|
|
|
Discussion Forums
Forum Index
> Rifles general discussion
> Copper madness
Copper madness
@ 10:16 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifWhat is fueling hunters’ obsession with copper bullets? The craze seems to have started with California’s prohibition of lead bullets to protect condors. No other US state has followed suit, although there have been efforts in Maine, New York, and Minnesota . . . all of which failed. It seems Germany, Denmark, Sweden, and Scotland have recently banned lead bullets, too. I’m curious what, if any, avian scavengers those countries worship like Californians worship the condor. Or is it public-health, fear-mongering propaganda? What percentage of any country’s population consumes wild game slain with lead bullets? I’ve read that non-stick coating on cookware is carcinogenic, and, like lead, doesn’t dissipate from the human body . . . yet no country is banning non-stick skillets. |
Replies
@ 11:03 am (GMT) |
Daniel SchindlerRe: Copper madnessScott,Your accounting on the subject is, IMO, correct. While I have suspicions and speculations, I regret not having any real facts for you on what's behind this craziness...and that's what it is. Remembering the 3 evils...sex, power and money...I believe this is rooted in the latter. Hopefully, someone will chime in on your very good question. I'll watch this thread with you. Good topic Scott. Cheers. Dan |
@ 02:01 am (GMT) |
Lane SalvatoRe: Copper madnessThey say fools rush in where angels fear to tread. Well, here I am. There are probably many reasons for this, not the least of which is the idea that copper bullets actually work well due to very successful marketing videos showing ballistic gel tests. On a YouTube video these are subjective at best but it doesn't matter. They get a lot of views.I believe that there are also a large number of people who follow blogs, join groups, and subscribe to channels where the idea of the need for copper gets perpetuated. These guys don't actually hunt though. They comment, they may go to the range, may even reload but they don't put on a pack and go sweat it out in Texas or freeze their butts of in Maine, or hike over mountains in Colorado. They just read, and post, and order ammo. This can be self perpetuating. There are probably also hunters who legitimately believe that they need to use copper to avoid contaminating meat or offal with lead. This could be from bad information they got from the whole California Condor "study" or it could be from marketing efforts from specific manufacturers. If these guys are using a 30-06 with a 180 grain bullet on a deer at 100 to 150 yards they are probably having success. So they don't get it when long range people get so frustrated with the talk of lead bans, copper bullets that will work at 800 yards out of a 223, etc. There is another reason and it is that if lead is not an option it takes a lot of technology and expense to come up with a bullet that really works well but does not contain lead. Those projectiles are not cheap, they are difficult to manufacture when compared to cup and core bullets, and the large bullet manufacturers just haven't gone that way. They've gone the "Green Tip" and "E-Tip" route. So either they've taken the path of least resistance or they are just virtue signaling. The only really effective lead free bullet out there that I know of comes from DRT and for whatever reason they have been accepted like the proverbial Lady of the Night in church. The biggest frustration I have with the whole mess is that I believe that the need to do away with lead is based on a false premise that lead does anything to create toxicity issues when used on big game out of a rifle. There has been no serious scientific research on this topic. There has been some dubious research on one species of bird in California that is literally born looking for a place to die and it didn't take into account lead from other sources that is in close proximity to these birds. It is then assumed by a lot of people that lead must be banned and that's just that. You repeat a lie often enough it becomes accepted as truth. Politicians will take advantage of this, and the evidence in the countries that Scott named shows that they have. |
|
@ 04:54 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Copper madnessBarnes launched its X-Bullet in 1989, before lead-poisoning of Condors was an issue. Their marketing strategy was “28% better penetration” (compared to the Partition and Core-Lokt, I assume). Remington bought Barnes in 2010. The California lead-bullet ban didn’t take effect until 2019. What a godsend for Barnes! Free advertising. In the meantime, the other big manufacturers, Federal, Hornady, Nosler, and Winchester developed copper bullets, to compete with Barnes. The problem? Convincing the average hunter to pay more for a product that’s only required in a finite market, California. Sierra bought Barnes in the Remington bankruptcy auction in 2020, hoping to coattail on the copper craze. But now it’s up to the big guys to buy the hearts of hunters by convincing them that “the deadliest mushroom in the woods” is no longer the Core-Lokt, but rather the Trophy Copper, GMX, E-Tip, or Copper Impact. |
|
@ 12:48 pm (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Copper madnessEight years ago, California began a program to reestablish condors in Northern California. Anticipating that some of those birds might make their way into Oregon, which was part of the condors’ historical range, the state commissioned Oregon State University to conduct a survey of hunters and the general public about a possible lead bullet ban. The Department of Fish and Wildlife gets 40% of its funding from license fees and taxes on guns, ammo, and fishing tackle. 27% of hunters said they would quit or reduce hunting if lead bullets were banned, but the survey didn’t say if cost, or effectiveness, of non-lead bullets was the issue. Nothing ever came of it - there’s no push in Oregon to ban lead.https://www.dfw.state.or.us/wildlife/lead/ODFW_Final_General_Summary_27_Jan_16.pdf It looks to me like copper bullets are a product in search of a market. Numerous boutique bullet-makers have sprung up, hoping to capitalize on a market that didn’t fully materialize. Hammer Bullets is 2 guys and a lathe. DRT never has anything in stock. Sierra, “The BulletSmiths,” don’t have the marketing clout to do anything but hope to hitch a ride on any wave Federal, Hornady, Nosler, and Winchester can create. Federal recently branded their premium copper bullet the “MeatEater,” licensing the name of a US TV personality’s show. |
@ 08:30 pm (GMT) |
Michael SeagerRe: Copper madnessCertainly in the UK it's commercially driven. Game meat sells better if advertised as being shot with non-lead so it's what game dealers and shops want.Mike |
@ 05:57 am (GMT) |
Magnus HanssonRe: Copper madnessSweden has not banned lead yet, the EU has a plan of banning it and if that’s the case we are toast. I’ll give it 5 years topsMagnus |
|
@ 08:53 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Copper madnessThanks. I got the list of European countries that have banned lead from this article:https://www.19fortyfive.com/2021/09/is-lead-ammo-about-to-be-banned/ The author must have been talking about lead birdshot, not lead bullets. A recent study by the University of Cambridge linked lead poisoning of carnivorous birds to hunter density across Europe. But the study didn’t distinguish between lead shot and lead bullets. I suppose it’s conceivable that scavenging birds could consume lead fragments from gut-piles left by deer hunters, but the the extent to which bullet fragments, as opposed to lead shotgun pellets, contributes to the problem is not discussed. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/03/220316091725.htm |
|
@ 06:30 pm (GMT) |
Magnus HanssonRe: Copper madnessLead in general is of course toxic, but there is no over mortality among Swedish hunters who consumes 99% of the meat. And for birds who may (like eagles) digest lead rests from carcasses …they have never done better than past years.I think it’s a principal decision to get rid of all lead trough out the society ..the bullets is just collateral damage. But I’m sure the industry will find some equivalent replacement for lead in 5 years? Magnus |
@ 12:33 am (GMT) |
Ben ClinchRe: Copper madnessWe are where we are with respect to the move to copper in Scotland. Our game dealer now only takes animals shot with lead free ammo so that's it (500 carcasses a year).There has been enough testing over the last few years to suggest that copper and normal ranges (<300m and most under 250m) is effective, but will change load construction. If we can get more people to eat wild venison then so be it. The cost and availability of good non lead rounds is an issue and hence joining this forum to learn and share experiences. |
|
@ 01:49 am (GMT) |
Lane SalvatoRe: Copper madnessBen, that's an astute observation. If lead is to be something that is used by fewer and fewer people, something else that is effective is needed. Large manufacturers with lots of buying power don't have an answer yet, and part of that gets to the crux of the problem. The need is driven by mandate rather than an unmet need from hunters.You're right though. If enough hunters ask for highly effective non-lead projectiles then larger manufacturers will be forced to make them. I hope that happens sooner than later. I hope that smaller more innovative companies like DRT can find a market entrance overseas as well. |
Please wait
ABOUT USWe are a small, family run business, based out of Taranaki, New Zealand, who specialize in cartridge research and testing, and rifle accurizing.
|
KNOWLEDGEBASE |
KNOWLEDGEBASE |