT) |
Jared ThibodauxRe: Medium boreInteresting, I like Nosler bullet products but never shot one of their rifles, I think they are reasonably new to that game. I was thinking about doing a Savage conversion, barrel nut rifles are inexpensive and easy to convert, only problem is the only short action Savage I have has a magnum bolt face (270 WSM) not that I would tear that one down anyway it is shooting cloverleaf groups with 150gr Gamekings and RL22. I actually bought a cheap Savage 110 30-06 for the sole purpose of converting it to a purpose build long range 6.5-06 wildcat but then made the mistake of shooting it first, now I have a $300 30-06 shooting 10-12mm groups at 100, cannot bring myself to tear it down. The only rifle I currently have that it would not hurt my feelings to alter is my Ruger 77 MkII 7mm Rem Mag, no matter what I tried I could not get it to shoot under 45mm at 100 which is not even close to acceptable in my book unless you are brush/woods hunting which completely negates the virtues of the 7mm Rem Mag. |
@ 07:31 am (GMT) |
Alvaro Piqueras Alonso-LambertiRe: Medium boreSounds that this rifle is calling for a new 358 norma barrel... |
@ 03:26 pm (GMT) |
Paul LevermanRe: Medium boreIf you are going to re-barrel, and want to increase bore size, why not go .458? You will be looking at a frontal area increase of about 160%. While not a true medium bore, it is rather versatile. Compared to your 7mm, your velocities will be considerably slower (2000fps vs. 3000fps, approx.), but energies are comparable (3109fpe vs.3238fpe, approx.). Terminal ballistics will no longer be a major factor, with good penetration and expansion, depending on bullet choice of course. A couple of calibres to consider would be the 450 Marlin or the 458 X 2. Both can be loaded up or down, to suit your needs. And both use readily available reloading components. |
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@ 06:16 pm (GMT) |
Bryan WebsterRe: Medium boreHello Jared. I was wondering if you had tried epoxy bedding your Ruger rifle?If not, check out the bedding coverage in the knowledge base as well as these forums. Also, Nathan's books have good info specifically on bedding the Ruger action. It is a little bit tougher to get it just right than say a Remington, but is doable. I would see what option there might be to sell or trade off the Ruger for something easier to work with myself as I once had a Ruger and finally gave up on it. As to what my personal preference might be for a medium caliber build, it would be the .375 Ruger in a Remington or one of the Remington Clone actions, or if you can find one, a pre 1964 Winchester action. I would put the action into a Bell and Carlson Medalist stock with the full length bedding block. Add either a Sightron SIII 3.5-10x44 or a Nightforce Compact 2.5-10x42 scope and you will have a fine rifle. When I need a larger caliber I just borrow a friend's .375 H&H Model 70. I have been after him for years to sell it to me... |
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@ 06:33 pm (GMT) |
Paul LevermanRe: Medium boreI think my math was wrong. The second time I did the frontal area, it came out at ~260%. |
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@ 09:12 pm (GMT) |
Bob MavinRe: Medium bore3200,,,,My 358 Winchester has energy of 3428 ft lbs with a 225gn pill at 2620fps. There's nothing in Australia it won't tip over.I've shot all the biggies over here with 225gn Woodleigh's with no problems |
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@ 01:03 am (GMT) |
Jared ThibodauxRe: Medium boreNo 358 Norma brass is VERY rare in the states especially the southern states that do not have elk and brown bear and forming from 7mm Rem Mag brass would be a very involved process I think. I very well may do a barrel/caliber swap on that rifle but I don't think I want a medium bore magnum, 300 magnums are more then enough for anything that walks east Texas and about as much recoil as I personally like dealing with. I have however given thought to one of the newer beltless magnums I just need to avoid the 7mm bore I have had bad luck with them, owned five of them now 4 of which were 7mm Rem Mags and all of them have given me considerable trouble. I did FINALLY get my 7mm-08 shooting good but only after several months of experimenting, for some unknown reason it only likes spherical powders, a phenomenon that I simply cannot explain. On the flip side I never met a 6.5mm I did not like and most 270/30 calibers have been great after very little work up.I really think I am going to find a cheap short action Savage to do the swap or just break down and buy a Browning BLR or used Hawkeye those are the only .358s I ever see. |
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@ 01:51 pm (GMT) |
Warwick MarflittRe: Medium boreJared that 35 Whelen item I think was a 70yrd shot with 200grn Superformance ammo @ 2800ish fps. The Whelen with a 225 or 250 grn bullet could be just what your after? Less meat damaged jello and its only a 30-06 case with 358 bullet as is the 358 Winchester a 308 case with the 358 bullet. With proper load development and Bullet choice I don't think you'd be disappointed? I'm sure that you'll Find a setup that you'll enjoy. Have fun choosing. |
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@ 03:12 pm (GMT) |
Paul LevermanRe: Medium boreYou might be mildly surprised at how the recoil from one of the short .458's compares to a .30-06 or a 7mmRemMag. With a rifle that fits properly, you might find that the big (but short) bores are more of a rolling push than a kick in the teeth. If you have a buddy that has a .375 or .458, take a few shots and see what you find. A few years back, I met a fellow at the firing range who had a 460WM. He let me pull off a few rounds, and that was that. A whole new calibre selection opened up. Plus they are fun.Both of the cartridges I mentioned burn around 50 -55 grains of fairly quick burning powders (IMR 4198), and with a 350gr. RN will produce about 3200 -3800fpe at the muzzle (book values). |
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@ 03:02 am (GMT) |
Jared ThibodauxRe: Medium boreI think 375s and .458s are a little more then I am looking for, not that they won't work clearly they do but yikes 460 Weatherby is well known as one of the hardest kicking rifles you can buy!! No don't think I need THAT much gun. The 375 Ruger has some appeal (especially in my MkII action) but again MASSIVE overkill I think, I would have to download it to 375 Hawk (375-06) levels to make it usable since I do in fact like to eat wild game not blow them to pieces. |
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@ 07:37 pm (GMT) |
Bryan WebsterRe: Medium boreReflecting on the content of this thread so far, it seems to me that Warwick's idea of the 35 Whelen would be the rifle for you. Recoil is not bad at all, and the cartridge results in drop at the shot capacity if you do your part.I once owned one in a featherweight Husqvarna. I was on the job with a large problem grizzly bear and had to shoot it at 30 feet head on. The bullet went in its throat and left an exit hole just below the tail at the far end. He just dropped on the spot. Was the heaviest Speer bullet I could load for it at the time around 25 years ago. A moose I shot the same fall that year was quartering away and I held for a heart shot. The bullet exited the opposite side with a clean hole of around 2 inches diameter. Lungs and heart were pretty messed up but there was nearly no meat lost. It dropped on the spot and as it had been running through thick brush, broke several tines off of the right antler that stopped it from the minimum for the B&C record book. Recoil from that rifle never bothered me at all compared to me Pre 1964 M70 in 30/06 that I owned at the time. The steel butt plate was hard on my shoulder at times, while the 35 Whelen rifle had a decent soft butt pad. I sold that Whelen several years later to one of our Conservation Officers, who shot a big bull moose facing him head on at about 80 yards. He said it dropped immediately and the bullet travelled its entire length and exited. Quite a cleanup job there. He was far more fussy about choosing his shots after that and still owns and loves that rifle. |
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@ 10:22 pm (GMT) |
Warwick MarflittRe: Medium borehttps://itunes.apple.com/us/app/shot-simulator/id427202530?mt=8&ign-mpt=uo%3D6 |
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@ 05:40 am (GMT) |
Jared ThibodauxRe: Medium boreBryan it seems like you have had spectacular success with the Whelen, that kind of penetration is usually the realm of Safari rifles, I doubt I will be shooting through any brown bear of moose anytime soon but just in case I ever need I know a 35 caliber can deliver. I do have a long action Savage that can be a donor action but I would have to get another 06, I won't be without a 30-06 ever, very versatile cartridge for everything that lives within a thousand miles of here and I get all the brass I ever need for free, nice having a bunch of rednecks for friends, they all save me their 06, 270 and 308 brass I have buckets of those. To resize 06 to 35 Whelen do I need to do it in two steps (aka .338 expander then .358 expander) or can I just run a 358 expander through an 06 brass? No idea if the factory synthetic Savage stock will hold up to 35 Whelen Recoil, seems to hold up to 06 just fine but would I need to reinforce or replace it? I know barrel length and contour is always a trade off but what would be a good Whelen barrel? It does not strike me as being exceptionally overbore is a 24" too long? |
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@ 05:12 pm (GMT) |
Bryan WebsterRe: Medium boreI would say if you are going want a medium bore and are going to choose a Savage action then buy a Bell&Calrson Medalist stock with the full length aluminum bedding block. They do make them for 'some' of the Savage rifles but check them out prior to getting a Savage all ready to go so you know what Savage action to use as well as the barrel channel width for each model of stock. Of course many people go to the lower priced Boyds laminated stocks too. Whatever suits your idea of what you want.I personally would try to buy a used T3 Tikka Lite or Hunter model and have it barrelled and chambered for 35 Whelen with a 22 inch heavy sporter weight barrel then go to the Bell&Carlson stock with the aluminum bedding, plunk in in, tighten the action screws to the correct torque, mount a picatinny rail on the action, get some low removable rings and get this scope: http://nightforceoptics.com/nxs/1-4x24 with the illuminated reticle, sight it in for 100 meters and go shoot. Great combo for hunting heavily timbered/brushy areas. taking such a route with a T3 you can also gain improvements such as real metal bottom metal and bolt shroud as well as better magazines and ever aftermarket triggers,,,whatever suits your fancy. Easier by far if you choose a trued Remington action to start out the build with. All that being said, you mentioned the 30/06 being your basic idea of a great rifle, and I agree. Here in NA unless you are shooting grizzly or brown bears at close range in coastal forests, there is really little need for a medium bore. If all you are shooting are deer and elk in any case. |
@ 06:59 pm (GMT) |
Thomas KitchenRe: Medium borejust thought i would mention that howa does a ruger 375 rifle.its probably bit over kill but its easy route to go for a medium bore rifle. |
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@ 07:20 pm (GMT) |
Jared ThibodauxRe: Medium boreVery true Bryan, there is little NEED for a medium bore, but if I only used what I need the only rifle I would own is my Tikka 6.5x55, spectacular all around gun for target shooting and hunting everything from varmints to deer to feral hogs with recoil that any healthy human can easily handle. I want a medium bore not because I don't currently have a rifle that fills a need but I would like to understand the appeal and difference in terminal performance vs smaller caliber high speed bullets.Tikka T3s are pretty rare here, mine is the only one I have seen at the hunting camp or anywhere around here come to think about it. While a Tikka would be a fantastic action to start with and already include a pretty good factory stock and trigger, I think that the cost of having to have a gunsmith assemble it is going to make it a considerably more expensive project then working off a Savage action, correct me if I am wrong but I don't think I can headspace a Tikka without some high end tools whereas with the Savage action I can do it with nothing but a barrel nut wrench. |
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