@ 10:42 pm (GMT)
GREGG FOSSEIf the 358 win is underrated and unappreciated, then the 35 Rem is the sleeper of all time. For many decades the 35 rem has been quietly taking all kinds of game in the USA and Canada, and ammunition (unlike 358W) is commonly available over here. Apparently hunters here will gladly give up some range in exchange for a mild recoiling, pleasant to shoot rifle that does the job from 200 yards in. I have attached a description on the results when using the mild recoiling 35 rem on a 1200 pound feral bull but first, some art work!!
Paco Kelly on the 35 rem:
Back in the 1970s a friend that ran (director of management I think was his title) several large cattle ranches, let me eliminate Tex/Mex feral cattle from his Black Angus ranges. And just to see and settle an old argument about the power of the 35 Remington (also the 30-30 and 32 Win Special) not being sufficient for really large game...I took it feral cattle hunting. Usually it is only the bulls that migrate into the prize cattle ranges. And they have a nasty habit of trying to impregnate very expensive beef with their stringy meat genes. So you can imagine that the ranchers were not happy with them. These feral cattle are also very aggressive...and I dont care what they are called...their horns dont look short to me! (Today the ranches round them up for sale to the dog food companies.)
I shot a 1200+ pound feral bull on that outing...sounds medium size for cattle..but think about it...it is twice the weight of a good size elk. My hunting notes show I used a Hornady 200 grain round softnose (I always cut a flat on any roundnose for levergun tubes, lead or not) over 40/H335 for approx 2100 fps (top load - be careful). That bullet at a good 125 yards struck him facing away from me in his stringy meat, muscle and lungs, from the left side behind the ribs, angling toward the off shoulder...the angle was sharper than I planned, and it missed the shoulder and exited the right side of his lower neck. It hit no bones going in, and ripped thru about 40 inches of nasty old meat and muscle, part of the shoulder blade (at least thats what I call it) and exited the neck with a 3 inch radial rip and hole. It destroyed much of the lungs...and he ran in a limping fashion for less than 40 or so yards, went down and died in a few minutes.
@ 12:44 am (GMT)
Re: 35 RemingtonReally sorry Gregg but the wild cattle note is bullshit. Yes, you can take down cattle with a .35 but getting it to produce a 3" exit wound out of the neck from a raking shot would be a one in a million sorry. It is possible, but so rare that such a thing should not be advertised as it is the exception. It really annoys me when folk don't test for repeatability. This is typical of what one might read in a gun magazine, then everybody is buying X caliber and expecting to put dinner plate holes in medium game.
If you don't believe me, call Woodleigh, they have been grassing cattle since I was a kid. I have knocked over a good number of cattle myself with the .358 cal over the years and there is no way a budget semi frangible Interlock can do this in a repeatable manner. Even the Hornady ballistics lab folk would be surprised if this were the case.
Speed of killing is also an issue. Further more, I found that many bullets including the Interlock will not penetrate through the round joints and bones of cattle- again something that has to be repeat tested.
The .35 rem is a nice cartridge and has great merit in comparison to the smaller carbine cartridges- but it cannot produce miracles.
Hope that helps offer some balance and perspective.
@ 01:22 am (GMT)
Re: 35 RemingtonBoy Howdy! I like it that you don't mince words. Only reasons this was believable to me was (1) no bones were hit, (2) range was 125 yards, and (3) I don't have the impression Paco is a liar. Did you like the poster art?
The way you are testing and writing is really a benefit to us all. Your take on stuff like this is invaluable. I have always had the impression that moderate velocity (1800 - 2000 fps) can allow inexpensive bullets to perform - especially if they have a large exposed (round or flat) lead tip and shot placement is good. But I never had the impression a 35 rem was a DG rifle.... : )
@ 03:55 pm (GMT)
Re: 35 RemingtonWell, we can use the physics of terminal ballistics to help us.
If the .358" Interlock expanded to 16mm or .630", impacted at low velocity and exited at even lower velocity, the exit wound should be proportionate to the size of the expanded bullet- i.e .630" exit wound.
A 3" exit wound would indicate disproportionate to caliber wounding which can only occur at high velocity. In this instance, the bullet would need to be exiting at around 2400 to 2600fps.
The .358" bore can produce quite wide wounding down to 2200fps, steadily tapering off with a full cut off point at around 1800fps. But it cannot do this after 40" travel through medium.
Ok, so we need an exit velocity of 2400 to 2600fps. The trouble is, the 200gr Interlock has a very low SD and is a very soft bullet, it can only just take a 90- 160lb feral goat tail on- just. To achieve exit wounding on cattle, the SD would need to be up around .600 (500 grains) with a cup and core type conventional bullet at the velocities I am about to suggest. Impact velocity would need to over 3000fps to achieve a high velocity exit.
I'll say it again, it is highly possible that the author achieved the stated result- odd things do occur when hunting. But to state this as an example of the potential of the .35 Remington is misleading.
There is also further potential for misunderstanding. For example, the .358" Interlock bullets are prone to blow back if they meet a great deal of resistance. We have not talked about this in the KB yet as we have not yet discussed the medium bores. When the Interlock gives blow back, entry wounds appear as exit wounds (up to 3" in diameter), after which, the bullet continues to penetrate but having lost a lot of weight on impact (but not full bullet blow up), penetration is simply "fair". When blow back occurs on medium game, killing is very fast- maximum shock transfer. But on large animals, there is room for misinterpretation. An example would be if the animal was quartering on, the bullet struck, blew back, the animal turned and bolted 70 yards, paused, second shot is raking quartering away. Later during carcass inspection, the Interlock cannot be found (try doing cattle autopsies- can take hours). It is then concluded that the first shot missed and that the entry wound is in fact the exit wound. Again, I am not saying that this happened.What I am saying is that based on my extensive field research, there is the possibility for mis-interpretation.
I will admit however, after seeing some of the "behind the scenes" of gun magazine writing and the industry in general, I seen enough to make me very cautious about some of our published information.
I have taken the same shot at the same angle on a 900lb cow with the .45-70 and 400gr Speer. Death was slow, a bit like a bow shot but not as slow as the authors description above regarding the .35 Rem taking minutes to effect a kill. This is pretty much the norm for the .45-70 at mild velocities (no different to using a .458 Win reaching out a bit). I recovered the bullet, it did not exit. Nothing fancy, just a clean but delayed kill.
@ 05:33 pm (GMT)
Re: 35 RemingtonCool. Very cool. There is no substitute for real experience in the field on flesh and bone, or for repetitive testing either.
I doubt that Paco - or anyone else - is "promoting" the 35 rem. For one thing, it doesn't need it, having established it's own small but durable niche a long time ago. For another it is the complete opposite of the current fad for ultra high velocity along with ultra-hyper promotional tactics. We do not need ultra short magnums by both winchester and remington, we do not need 26 Noslers either, what is needed is better knowledge (as you are providing here and in your books), better bullets, and better hunters with a realistic and humane approach to the sport. There is no free lunch and every approach entails compromises that form the whole package.
Hope you enjoyed the hyper-promotional, misleading poster : ) and the site on the Remington "Great Eight" (used on Bonnie and Clyde). John Browning was a genius and all of our progress is built on the shoulders of those who went before. What has worked for 100 years or more is worthy of note. In this regard the 30-30 and the 35 rem may have hidden virtues compared to more modern whiz-bang cartridges. Barrel life, avoiding damage to meat or bloodshot meat, easy to shoot for the average man.
@ 09:20 pm (GMT)
Re: 35 RemingtonAll very true.
I had a good look at the link thanks, it really is a well presented and very helpful site. It is great when folk decide to dedicate themselves to a particular rifle or cartridge and explore every aspect in detail.