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> Bullets for Ferlach / Josef Winker Combination Gun (12 ga. / 264 Win Mag)
Bullets for Ferlach / Josef Winker Combination Gun (12 ga. / 264 Win Mag)
@ 12:12 pm (GMT) |
Calin BrabandtMy dream has always been to be able to hunt whitetail and turkeys at the same time on our family's property so I just purchased a nice 1963 Ferlach guild combination gun to do it.I've read everything in Nathan's "Long Range Cartridges" book about bullets and 6.5mm/264 cartridges and also read the 264 Winchester Magnum section of the website knowledge base, but sadly, I can't find any Nosler Partitions for sale anywhere. The whitetail hunting here easily falls within the 90% 80 kg/180 lb rule. It would be unlikely that I would ever take the absolute maximum possible 330 yard shot on my property. 90% of the shots are between 50 and 200 yards with our 9 acre pasture presenting the long opportunities with the shorter opportunities being in steep forested terrain. Currently, my bullet purchase opportunities are: 120 gr. Barnes TTSX I don't know if his opinion applies to the TTSX tipped bullet version but Nathan wrote a surprisingly favorable mention about TSX loads for the 264 Win Mag here on Ballisticstudies.com. The 120 grain Barnes is a very flexible bullet, ideal for light through to large bodied medium game producing very wide, deep wounds. Inside 300 yards, wounding is very similar to the .300 Win Mag loaded with conventional 180 grain bullets. The performance of this particular bullet is unique and cannot be generalized. He made a few other very positive notes about the 120, 130 and 140 gr. TSX there too. It surprised me! Also available are 135 gr. Berger Classic Hunter 130 gr. ELD-M 140 gr. ELD-M I could down-load the 130 gr. ELD-M for the 50 yard shots while still preserving full efficacy for the 200 yard shots while also reducing throat wear on my the precious combo gun's barrel. (2800 fps maybe?) However, these are not large, heavy and muscular deer! According to online stability calculators, the 140 gr. ELD-M might not be a good choice for down-loading rounds, given a 1:9 twist. The 140 gr. ELD-M appears to be somewhat marginal--even with full strength 3100 fps loads. The combo gun has a 27" barrel. Any favorites or recommendations, given the above 4 bullets? Bullets are expensive and hard to come-by these days. I'd hate to make a poor selection. Thanks a bunch! |
Replies
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@ 01:56 pm (GMT) |
Calin BrabandtRe: Bullets for Ferlach / Josef Winker Combination Gun (12 ga. / 264 Win Mag)I found 123 gr. Hornaday SSTs and 140 gr. InterLock in 264 cal. too. There's no sign that InterBonds are even being made any longer. |
@ 06:37 am (GMT) |
Rob BirdRe: Bullets for Ferlach / Josef Winker Combination Gun (12 ga. / 264 Win Mag)I would just get onto ammoseek and see what is around. I am seeing lots of 140 and 147 grain ELD-M and Midway USA has 129 gr Interlock. If you don't already know, you can set specific search parameters on ammoseek and have them notify you when those become available. And, if you're willing to pony up, there's always gunbroker. I got two boxes of 6.5mm partitions last month, but I paid for it!Good luck! |
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@ 09:55 am (GMT) |
Calin BrabandtRe: Bullets for Ferlach / Josef Winker Combination Gun (12 ga. / 264 Win Mag)Thanks, Rob!I did not know about the notification feature of Ammoseek. I put in some requests. Speaking of Partitions, do you know about the Nosler blem store? https://www.shootersproshop.com/ They've had some in various calibers lately, along with Ballistic tips, which I use for whitetail. I did my best to measure the twist of the barrel, but it's tricky to measure it without +/- 0.5 error. I measured (a few times) between 1:9 and 1:10. The standard SAAMI 264 Win spec is 1:9 and that isn't even all that fast so anything slower will limit my bullet choices further--even more so if I choose to down-load to extend barrel life. Even at our 2100 feet, give or take ~250' on our property, I'm a bit worried about twist for the heavier ELD-M or ELD-X bullets. I'll just have to see how the longer bullets do in it, eventually, but for my first loads, I ordered some 130 gr. ELD-M from Cabelas, which should stabilize. The website reports short supplies so don't know if they'll actually ship though. The whitetail here are not Texas monsters so I don't know if full-tilt 3300 fps load bullet blow-up will even be a problem, but I'll probably down-load for hunting on this property anyway. I'd like to extend barrel life more than I need to extend range. After reading Nathan's advice, I'll try to buy some 130 gr. old style TSX too. The 120s and 140s don't seem to be available and the TTSX is not the same--especially the newest TTSX bullets. Like Nathan says, a bullet doesn't suddenly become unusable due to lower than optimum twist but it's my understanding that BC degrades--not that I need super high BC for hunting our property and this combo gun isn't a long range hunting sort of gun either. The old 4x Hensholdt on claw mounts as a good image and, if anything, I'd opt for a 1-4x instead, but scopes and mounting options are limited (and a custom-fitted claw mounted picatinny rail looks out of place on these guns, I think). |
@ 10:32 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Bullets for Ferlach / Josef Winker Combination Gun (12 ga. / 264 Win Mag)Hi Calin, it is very difficult to answer this because most input will be theory only. The issues you might face are 1. A rather thin barrel that may not suffer harmonic issues if loaded to full power. 2. High possibility that the chamber is cut to the original SAAMI specs which had little in the way of a throat, necessitating the use / design of a bullet narrower than .264" back past where the cannelure is normally be located. The twist rate may be the lesser concern.If at all possible, try to track down some Remington Corelokt bullets, whether 120 or 140gr. If you can pick up a cheap bulk amount, it will allow you to experiment, the bullet shape is correct for a chamber of this age. If you use a modern bullet, chances are the ogive / cannelure will end up in the case mouth. You'll just have to go with it if you cannot find the old Corelokt. If you cannot find the Corelokt, try to stick with sharper secant ogive bullets and nothing with large driving bands that force you to seat at a particular point within the case neck. Accuracy will likely be hit and miss as the barrel cannot be floated. An advantage of the 140gr ELDM is that you can download it for the sake of harmonics yet still expect good wounding. This will also help to increase penetration. So yes in that sense, it may be worth trying these if they re still available and if you are unable to able find any Remington. But again, be prepared to seat the ogive against or into the case mouth. |
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@ 10:33 am (GMT) |
Calin BrabandtRe: Bullets for Ferlach / Josef Winker Combination Gun (12 ga. / 264 Win Mag)I very much appreciate your assistance, Nathan. "Mostly theory" is a better starting point than knowing nothing! This is my first gun of this type--both this cartridge and the combo aspect of it.Quote: The issues you might face are 1. A rather thin barrel that may not suffer harmonic issues if loaded to full power.
Of course it also has the 12 ga. barrel over, with a rib between them. I have no idea how this effects "normal" rifle harmonics! Quote: 2. High possibility that the chamber is cut to the original SAAMI specs which had little in the way of a throat, necessitating the use / design of a bullet narrower than .264" back past where the cannelure is normally be located. The twist rate may be the lesser concern.
Yes--the 130 gr. ELD-M bullets I purchased may not even fit. I'll have to chuck-up a piece of brass in my lathe and single point cut some threads through the head and also open up the neck a little (everyone is out of the Hornady modified brass and I've had to do this with other cartridges). Then I can easily measure the COAL and bullet seating situation at the lands. Yes--I understand how the ELD-M might not even fit with the chamber throat, which was not really on my mind. I was mostly thinking twist and at least a 1:9 barrel would match the Hornady 130gr. box: "Twist Rate 1-9". That's why I avoided the longer and heavier ELDs. I actually bought 3 boxes (probably a lifetime supply for me) figuring that, with all the 6.5 Creedmoor guns around and all the bullet shortages, I can sell them they don't work out in my combo gun. I have not been able to measure the twist with precision. I'll look through your books and see if I missed any techniques or tips for measurement. It would be interesting to know, even with experimentation being the final say on it, though perhaps this measurement has little practical value. Quote: If at all possible, try to track down some Remington Corelokt bullets, whether 120 or 140gr.
My friend gave me a box with twenty-one 140 gr. FB SP bullets in it. He said they stabilize fine. He labelled the box ".264 Win Mag 140 Gr. Spitzer Soft Point" so I'll have to ask him if he knows the manufacturer and SKU. I measured the length at 1.120" and I searched the Quickload database. The only match in Quickload was Speer--either SP, DCSP (whatever that is) and Grand Slam. Quote: Accuracy will likely be hit and miss as the barrel cannot be floated. An advantage of the 140gr ELDM is that you can download it for the sake of harmonics yet still expect good wounding. This will also help to increase penetration. So yes in that sense, it may be worth trying these if they re still available and if you are unable to able find any Remington. But again, be prepared to seat the ogive against or into the case mouth.
Hopefully the 130gr ELDM has the nearly same properties as the 140 in 264. At our altitude, (2100' plus), the 140s might stabilize well enough too but I wanted to reduce the risk of insufficient twist and it should reduce the risks and downsides that you mention in your reply post above too. Thanks again! |
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@ 08:11 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Bullets for Ferlach / Josef Winker Combination Gun (12 ga. / 264 Win Mag)Hi Calin, 9 twist is standard for the .264 WM. It is important to not confuse basic stability with long range stability. Web calculators are very misleading in this sense, as is all the forum nonsense these days. If you want to shoot out past 1100 yards then yes, a slightly faster 1:8.5 twist would be helpful. Any faster and the jacket can begin to slip away from the core at WM speeds - regardless of whether Weeatherby or Nosler are using 8 twist bores. It simply makes for a finicky rifle that may only like certain projectiles depending on the groove geometry. If on the other hand the twist is slower than 8.5, the BC has to be tweaked a bit to make up for its degradation out past 1000 yards, being mindful of the fact that the load will likely not survive (accuracy) the transition through the sound barrier. This has nothing to do with how your rifle will shoot inside 200 yards. The purpose of a slow twist in the older magnums was to alleviate bullet stress in order to enhance accuracy. Chances are you could launch a 140gr projectile at 2400fps with a reduced H4895 load and it will likely print about an inch at 100 yards, right off the bat.The 130gr ELDM is a very soft projectile with little weight behind it. It is not really ideal for closer range work in a magnum but you will likely get by, especially if loading to mild speeds for the sake of barrel harmonics. This is the sort of bullet which might be loaded hot and used to take a series of spectacular kill shots which are eventually pasted all over the internet, followed by a dismal failure and 'won't tell my mates about that one'. But if your options are limited as per everyone these days, then its just a matter of using whatever is available. If you want to mock up a case on the cheap without distorting it too much, neck down the case then cut the neck lengthways with a dremel as per my reloading book. If you want to use the Hornady tool, chuck the case in the lathe, drill it, then run a basic 1/4" UNF tap through it, then take a larger bit and drill the threads away till only two threads remain (really only takes a few minutes). The brass will form to the unique Hornady thread without damaging the tool. Cheap and nasty but it can be done in just a few minutes, is accurate and with no damage to any tooling. Below is a link to a picture of the original Corelokt projectile. You will need a big screen to see the detail. Note the difference in bullet diameter below the upper cannelure, a stepped projectile. The second cannelure was useful as a means to arrest expansion as the .264 is very hard on projectiles (a concern with the ELDM if loaded to full speeds / used at close ranges). https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1601238455 OK, hope that lightens your concerns regarding the twist rate. The mention of the throat length is to simply make you aware of possible outcomes so that there are no hidden surprises (i.e. its not a defective chamber). Basically with this kind of rifle, to try to get it shooting at around 1 to 1.5" if possible. If it only gives 1.5 to 2" at 100 yards, so be it. Such rifles are as you will be aware, designed for shooting at driven game / domestic help at woods ranges or between hedgerows etc. Consistency will be the main goal. Accuracy may be secondary to this. So if possible, just find a way to get it up and running with a suitable hunting bullet, try to find that place where it produces whatever sized groups all of the time, rather than excellent groups some of the time. If the cartridge is potent to begin with, a low pressure download can be quite effective. This is the sort of thing that can be enjoyable if one can work within the limitations of the design with realistic expectations. Alternatively, it can be immensely frustrating if chasing both high speed and accuracy. |
@ 10:16 pm (GMT) |
Michael SeagerRe: Bullets for Ferlach / Josef Winker Combination Gun (12 ga. / 264 Win Mag)Just a thought, possibly slightly contrary to Nathan's point above but might be relevant to who built and the time your gun was built.I would try and find something slightly heavier and ideally of round nose / flat based construction which was probably what a European maker of the time considered the norm. For ranges using a combination gun, you won't give up a lot of trajectory performance using a heavier bullet so for me, I would suggest something like the Norma Oryx in 156gr form and will give good terminal performance. I would also suggest that you probably don't want to max load your cartridges due to the ejectors and a non-rimmed cartridge. High pressure and if the gun is warm might lead to sticky brass and your ejector coming past the rim of the case, leaving it stuck in the breech. (You've got lots of case capacity so finding a speed you like at a nice soft pressure shouldn't be too difficult). I used to live in Switzerland and shot / saw quite a few friends drillings and combo guns and the non-rimmed cartridges can be something to monitor. You're gun sounds really lovely. Any chance of some pictures? Unusal chambering too. I wonder if it was built with Chamois in mind. Best wishes, Mike |
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@ 06:32 pm (GMT) |
Calin BrabandtRe: Bullets for Ferlach / Josef Winker Combination Gun (12 ga. / 264 Win Mag)Quote: The 130gr ELDM is a very soft projectile with little weight behind it. It is not really ideal for closer range work in a magnum but you will likely get by, especially if loading to mild speeds for the sake of barrel harmonics. This is the sort of bullet which might be loaded hot and used to take a series of spectacular kill shots which are eventually pasted all over the internet, followed by a dismal failure and 'won't tell my mates about that one'. But if your options are limited as per everyone these days, then its just a matter of using whatever is available.
It guess I should have ordered the 140gr ELDM when it was available, because it sounds like stability is not likely to be even close to an issue, given the intended ranges I'll hunt. Quote: If you want to mock up a case on the cheap without distorting it too much, neck down the case then cut the neck lengthways with a dremel as per my reloading book.
I just read that section on COAL. That's a very clever measurement method! Quote: If you want to use the Hornady tool, chuck the case in the lathe, drill it, then run a basic 1/4" UNF tap through it, then take a larger bit and drill the threads away till only two threads remain (really only takes a few minutes). The brass will form to the unique Hornady thread without damaging the tool. Cheap and nasty but it can be done in just a few minutes, is accurate and with no damage to any tooling.
That's another clever trick. Thanks! I've made up two or three of my own modified cases for the Hornady tool. First I had to measure the thread pitch (but now I can't find where I wrote it down). Then, on my lathe, I drilled the hole and single point turned the inside threads with a tiny threading tool. Using a tap that's close to the Hornady thread and keeping only a couple of threads so they'll form to match the Hornady tool is much faster and easier. Quote: Below is a link to a picture of the original Corelokt projectile. You will need a big screen to see the detail. Note the difference in bullet diameter below the upper cannelure, a stepped projectile. The second cannelure was useful as a means to arrest expansion as the .264 is very hard on projectiles (a concern with the ELDM if loaded to full speeds / used at close ranges).
I never knew that they made bullets like that. Midway has 140gr. Remington Core Lockt ammo, though I don't know if it uses the double cannelure bullet design. It's moot though, because I'm not spending $100 per box of ammo! Yes--that's what MidwayUSA is asking--100 USD per box of 20 rounds of 264 Win Mag Quote: This is the sort of thing that can be enjoyable if one can work within the limitations of the design with realistic expectations. Alternatively, it can be immensely frustrating if chasing both high speed and accuracy.
I bought the rifle for the sort of old school hunting you mention. I don't expect it to be a long range hunting rifle. Also, I bought it from a very good collector friend of mine so I don't think I'll be disappointed with it. Your help is most appreciated. I'll see if I can still find the 140 gr. ELDM bullets. I can always sell the 130s at the next gun show. |
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@ 06:51 pm (GMT) |
Calin BrabandtRe: Bullets for Ferlach / Josef Winker Combination Gun (12 ga. / 264 Win Mag)Quote: Just a thought, possibly slightly contrary to Nathan's point above but might be relevant to who built and the time your gun was built.
I would try and find something slightly heavier and ideally of round nose / flat based construction which was probably what a European maker of the time considered the norm. Yes--I think I'll look for this style of bullet too. It would be a match with the vintage and mindset of the maker, I'm sure. Quote: I used to live in Switzerland and shot / saw quite a few friends drillings and combo guns and the non-rimmed cartridges can be something to monitor.
Thanks for this tip too. Quote: You're gun sounds really lovely. Any chance of some pictures? Unusal chambering too. I wonder if it was built with Chamois in mind.
Chamois may have been the design goal, but I read that many of these American cartridge Ferlach guild guns with Pachmayr butt pads were built for a specific large U.S. importer too. I don't know if this was one of them. My close friend who sold me the gun has been around nice German and Austrian guns and owned many of them too. He said he's never come across another combo gun in a magnum caliber. I guess it might have been custom built to satisfy a single customer's desires too. Yes--it is a beautiful gun. I will need to borrow my wife's camera but I will do so. My good camera is down. I've repaired it in the past, but it's like micro surgery getting to the electronic iris that's buried in it. Still, I might be able to fix it again. My cell phone camera is currently not working very well either. My wife's camera at least takes decent enough photos to post! Thanks for your reply to my post and interest, Mike. Also thanks for the tips. This gun is not like anything I've ever owned in the past and tips are very appreciate. Regards, Calin |
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@ 02:04 am (GMT) |
Michael SeagerRe: Bullets for Ferlach / Josef Winker Combination Gun (12 ga. / 264 Win Mag)Calin, my pleasure. Let us know how you get on.Mike |
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@ 01:14 pm (GMT) |
Calin BrabandtRe: Bullets for Ferlach / Josef Winker Combination Gun (12 ga. / 264 Win Mag)I now realize that I'm not the first to regret posting very large hi-res photos and regret not posting them as links instead of inline photos.Unfortunately, I don't seem to be able to delete the photos on Flickr, because I posted a direct link, which I obtained using the Firefox debugging tool. If Nathan can delete my original post, I'll re-post using links so the photos don't overload one's view of the thread and then the photos can be opened with a right click >> view in new tab or new window on most browsers. |
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@ 07:12 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Bullets for Ferlach / Josef Winker Combination Gun (12 ga. / 264 Win Mag)Hi Calin, pics can be inserted but they need to be resized to web large 640 x 227 pixels or something like that. Otherwise as you say, one can just as easily post a link to a large file. |
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@ 09:57 am (GMT) |
Calin BrabandtRe: Bullets for Ferlach / Josef Winker Combination Gun (12 ga. / 264 Win Mag)Thanks, Nathan! Sorry about that.My smartphone photos aren't great but I don't know when I'll get around to performing the micro-surgery required to fix my good camera (I've don't it once previously and it took a couple hours plus) so I'm posting what I've got as fairly hi-res as links, because some of the photos are worth zooming-in with a browser or downloading them for further inspection. There are still way more examples of the engraving and details than can be revealed with my smartphone though. https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52137154736_7f19957689_k.jpg https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52137155061_2d40ab6eb8_k.jpg https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52137177053_421a91c911_k.jpg https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52137176843_43ba663477_k.jpg https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52137177223_fb2376c11a_k.jpg The Hensholdt 6x42 scope is still in nice shape and there's nothing wrong with the flip-up rear sight for the shots normally taken with a combo-gun either. However, I purchased some Leupold extra high 30mm rings and I plan to mill and file claw mount rings from them. I bought an extra set for "practice" opportunities. I'd like to mount a "straight" 30mm tube scope (24mm objective lens) with true 1x power on the bottom end--maybe 1-4x24 up to maybe 1-8x24 maximum magnification. I'm pretty sure I can also shoot game birds with a true 1x scope, as I've done it with a red dot sight in the past. The problem is nearly all new scopes of this type (low power variable optics or "LPVO") feature "tactical" style reticles these days. The rings/mounts required to fit a larger objective bell are super expensive, even before custom fitting, which at ~1500USD gunsmith labor, I plan to (learn to) do myself. :) Another solution is a custom-fit claw picatinny rail, which just doesn't look right on a gun like this gun! Hopefully the above links worked out. |
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