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> Deciding on 1 best all round rifle for NZ
Deciding on 1 best all round rifle for NZ
@ 06:58 am (GMT) |
DavidGetting back into bigger game hunting in NZ.. Mainly focused on central Nth Island in NZ, with some trips into Sth Island. Tossing up between 7mm Remington Magnum , 30-06, 270 and 308. Main targets deer - Sika + Reds most of time ..couple times a year some Thar , chamois and Wapiti. Any feedback appreciated. |
Replies
@ 03:09 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Deciding on 1 best all round rifle for NZHi David, I saw this post in the blog section, thanks for re-posting here. Sorry for the late reply, it has been a busy week.One of the issues you are going to face when starting out is recoil. Many modern rifles are built extremely light and take a good deal of practice to master. Felt recoil is normally fine- it is the effect on accuracy that is of concern. You have narrowed down your cartridge choice to a handful of wonderful cartridges, any of which would serve you well. I am sure that other posters will agree that the .270Win is a good cartridge from the standpoint of plenty of power but without excessive recoil so that you can learn to shoot center fire with great accuracy. My only concern is that some of the typical off the shelf 130gr frangible loads we have in NZ aren't that well designed for NZ hunting due to limited penetration at closer ranges if encountering larger animals. I am a huge fan of the .270 but I prefer to have access to hand loads or some of the less common 150gr factory loads which you may have to order (gun store contacts importer). Nevertheless, there are scores of NZ hunters using nothing more than Remington's budget 130gr Corelokt ammo which has a mild muzzle velocity aiding penetration when bush hunting large bodied Red stags. Ironically, Hornady now produce a .308 165gr SST load that is more potent than some of our common .270 Win Loads. If you are not going to hand load, the .308 has great merit for both bush hunting and tops work. Most folk tend to think that the .270 has a flatter trajectory than the .308 but when comparing commonly available off the shelf ammo and true velocities rather than advertised velocities, the differences are very small. For a non hand loader, the .308 has great merit. This is an excellent first step cartridge and if you later find that you want more power and reach, you can move onto a more potent cartridge but- keep your .308 as this will always serve you as an extremely reliable hack. The .30-06 and 7mm Rem mag are two more outstanding cartridges but as I suggested at the beginning of this post, they can be a handful if you are starting out due to the nature of current rifles. Both have great merit for South Island work. We have been discussing the .30-06 in a mountain rifle post if you want to have a look at that. Not a great many NZer's use the .30-06 anymore but it is an excellent cartridge. The 7mm Rem Mag is the most common chambering I see on my bench for long range work, great reach and tolerable recoil in suitable platforms. Any one of the cartridges you mentioned will serve you well. It really comes down to how far you want to shoot and game body weights. The .270 is a bit light for Wapiti with typical factory loads. The same limited penetration can also occur on Thar- again I would prefer to hand load the .270 Win for all around work. Just remember that this is not a one shot deal- you can change rifles later on or if funds allow, buy a second rifle at a later time. So there is nothing to stop you from starting with one of the milder options you have suggested which are still very potent. When I am teaching long range shooting or hunting to new clients, we use a .308 Winchester, the client learns to shoot out to ranges of around 650 yards. Now I am not suggesting that you jump into long range work as this tends to be info overload in the beginning, plus it tends to create shooters rather than hunters as opposed to learning long range at a later stage. The point is, you don't need to start out with a huge cartridge to achieve excellent results. I don't know if that helps or whether I have added your confusion. Whatever you do, take time to enjoy the process. |
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@ 04:24 pm (GMT) |
David LaingRe: Deciding on 1 best all round rifle for NZMorning Nathan,Thanks for the reply. I will a good think about it over the next few days..yet think I will probably go with the .308 and use the 165 grain SST's in bush and tops work. The 7mm Remington Magnum keeps coming into back of my mind too..is kinda tempting..yet I wonder if the recoil maybe a killer. I am thinking a browning X bolt as the rifle to start with. On another point, I was told a suppressor works well for reducing recoil, thus letting you go on to bigger cartridges with reduced recoil..is this true or mainly only applicable in lower cartridges? I also wonder if it reduces velocity or really reduces noise much in bigger cartridges. I think once I get back into this, I will likely expand in handloading too later on..seems the way to go if plan on doing lots of shooting. Regards David |
@ 06:08 pm (GMT) |
Bob MavinRe: Deciding on 1 best all round rifle for NZHi DavidMy 2 bob’s worth. 308 is a good calibre, do most jobs with 2 diff loads. I wouldn’t use a suppressor as the recoil is no problem especially with a decent recoil pad. Maybe go to a local range, I’m sure someone will give you a shot out of a 308W and remember you’ll feel the recoil a lot more over the bench than in the field. I noticed in another post you mentioned 44 mag for close bush work on pigs etc, I’d just use a 308 for the lot close & long range hunting, spend a bit more on one rifle. As for rifle brand give it a lot of thought maybe pay a bit extra. if you make the right choice you’ll be happy and you will hand it down to your kids. Nathan’s first book is worth reading before choosing a rifle. He’s second book is worth reading too. Bob |
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@ 06:21 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Deciding on 1 best all round rifle for NZThanks Bob, beat me too it.Please don't add more cartridges to the mix. Bob's advice was very sound. I don't like to push a sale but Bob is correct about reading the first book before buying your rifle and fitting a suppressor. The first book deals with rifle brands and accuracy issues etc. It is a buyer beware and will help save you money in the long run. The long range aspect is just an extension of this. I you go to the shopping page (ebook and paperback), you will see a job that went horribly wrong in the short video. Baby steps. Be careful when seeking advice from the university of what "old such and such reckons" as well being very cautious with hyped up gun magazines. |
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@ 09:11 pm (GMT) |
David LaingRe: Deciding on 1 best all round rifle for NZHi Bob and Nathan,Thanks both for your input. I am sold on the 308.I am guessing suppressor reduces velocity a fair bit correct? I heard it reduces the recoil , but main saving is sound..Honestly what are your views on that? I am ordering books too, as I can see from this website that they will be well worth it. All in all its the best site I have found online and its great its run by a Kiwi too! Regards David |
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@ 11:10 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Deciding on 1 best all round rifle for NZHi David, you will find that a suppressor can have a tendency to increase velocities just a touch by holding a small degree of pressure.Really hope you enjoy the books and sorry to have pushed a sale. |
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@ 01:23 am (GMT) |
Bob MavinRe: Deciding on 1 best all round rifle for NZG’day DavidI agree with you on this being a good site! Nathans books are a wealth of knowledge and a very good reference. I’ve had suppressors in the past, but they’re not for me. There’s heaps of good calibres, but a 20”-22” barrelled 308W bolt action rifle is a good compromise, not perfect for everything but as good as any calibre for normal hunting up to Elk size game. I think just about all gun shops would carry 308W factory ammo. As Nathan said, “the barrel is disposable” give it some thought, a good action and stock is a wise investment. A lot of guys spend money on a few Inferior rifles and end up spending more than the cost of a custom build. I’m not up with modern rifle brands, my old tricked up L579 Sako in a McMillan stock, 22” Maddco barrel is one of my favourite rifles. Good luck with it Bob |
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@ 05:24 am (GMT) |
David LaingRe: Deciding on 1 best all round rifle for NZHi Bob,Thanks. I have started thinking a fair bit abit the long range stuff since visiting this site. The research Nathan has doing is pretty amazing , as are his videos on youtube too. I was sold on getting a Browning X bolt..which is supposed to shot under 1 inch groups out of the box. It seems alot of mass produced brands really are not designed to shot that accurately. I think will still go for this...However after reading all this online info..I am wondering if makes sense to start off on a custom rifle...especially as the longer range shooting seems more attractive if can be mastered A friend recommended a US group called Eberlestock.com which has great base stocks as well as good reputation for top line hunting and tactical packs Eberlestock rifle stock can be folded, is adjustable and just needs a action and barrel fixed..it could be a good project to do with Nathan and end up with a great rifle at the end of the day...if have enough coin to make it all happen. Food for thought! |
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@ 02:49 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Deciding on 1 best all round rifle for NZWalk first, then run. |
@ 03:40 am (GMT) |
Chris McKoyRe: Deciding on 1 best all round rifle for NZHi David, I just thought I'd add my 2 cents as I've just been through the same sort of decision making process in the last few months although people here have far far more experience than me...My first thought was to buy a long range shooter, so I watched a few of Nathans videos and listened to a few mates and ended up with a 7mm rem mag. Not to promote any one brand, but I sent this off for a Hardy suppressor before even shooting it, In the mean time I purchased a rem 7mm08 ADL for a bush gun. I ended up sighting them in at the same time and found the rem mag to be a joy to shoot, having about 1/3 the recoil of the 7mm08. I have since sold this gun but realized that I need both a long range rig, and a short range lighter weight variant (now a 308 SPS tactical, again, suppressed). With my limited experience and only a humble opinion, I would suggest a 7mm rem mag Sendero. |
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@ 03:45 am (GMT) |
Chris McKoyRe: Deciding on 1 best all round rifle for NZSorry I have to add... and Sherpa to carry it. |
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@ 06:53 am (GMT) |
David LaingRe: Deciding on 1 best all round rifle for NZHi Chris,Thanks for the input. Its good to hear your input without any assumptions. I came to 30-06 or 7mmMag or 308 because of bullet performance. Recoil was not the leading factor. I was sold on 308..but I had in past done a lot of small game shooting and with larger calibres mainly on targets..so was interested in the 30-06 or 7mmMag because it seemed to be superior on bullet options and velocity too. I looked at 7mm08 and 270 too and used a mates a few times , but felt if 270 may as well go 7mmMag or 30-06...as more bullet options / same recoil level anyhow. On 7mm08..I found cartridge was smaller, still seemed to have decent recoil due to lighter rifles I guess..and felt lacked heavier bullet options or power if after bigger game at longer shots, although a few mates swear by them..although they shoot below 50ms 95% of times and 95% Sika ....which are much smaller in size to typical reds. It was hard to get any feedback on real effectiveness of a Supressor and its good to hear a real experience. I saw in UK and elsewhere overseas they are often used by law on game parks or hunting grounds ...even on shotguns due to reduced noise..so they must make some noticeable difference In NZ I have a few mates whom all reckon they make a big difference, but subject to quality of course. It seems the real point is reduced noise on long distance shots so can hunt more if do miss or get one and still want to hunt more... and reduced recoil making it just more easy when using a larger magnums if right quality suppressor. I am still thinking about 7mmMag and a good chance its going to be that or 30-06,as i still like idea of more power and better bullet options. Thanks and Regards David |
@ 06:02 pm (GMT) |
Martin TaylorRe: Deciding on 1 best all round rifle for NZHi David,I own both 308's and a 30-06 which are used mainly for sambar hunting and for the very small recoil increase the 30-06 is the cartridge l would take everytime! Both have great factory loads avalible but the 06 reaches out with that extra punch and l'm told the suppressor will decrease the recoil anyway! (not allowed over here in OZ) The 308 is a great cal but for all round use the 30-06 has it covered. My sons Tikka 308 will be changed to a 30-06AI when he is ready, oh and dont right off the Tikka's in your rifle selection. Cheers Marty |
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@ 07:03 pm (GMT) |
David LaingRe: Deciding on 1 best all round rifle for NZHi Marty,Thanks for the info. After careful consideration of all factors, does not seem to be much reasoning to not get a 30-06 or 7mmRem.Mag or even 308 I guess too. The last choice I have to make is rifle choice..Every gunshop from Auckland to Taupo has told me Browning is the best off the shelf with Sako a close second. Its hard to know , as I got some different feedback from Nathan After analysing all the "bs" out there and the sensible stuff off the site here..The reality is that it seems the best real approach is get one that can be accurized to guarantee the performance..so getting a stock, action that can be later accurized seems to be the real key to supreme accuracy. I am finally ordering the 2 books sold here today..will decide the final choice after the read. Any gus, anyone recommends to avoid ..I welcome any views. Cheers David |
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@ 07:05 pm (GMT) |
David LaingRe: Deciding on 1 best all round rifle for NZLast line of last post should read "Any Guns anyone recommends to avoid ..I welcome any views" |
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@ 08:43 pm (GMT) |
Martin TaylorRe: Deciding on 1 best all round rifle for NZBe carefull with the gun shops recommendations, l have been lead up the path many times! As Bob said sometimes its better to spend a little more!I have a Howa, Marlin, Tikka & 700 Remingtons and all now shoot very well after working them with Nathans & Stephs guidence and techniques. It's impossible to know "what you like", the weight you want to carry, barrel length, synthetic stock, stock style, etc, etc. The 2 off the shelf affordable multi role brands l would stir you towards are; 1st Tikka T3, because it will work straight out of the box and get you out hunting quickly. They only improve with accurising later on (but a little tricky to do), A1 machining, good barrels & triggers that work without fuss. 2nd the 700 Remingtons which are normally 'dimonds in the ruff' that respond well with tunning, easy to bed but need a bit more work with barrels & triggers . The options for after market stocks etc, are almost endless! When you have read Nathans books you will see what l mean, his advice is spot on & no BS! |
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@ 04:10 am (GMT) |
Chris McKoyRe: Deciding on 1 best all round rifle for NZSounds like you are doing your homework Martin, good stuff!I have gone Remington 700 (and have 3 now) simply because of parts available and support within the shooting community, they may be a hit and miss purchase, however the wealth of knowledge on improving performance swayed me. |
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@ 04:19 am (GMT) |
Chris McKoyRe: Deciding on 1 best all round rifle for NZAnd sorry "David" - kinda wishing there was an edit function... |
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@ 07:44 am (GMT) |
David LaingRe: Deciding on 1 best all round rifle for NZHi Chris,Not quite sure what your last email mean't..however thanks for the input anyhow |
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@ 07:59 am (GMT) |
David LaingRe: Deciding on 1 best all round rifle for NZHi Nathan,Started on ebooks..look forward to paperbacks soon..These books are damn good. Best investment I could ever have done since started shooting. Answered all my questions ...and still learning and answering alot more too..and I am only part way through! Without any any prejudice highly recommend to anyone serious about shooting / hunting Cheers David |
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@ 05:05 pm (GMT) |
Martin TaylorRe: Deciding on 1 best all round rifle for NZNot homework Chris! All trial and era with many $ wasted on gunshops advice!The Remingtons will tune up and as you said the amount of support for the brand is the largest by far! I am accurising a 308 Police as we speak as a trainning rig or "Hack" as Nathan calls it! It's now bedded, the trigger needs some more work and most likely replacement which is very normal and adds around $300+ to the build. Lugs will need lapping and if new, it would most likely have needed bore polishing (lapping) as well. All things to consider, but very dependant on the level of accuracy you are chasing! The Tikka's generally only need bedding, forend stiffen & trigger weight adjustment and your away with a reliable sub moa rifle, all though they do work well staight out of the box. I think a great place to start out, a dual pupose carry/climbing Rifle that can reach out. |
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@ 03:54 am (GMT) |
Chris McKoyRe: Deciding on 1 best all round rifle for NZSorry I should have been more clear, I said Martin instead of David in my previous post. |
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@ 07:51 am (GMT) |
David LaingRe: Deciding on 1 best all round rifle for NZHi Chris and Martin,Thanks for all the input. The Remington seems a great choice based on intial reading + both of your inputs. I have kinda gone off Browning after learning they are hard to handle later down teh track. The key seems to be accurizing eventually if you really start to enjoy putting in the time shooting.It is great to get all the input. Much appreciated and thanks for the kind help. Cheers David |
@ 10:27 pm (GMT) |
GREGG FOSSERe: Deciding on 1 best all round rifle for NZIf you end up with a suppressor, hearing protection must still be worn. A good suppressor will mute the blast/concussion of the cartridge but cannot have any impact on the crack of a supersonic bullet. Only if shooting subsonic (below 1100 fps or so) suppressed, can you go without ear protection.Check ammunition availability and cost before making your final cartridge selection. Nathan's suggestion for 308 because the availability of the 165gr SST bullet is a good one. It is the bullet that does the killing. If you are serious about a suppressor a short action 20" 308 will be much handier (length and weight) than a long action 30-06/7mm with 24" bbl. A suppressor adds 6" or so to the end of the barrel and some weight as well. |
@ 10:38 pm (GMT) |
jason brownRe: Deciding on 1 best all round rifle for NZa bit off topic but.... yesterday I seen a brand new suppressor get used for the very first shot. it was suppose to be able to handle 76 grains of powder it was a 7mm Dakota, it got blown off and hit the 25 meter target boards. it didn't make a new hole or clip the sides, it must of just pulled off at the threads. the guy was trying to get the crap out of his eyes.so just be careful with your suppressors. |
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