@ 10:32 pm (GMT)
Ricardo LaborinGents, this is my first post on the TBR forums, I'm an avid shooter and hunter from northern Mexico. The main medium to big quarry in these parts are desert mule deer, Coues whitetail, boar and some exotics (Aoudad, Axis), and a host of smaller game such as javelina, coyotes, bobcats, etc.
Although I devour literature on the matter, range days are short and very far between. I currently have a Sako 85 Finnlight (restocked in a McMillan Edge) chambered for .300 WSM that has worked pretty well since 2008. But the truth of the matter is that is a very light platform and find it very hard to shoot accurately longer than 250-300yds. I'm thinking of having a 7mm Rem Mag done specifically for longer range work. Couple of questions:
Is recoil considerably different among these cartridges, assuming all else is equal? (rifle weight, conditions, etc).
Is the 7mm a "better" long range proposition than the 300 WSM for game up to 200kg?
By long range I mean 500yds tops.
Thanks in advance for the help and Saludos from Mexico!!
@ 12:35 pm (GMT)
Re: "Upgrade" from 300 WSM to 7MM Rem Mag??Additional information:
- There's not a lot of ammo selection in Mex, so I've been using the "blue box" Federal 180 grainers. I would assume 7mmRM has to be used with the same in 150grns.
- A 270 Win can be also added into the mix. Thoughts on .270 vs 7mmRM??
- I'll use a Swarovski scope with ballistic turret or stadia lines.
@ 02:45 pm (GMT)
Re: "Upgrade" from 300 WSM to 7MM Rem Mag??Hi Ricardo, welcome aboard.
One thing I need to check is game weights. You said 200kg but I am wondering if you meant 200lb. The heat tends to keep game weights down in your location.
If you are using factory ammo and assuming game weights are generally up to 200lb, I think the 7mm Rem Mag would be an ideal choice. This is doubly so if you are reliant on factory ammunition. You will need to be careful however, most factory ammunition will run out of steam at 1800fps and it can be best to keep impact velocities to 2000fps or above, the exception being Hornady SST ammunition which will allow you to sneak down to 1600fps.
As for optics, I would prefer to see you utilize a Sightron SIII rather than a gimmicky scope made for instant gratification. If you want to shoot long, use a decent dial scope, not a hold over scope or ballistic turret type set up. Also, if you want to shoot long, you will need to think about hand loading.
I think you are on the right track or "sendero". Just a few tweaks here and there.
@ 07:15 pm (GMT)
Re: "Upgrade" from 300 WSM to 7MM Rem Mag??Thanks Nathan, glad to be here.
I assumed the 7MM is a more wise choice for my location, and yes kg slipped in there instead of lbs. Everyone is going for the hotrod 300's here and I jumped in the bandwagon with my WSM purchase, now with the benefit of hindsight it does not seem the best decision. I'll poke around a bit more and come back, but there's a gorgeous new Nesika Sporter (and Long Range) that seems could fit the bill perfectly for that 7.
Keep you posted. Saludos.
@ 09:09 pm (GMT)
Re: "Upgrade" from 300 WSM to 7MM Rem Mag??the 7mm rem mag will serve you well its fast very flat and hits hard .as Nathan has pointed out the s3 6x24x50 will get you to 500yards no problem. and a Remington 700 sendero or police model with 26in barrel will get you much further than 500yards. lap the lugs and bed the gun will get you under 3in at 500yards and they can do much better if you home load. and put time in to shooting the gun im now running more than book max. with no pressure problems thanks Nathan with 162g amax I have had two red stags over the last few days dropped on the spot and four foxes. my wife shoots this gun as well so recoil is minimal it is in no way unpleasant yet my mates 270 is a pain to shoot mine is like a 243 onley sharper get one you will not be disappointed
@ 09:49 pm (GMT)
Re: "Upgrade" from 300 WSM to 7MM Rem Mag??Ricardo the guys are spot on with the Sendero or Police in 7mm RM & SIII, a great choice that will work verywell.
Don't beat up the "hot rod 300's" to much, l think your problem is more rifle design/weight than calibre! Light weight rifles in bigger calibres are never easy to shoot as you have found out. The 7mm Rem Mag is no different.
If you search the forum pages you will see many referances to stock & rifle design, all more or at least as important as calibre choice when setting up any rifle IMO.
@ 12:51 am (GMT)
Re: "Upgrade" from 300 WSM to 7MM Rem Mag??Hi Ricardo, recoil (as a force) comes down to Newton's third law. Roughly speaking, when you apply a force, that same force will act in the opposite direction. When you accelerate a larger projectile (for the same velocity) there will be a greater force rearward. Energy out, Energy in.
Now, one can then refer to Newtons second law which has to do with the relationship between mass and acceleration. If you have a heavier rifle, then the a given rearward accelerating force will move the rifle rearwards less quickly and a lessor distance therefore less felt recoil.
Large amount of energy at the muzzle in a light rifle - lots of felt recoil.
Large amount of energy at the muzzle in a heavier rifle - less felt recoil.
If a 7mm and a 30 cal are both putting out the same amount of energy at the muzzle, then the recoil force rearwards will be about the same. What will differentiate between the two is the weight of the rifle set up.
It's not just a 7mm vs 30 question... when talking about recoil. External ballistics on the other hand could and has, filled entire books!
Then we move on to stock fit and shape - this is used to control the direction of the rearwards force and how it is applied to our bodies. This has a huge effect on PERCEIVED recoil. A poor stock fit/design will beat up a shooter, and yet another design with the same energy will be a pussy cat to shoot.
Personally I like the 30's mainly because of the availability of components. There always seems to be a reasonably good supply around. That's what did it for me.
I opted for a slightly longer barrel than the one I replaced for the extra weight. People I hunt with always remark that my rifle is heavy. Yes it is. but it's no big deal, you just get on with it.
BTW love to hear if you have any good venison/game recipes. Good luck
@ 01:10 am (GMT)
Re: "Upgrade" from 300 WSM to 7MM Rem Mag??welcome ricardo as you can see already you come to the best place to get advice from very knowledgeable people.
only question i have as im not famillar with mexico hunting.
is it walking around looking for game or position shooting (blinds /hides etc) as the type of hunting does affect rifle weight to a point
@ 02:44 am (GMT)
Re: "Upgrade" from 300 WSM to 7MM Rem Mag??Exactly right, no point having a howitzer and being stuck in the one spot! Ric have a read of this thread http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Resources/Discussion+Forums/x_forum/17/thread/4297.html It might help you out.
@ 01:45 pm (GMT)
Re: "Upgrade" from 300 WSM to 7MM Rem Mag??Guys I'm overwhelmed by your ability to help, this is by far the most engaged forum out there, thanks a lot. Answering a couple of questions:
- My style of hunting is definitely moving around, climbing steep hills and setting glassing stations. I try to shun blinds as much as possible (no offense to blind hunters).
- I'm 35 yrs old and try to keep in very good shape, so able to carry around more weight.
- I love 30 cals, have had a Mauser 06' since forever, but I seem to have messed up the setup with this un-braked ultra light Sako, and feel like dropping it for a beefier one.
- The Sendero won't do since I have a Rem 700 VSSF II in .22-250 and do not like the "feel" (completely subjective). It sits there in the safe.
- I've been talking to a gun shop about a Nesika Hunter, 300WM, with a Hart 26" 4 contour pipe, 8lbs 15oz, it's a gorgeous gun. Thoughts?
- Pics attached of typical hunting setups, a nice desert mule deer, two guns I own (Sako 85 Finnlight and Rem 700 Custom KS 270), and the Nesika in discussion.
@ 03:27 pm (GMT)
Re: "Upgrade" from 300 WSM to 7MM Rem Mag??Hi Ricardo, yes we tend to get a bit more involved on this forum at times, hope we can help in some way!
Same as Mike l was drawn to the versatility & flexability of the 30's, but thats just a personal thing. Nothing wrong with a good seven used in the right way either!
I just went onto the Nesika website having never seen these before, seem to be a very high end rifle with very good componentry! l would like to think it would work very well for you if you have the funds for such a purchase.
One note for you is that these are in Bell & Carlson stocks, Medalist & M40 styles so an easy fix for your VSSF is a simple stock change! That is the great thing with Remingtons & their clones, lots of options to suit the individual.
So there is no need to hide it in the safe, l have tuned a few of these now with Nathans guidence & products and all have worked very well for their owners.
@ 10:03 pm (GMT)
Re: "Upgrade" from 300 WSM to 7MM Rem Mag??Some thoughts:
1. I don't like the idea of a spiral port brake in dusty conditions. That's a deal breaker for me. Grit gets blasted into the eyes no matter how hard you try to stop it. Just like trying to sand blast with safety glasses as opposed to goggles.
2. A rifle weight of 8.5lb means you are either committed to a brake or do need to step into a 7mm rem Mag to minimize recoil.
3. If you are going to be using factory ammo, I would prefer you used a 7mm. A generic 180 grain soft point .300 Win Mag factory load loses a great deal of velocity and can cleave to its energy on impact when hunting lighter framed animals. Would be a completely different story if you were hand loading. Ammo choice is my concern here, not so much the bore diameter. Then again, you may be able to get 300 Win Mag SST ammo locally or perhaps use a 150 grain Ballistic Tip load out to 500 yards or so. Just try to keep all this in mind, look at the gun shops, see whats on offer. For all I know, you may have better options in .300 Win Mag (or even .300 WSM???).
So much to think about, hence the book series.
@ 11:15 pm (GMT)
Re: "Upgrade" from 300 WSM to 7MM Rem Mag??Thanks Nathan, very interesting thoughts since I do not currently own a braked rifle and shoot from the prone a lot. It would be hard (not impossible) to handload over here, but very hard indeed.
Cool thing is, already ordered the books a couple of days ago!! Prior to writing the post. This subject is fascinating and never ending....
@ 12:46 am (GMT)
Re: "Upgrade" from 300 WSM to 7MM Rem Mag??hi ricardo sorry but couple more questions if you dont mind.
do you have access to a gunsmith if you go down the semi custom or modifying route?
and are you interesting in playing around with a rifle to get it working right?
the rifle choices are endless and you'll have to get more experience advice then mine but if you got a cheaper rifle maybe something like a howa there would be alot of budget left over compared to what your currently looking at for a rebarrel or trigger good scope etc
great to hear you brought the books they are honestly worth there wait in gold
@ 02:52 pm (GMT)
Re: "Upgrade" from 300 WSM to 7MM Rem Mag??Thanks for buying the books Ricardo, I really hope you find them useful. Will definitely pay to read through first, then make a decision.
@ 04:34 pm (GMT)
Re: "Upgrade" from 300 WSM to 7MM Rem Mag??"Cool thing is, already ordered the books a couple of days ago!! Prior to writing the post"
Good move Ricardo, most of our rantings you will find in the books, you will get heaps of info from them! You will know what to look for after reading the books.
Nathan the crappy spiral muzzle brake is fitted on their LR version not the Hunter series that Ricardo was intersted in, weighing in at 8lbs plus optics. I wonder if the fore stock may be a bit slim for control, so have a look at that also Ricardo.
I forget about factory ammo avaliablity, being a hand loader, so yes some research will be needed. Hopefully you could find some options in Hornady Supaformance, with a bit of luck!
@ 08:12 am (GMT)
Re: "Upgrade" from 300 WSM to 7MM Rem Mag??Hey Thomas, answering your questions:
- There are gunsmiths, but very old fashion, not a modern rebarreling and bedding shop. I could commission something from Southwestern US.
- I would love to tinker with a gun to get it right, and it seems that's the beauty in it, the process!
Martin, thanks for the encouragement, rest assured I'll devour the literature. Nathan, I'll come back after reading with mu gut-feel of what I need.
@ 04:42 pm (GMT)
Practical Guides Read! Re: "Upgrade" from 300 WSM to 7MM Rem Mag??Gentlemen, Happy New Year to you all.
Two practical guides are now officially read - the LRH Rifles & LRH Cartridges. I'm blown away by the quality of the info and feel like I'm right there in a fireside chat with Nathan. My takeaways as follow, please critique at will!!
- Game weight - 90% 250lb or below (occasional Elk or Red Stag or Plains Game on the mix).
- MAX desired range - 650 yards.
- Access to reloading - spotty but doable.
- Hunting style - hard climbing to glassing stations, very physical, steep terrain, oak studded grass hills and canyons.
- Physical condition - 35yrs old, thin, strong (and trying to get stronger).
- The current (very) lightweight Sako 85 Finnlight platform will not do anymore, I simply can't shoot it well enough and, to be honest, a flinch has developed. Aside from this, I've been put off by the recoil lug configuration, alas, the rifle will likely be sold.
- A Rem 700 Sendero gets sexier by the day, and after all my musings and reading the books, still haven't decided on caliber. Maybe a 300WM can be a better route than the 7mmRM, given two of my close friends run 300's and we could pool our resources to reload (they own McMillan Tactical Hunter rifles). Also, component availability is considerably wider for the .30's.
- Already have the "mini-Sendero" VSSFII in .22-250 and could alternate to practice on the same platform.
- Not falling again for expensive European glass with short eye relief, so seriously looking to top off a new rifle with the NF NXS 42mm scope (up to 10x).
- I want the new rifle to be my "go to" gun for everything from small deer on up. The .22-250 covers varmints and a cool .22 for plinking.
- Having recent experience with a muzzle brake, not keen on using one at all.
I would be very thankful for advice on the following:
+ Given the General Conditions, which caliber would you pick and why?
+ Is the 300 recoil tolerable in the Sendero platform?
+ Is the Sendero portable enough to carry all day?
+ Do you think the 10x magnification is good enough for the MAX range? (could upgrade to the 15x50, but concerned about overall weight).
Saludos From Mexico!
@ 05:32 pm (GMT)
Re: "Upgrade" from 300 WSM to 7MM Rem Mag??G'day Ricardo
Maybe you could have a shot with your mates 300
I find the 7 mm RM recoil OK & it would handle your job. I struggle with the 300WM recoil.
My 30-06 weighs 10lb with a full mag, at 67yrs old I carry it all day. I have a Sightron S111 3.5-10x44 mil dot scope & love it. I often shoot Deer out to 600m & don't find 10x lacking for hunting.
@ 10:49 pm (GMT)
Re: "Upgrade" from 300 WSM to 7MM Rem Mag??for start off Im not yet a long range shooter...WHEN I get my shite sorted 500yards will be a happy range for me to accept as maximum with my old rifles...I will get there when have time to do some holes in paper time.
I use a .270 have done for years and love it to bits.
anything under 350yards has always been in deep doodoohs if we get crosshairs on it.
Ive never felt undergunned and with the choices of factory ammo being so much better than they were back before I started to reload its still a good choice in my most humble opinion (having a good read of Nathans writings has backed this up)
fit a good recoil pad,get trigger set right and you will be into it in no time. it sounds as if your shooting is mostly over open ground at 200ish yards???? so current ballistic tip type factory fodder is/should cover that nicely with premium more costly ammo for barrel stretchers or up in your face stuff.
hope that gives food for thought..biggest bonus is ammo will/should be easier to get and cost less= can practice more