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> Whitetail and Black Bear - Fast Killing Monolithics
Whitetail and Black Bear - Fast Killing Monolithics
@ 01:25 pm (GMT) |
Ryan CameronHello everyone. I've read Mr.Foster's book bundles and article about effective game killing and I've been choosing reloading components to give the fastest kill I can on a game animal, mainly whitetails and black bear. I have a Savage Impulse Predator in .308" 20" barrel 1:10 win and a Zastava M70 mauser in 9.3x62mm 22" barrel 1:14 twist. I'd like to hear some other opinions regarding fast killing with these rifles using monolithic bullets. I typically hunt with the Oryx in the 9.3 and use Partitions or SST's in the 308 for hunting but would like to explore the monolithic bullets out of curiosity. This is the buck last fall with the 286gr .366" Barnes TSX. I never recovered the bullet. The entry wound came in behind the left shoulder, and out just in front of the right in the neck as you can see. The buck's legs tucked up before it even hit the ground, I've never seen such a thing before with lead core bullets. I believe this is the hydrostatic shock?, but I had expected more tissue damage on the exit. My concern is that as Mr.Foster has said in his work, the monolithics do not expand sufficiently at slower velocities. I wonder if this particular TSX did not expand as much as I would have liked, and if it didn't, why did it kill so fast over my traditional lead bullets? 
130gr .308" Barnes TTSX @ 2950 ft/s w 44.5gr H335 expanded to 0.604" 
250gr .366"Nosler E-Tip @ 2400 fp/s w 56gr IMR4064 expanded to 0.769" 
I also tried the 286gr Hornady soft points but the ones I recovered varied so much in diameter, I decided to keep those bullets for pinking or something. 
Would the 9.3 E-Tip provide 'better' fast killing than this particular 308 load? Assuming impact velocity required for the 308 is over 2200 ft/s and the 9.3 is over 1800 ft/s. Any thoughts or suggestions are greatly appreciated. Thanks you. |
Replies
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@ 02:19 pm (GMT) |
Ryan CameronRe: Whitetail and Black Bear - Fast Killing MonolithicsSorry desktop users, those photos are annoyingly huge, should have resized them before posting. I'm going to copy and past with Imgur links instead.Hello everyone. I've read Mr.Foster's book bundles and article about effective game killing and I've been choosing reloading components to give the fastest kill I can on a game animal, mainly whitetails and black bear. I have a Savage Impulse Predator in .308" 20" barrel 1:10 win and a Zastava M70 mauser in 9.3x62mm 22" barrel 1:14 twist. I'd like to hear some other opinions regarding fast killing with these rifles using monolithic bullets. I typically hunt with the Oryx in the 9.3 and use Partitions or SST's in the 308 for hunting but would like to explore the monolithic bullets out of curiosity. This is the buck last fall with the 286gr .366" Barnes TSX. I never recovered the bullet. The entry wound came in behind the left shoulder, and out just in front of the right in the neck as you can see. The buck's legs tucked up before it even hit the ground, I've never seen such a thing before with lead core bullets. I believe this is the hydrostatic shock?, but I had expected more tissue damage on the exit. My concern is that as Mr.Foster has said in his work, the monolithics do not expand sufficiently at slower velocities. I wonder if this particular TSX did not expand as much as I would have liked, and if it didn't, why did it kill so fast over my traditional lead bullets? https://imgur.com/wbIcRwt 130gr .308" Barnes TTSX @ 2950 ft/s w 44.5gr H335 expanded to 0.604" https://i.imgur.com/cAfho5c.jpeg 250gr .366"Nosler E-Tip @ 2400 fp/s w 56gr IMR4064 expanded to 0.769" https://i.imgur.com/uTGT3tV.jpeg I also tried the 286gr Hornady soft points but the ones I recovered varied so much in diameter, I decided to keep those bullets for pinking or something. https://i.imgur.com/6HWD2tL.jpeg Would the 9.3 E-Tip provide 'better' fast killing than this particular 308 load? Assuming impact velocity required for the 308 is over 2200 ft/s and the 9.3 is over 1800 ft/s. Any thoughts or suggestions are greatly appreciated. Thanks you. |
@ 05:58 pm (GMT) |
Magnus VassbotnRe: Whitetail and Black Bear - Fast Killing MonolithicsHi RyanJudging by that exit wound the bullet nust have passed just under spine, almost touching. That will explain why the deer dropped in its tracks, despite little tissue damage. If the bullet is close enough to the spine, even an FMJ (RN) or a hard cast will drop an animal in its tracks. And if there is just enough lung damage, it'll bleed out before it gets back up. In my 9,3x62 I tested some locally made 210 grain monos with drive bands. Got close to 2900 fps from a 24" barrel. Just tested them on paper though, but if I were to use monos for deer in that rifle, it would be bullets in the 200 +/- grain range, out to about 200 meters. I'd look for something like that. I've shot a lot of african plains game with light for caliber GS Customs in various calibers, and at moderate ranges killing time is fine and reliable. I've shot quite a bit of animals with a 130 grain from a 308 at around 3050-3100 fps (I believe), and it worked well on the typical medium sized game. Maybe that Barnes 130 will be similar. But generally with these bullets, killing time is as I say "fine", meaning the animals generally drop somewhere between 20-50 meters with center shoulder shots. Rarely have I seen them drop in their tracks unless spine or close to spine is involved. So fast killing is not what I would point out as a stand out trait. Cheers |
@ 11:53 pm (GMT) |
Anders ÖsterbergRe: Whitetail and Black Bear - Fast Killing MonolithicsMost copper bullets want 2000+ f/s to reliable expand !Look in a ballistic chart where your bullet hit that threshold , don't shoot further ! , that's the simple rule . Most control expanding lead bullets i not far behind in velocity. If you want to shoot at longer ranges så get a fast expanding lead bullet like Hornady ELD-match or similar, they expand down to 1500 and shed some lead chunks to help up the effekt. This guy test a lot of bullets in slow speed , it's very interesting to see that many bullets are not expand as low as one might think.... https://youtube.com/channel/UCnZOpW91G1pIRrX6Ifg8_DQ I have shot a lot of animals as Moose and deer with TTSX-TSX and they have expanded good and killed with strong reliability, but hav rearly shot over 200meters and never beyond 300m |
@ 09:02 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Whitetail and Black Bear - Fast Killing MonolithicsI agree with Magnus that a spine shot will drop an animal in its tracks. However, Ryan’s shot entered behind the left shoulder, and exited ahead of the right shoulder. It was a perfect chest shot. |
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@ 10:59 am (GMT) |
Magnus VassbotnRe: Whitetail and Black Bear - Fast Killing MonolithicsIt looks like a the exit is right below where the spine dips down in the neck/ chest junction, so that's why I guess a spine shock was involved here. But yes, a perfect shot for that angle (high, quartering away I recon). |
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@ 05:00 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Whitetail and Black Bear - Fast Killing MonolithicsThere is a pronounced J shape to the spine, as Magnus says. Some anatomical drawings show it more pronounced than others. They’re certainly worth studying if you’re going to use a stout, non-fragmenting bullet, especially in heavy cover or precipitous terrain. |
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@ 06:30 am (GMT) |
Ryan CameronRe: Whitetail and Black Bear - Fast Killing MonolithicsThank you everyone for the replies. Yes I was aiming for a chest shot but the entry was a bit higher than the exit as I was shooting down a slight slope so the bullet passing under the spine must have been the cause.Good point Anders, this weekend I'm at the bear stand and don't plan in shooting past 60 yards with the 9.3 with the Nosler E-Tip. I took a look at the brass and found some pressure signs. Hornaday cases, brand new, not resized. Looks like the beginning of case head separation. Chamber was clean of oil or water as well. I've never seen this before either. Maybe the longer bullet and single cannelure ups the initial pressures. https://imgur.com/a/mSwvfnk This is with the 56 gr loads at 2380 ft/s I think I'll keep it at 54gr IMR4895 as GRT suggests for OBT. That gives average 2307 ft/s which still expanded to 0.769" at 100 yards. So that's reassuring. I've been learning about bear anatomy as well just for this purpose. Also good points Scott, the area I'm hunting is very dense and rough, which is why I want a fast kill to prevent the animal from running into a patch of muskeg or steep muddy ravine. My biggest concern is not being able to get an ATV in there to get the animal out. It's a hot spot but overlooked by so many hunters. Worst case scenario is quartering into hanging meat bags. Thank you all for the ideas and good hunting! |
@ 07:55 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Whitetail and Black Bear - Fast Killing MonolithicsHi Ryan, it looks like Magnum has answered this for you. Its good to see everyone working together like this.Please note, while I have said that mono bullets struggle to expand at low velocities, I have also explained clearly that problems may still be evident - even if the bullets do continue to expand at low velocities. Observing similar posts in recent months, I am concerned that some of you may be forgoing your own good judgement and integrity, allowing yourselves to be disempowered through compliance to flawed science and clever marketing - or out of a fear of law changes. Some seem almost eager for disempowerment. Your worth, your honor and integrity should never be so easily bought or traded. It is perhaps an honorable thing, to want to believe that these companies have your best interests at heart, that such bullets might produce performance every bit as good or better than a lead core bullet - but its just not so. Information now comes so thick and fast that we do not give ourselves time to process and digest what we see. It is important to step out of this and to put time into real world observation, testing this against internet information. As a general rule, not taking any brands into consideration - if you want a mono bullet to kill fast, select a projectile that can be driven fast. Do not use the bullet below an impact velocity of 2600fps if the expectation is of an on the spot or near on the spot kill. An impact velocity of 2400fps will often result in a short to medium length dead run. Expect slow kills from 2200fps and below. Shot placement will of course effect results with CNS shots producing instant kills. You can observe all of these factors for yourself, in the field. Take the information here and compare it to what you see. Recent email (edited): Hello Nathan, You might know what you’re talking about! Yesterday a friend who is having hog damage on his property asked me to shoot a couple of pigs that were too far for him. This was more rushed than my usual approach but he wants them shot now. I decided to bring the new Tikka .300WM with Hammer bullets. Nice morning with 3-5 wind and I was able to get a great prone with sandbags setup on the roof of one of his equipment buildings well before they moved into the field. I hit two behind the shoulder at 275 yrds (1 was perfect front lung and the other was about 2” back from perfect). They dropped with a few leg twitches. The lungs were jelly. However, when I shot two at 412 and then 427 (both shots just below 2200fps), the results were not as good. One pig ran at least 500 yards and died. the other ran about 100 yards but actually came closer and stopped then was able to get a a second shot. The second shot was in the ear due to an fence post in the way of the lungs. We found 1 petal (we think) wound in the lung. The other pig was hit in both lungs with a couple “petal” wounds - it just ran like hell for over a minute (we think). The hammers do not have the velocity to make a clean kill past 300! Who told me that? It was just like you said would happen at 2200fps. You might be a kiwi but you know your stuff! |
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@ 08:57 am (GMT) |
Steph FosterRe: Whitetail and Black Bear - Fast Killing MonolithicsI wonder if there is another facet of the copper bullet subject that hunters might like to consider.Maybe hunters need to start asking the question: Is copper an infinite resource? It seems that copper is an extremely versatile metal, in fact I believe it is a crucial component of our technology. I don't think your phones, electric cars, electric bicycles, bluetooth toasters, washing machines, coffee makers, etc. etc. etc. will work all that well without copper. Of course lead is also finite, but its not quite as versatile. Let's say hypothetically, that in two years time, all lead projectiles are banned and all that we have left is copper. The demand for copper is now doubled? quadrupled? Millions of hunters world wide are throwing big chunks of copper down the gurgler - sure some of them might end up with an animal or two to show for it but lets face it, by the time you take load experimentation, issues with twist rates and all of that into account there is a lot of 'wastage'. In the meantime, due to a massively increased demand, copper is suddenly a precious metal. What then? If the powers that be suddenly decide that the demand for copper is now far exceeding its quantities and that some sacrifices have to be made - WHO DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO HAVE TO MAKE THEM? Hmmm let me see, hunters throwing big chunks of copper pointlessly around forests? Or will it be the latte drinking, electric car driving, phone addicted, gadget loving drones of society? PS. I think you will currently find that wind farms are killing more birds than lead toxicity. |
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@ 10:06 am (GMT) |
Steph FosterRe: Whitetail and Black Bear - Fast Killing MonolithicsPSS: If only we had a way to deduce the truth behind the lead toxicity argument. If only we could use some example from our past to discover the truth about lead bullets and their affects on our environment. If only there was some place that had suffered from the dumping of tons of lead ordnance. If only we could see the affects, many many years later, of massive amounts of lead dumped into an environment .Oh wait. I think I'm talking about Europe. 1803 - 1815 (Napoleonic War), 1853-1856 (Crimean war), 1914 - 1918 (WW1), 1939-1945 (WW2). |
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@ 11:06 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Whitetail and Black Bear - Fast Killing MonolithicsIn the research for my recent post, “Copper madness,” I learned that the lead used by bullet manufacturers in the US is recycled, salvaged material - from car batteries, old water pipes, etc. Lead mining is a thing of the past. If it’s true that shooting enthusiasts are pumping tons of lead into the environment, and it can’t be recycled from ranges, then the cost of lead will eventually exceed that of copper. For now, copper bullets are more expensive than lead bullets. My question was, Why the recent fascination of hunters with copper bullets? In the UK and Scotland, it’s legal to sell wild game meat, but the people who buy it won’t take game killed with lead. In the US, it’s not legal to sell wild game. So the US hunters using copper bullets are either afraid they’ll consume lead in their game, or have bought into the marketing hype touting the supposed superior performance of copper bullets. |
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@ 10:04 am (GMT) |
Ryan CameronRe: Whitetail and Black Bear - Fast Killing MonolithicsThank you for the replies everyone, I appreciate the participation. I just returned from the bear stand and I did more fishing than hunting. It's been dry, hot, and barely any wind. I think i'll stay away until we get a good downpour to help disperse the scent.Quote: If you want a mono bullet to kill fast, select a projectile that can be driven fast.
Thank you for the clarification Mr.Foster. Considering the hardness of the common copper alloys used, this makes complete sense. Based on the input i'll be using the 130gr as it's the fastest I can send a projectile out of any of my firearms and it expands wide enough to help tracking if need be. I have yet to find any premium traditional hunting bullets available like accubonds or terminal ascents. Reloading components and factory loads alike are out of stock everywhere in my province. The only projectiles readily available are monos and cheap plinking bullets. My interest in monos is more of curiosity and partial necessity than supposition. You'd assume that living next door to the world's largest bullet factory would make getting components something convenient, ITAR makes it quite a desolate place. Regarding Mrs.Foster's reply, be assured that I have no qualms with sending lead cores out the muzzle. By trade I work with chemicals that are, if not endocrine disrupting, some form of neurotoxin. Ingesting lead particles in game meat a few times a year is generally far less damaging to the body than inhaling a steady dose of lead particles over a extended period of time. Both will increase blood lead levels but not all ingested particles will be absorbed into the body, whereas inhalation of lead particles will entirely be absorbed into the body. The only concern that I believe is reasonable with the argument against lead cores is contaminated gut piles fed on by raptors and vultures. I have buried gut piles to avoid poisoning vultures and to not attract coyotes to the mast timbers where I hunt. Though, who really knows if my efforts are worth it. I also learned a year ago that the provincial testing of tap water lead testing requires all household taps to remain open for 5 minutes before testing. This pours the water held in the household pipes down the drain and only tests the municipal supply. Knowing this, It could be reasonable to consider that people with increased BLLs is from household plumbing rather than from bullet fragment ingestion. However, we'll likely see no articles about that as it doesn't have the click bait factor that hunters and evil lead bullets have. |
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@ 06:37 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Whitetail and Black Bear - Fast Killing MonolithicsRyan, there’s a California hunter with a YouTube channel called Desert Dog Outdoors. He’s not a professional gun writer. He’s a small business owner with enough time and money to hunt in Africa, as well as California and other places in North America. He likes the Barnes LRX when he’s forced to use bullets on California’s approved list. He doesn’t take shots past 400 yards, although he competes in extreme long range events. He doesn’t mention bear, but says he prefers shoulder shots on hogs and deer. He uses lead bullets outside of California, however, which is telling. He’ll respond if you email him. He might hunt bear. They’ve got them in California. His email address is [email protected] |
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