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Boring question

09 Mar 2021
@ 11:44 am (GMT)

Scott Struif

I’ve read short cartridges are better because the rifles are shorter & lighter, the actions are stiffer, and the bolt-throw is shorter. What I don’t get is the claim that short, fat cartridges are more efficient. I’ve read that they burn powder more quickly, so therefore they need less of it to achieve the same velocity as their longer counterparts. Hence, the WSMs. Seems counter-intuitive to suggest that, given equal amounts of powder in a long cartridge vs. a short one, the latter would be faster, or less of a “barrel-burner.” Another misconception seems to be that a short, fat cartridge needs less barrel-length. For instance, Winchester sells their WSM rifles with 24” barrels, but their other magnums with 26” barrels. Seems like BS to me.

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09 Mar 2021
@ 03:44 pm (GMT)

Scott Struif

Re: Boring question
In the Knowledgebase article on the 7mmRM, Nathan recommends a 28” barrel for optimum performance. My question is, Does a short, fat cartridge allow reduced barrel-length for equivalent performance, or is there something about long cartridges that requires a longer barrel-length for the powder to burn completely?
09 Mar 2021
@ 07:57 pm (GMT)

Florian Edelweiss

Re: Boring question
Yes, in my opinion you are right !

look at this article with an 21" 300wsm Client Rifle.
https://journalofmountainhunting.com/hornady-eld-x-by-joseph-peter/
or a friend of mine is shooting a 7rsaum with 22" perfect length for it.

short fat and much pressure ;-)

but is something interesting for this example I choose the 6.5x55
have a look at the
https://www.vihtavuori.com/reloading-data/rifle-reloading/

and have a look at the 6.5x55 load data for old military rifle and
an on the other side the load data for modern action systems you find it under 6.5x55 Skan load data.

So example Car engines big blocks have power need engine size (barrel length)
The other has turbo supercharger with less engine size.
The perfect way is the combination big block and turbo supercharger ;-)

fun at the edge I would choose a 4x4 ;-)

But You're right, if I would go with less barrel length I would choose
6,5creedmoor with 20", 6,5x55 with 22", 300wsm with 22"-23",
7 Rsaum with 22" 7RemMag with 24" 6,5PRC with 22"

But the best way is getting a reloading tool. GRT-Tools are for free
https://www.grtools.de (for pc & linux)
choose your cartridge, choose your barrel length your bullet and test with powders and know for which distance you need it and the bullet will work.



10 Mar 2021
@ 05:21 am (GMT)

Scott Struif

Re: Boring question
Thanks, Florian. According to vihtavuori, 64.9 grains of N160 gives a muzzle velocity of 2862 in a 300 H&H with a 185 gr. Scenario. In a 300 WSM, 65.1 gr. gives MV of 2894. That’s the closest comparison I could find. Splitting hairs. Unfortunately, they tested the 7mm WSM with a 26” barrel, as opposed to the 7RM, where they used a 24” barrel. Although they used the same bullet, powder, grains, etc., the WSM was faster due to the extra 2” of barrel. My guess is Winchester’s marketing ploy is to foster the illusion that their WSMs don’t need barrel lengths like other magnums. Joseph Peter’s client rifle carries that to it’s illogical extreme . . . a 21” barrel for a 300 WSM? It would make more sense to say, “Here’s a shorter, lighter action to which we’ve attached a long barrel.” That’s how Ruger marketed the No. 1.
10 Mar 2021
@ 08:50 am (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: Boring question
Hi Scott, yes, a lot of BS these days, especially around action stiffness and bolt throw. A poorly bedded / fitted action will bend whether short or long. A well designed action that is properly bedded to the stock is the key to a good platform. A short bolt lift equals less primary extraction and cocking (on opening) camming power. Bolt throw is a matter of familiarity.

Any increase in combustion within the chamber area Same given space) will invariably lead to high pressures within that area, hence the high pressure rating / strong brass for the WSM's.

In the Rem Mag section, I wrote that 26" is optimal, through to 28" for dedicated LR rigs (actually 32" can also be very fast). This was not all that well defined so I have edited it, putting a full stop after stating that 26" is optimal. From my perspective, there is a good balance between portability and power in the Rem Mag at 26" (about a half inch longer than a half stocked Lee Enfield). So in this sense, the word optimal is with regards to power and portability. The trouble is, this is a subjective definition. The new generation of hunters would probably consider a 6lb rifle with 22" barrel optimal.
10 Mar 2021
@ 10:20 am (GMT)

Scott Struif

Re: Boring question
Thanks Nathan. I understand how an ounce saved here, an ounce there, add up for an alpine hunter (or any pedestrian hunter, for that matter). But saving a couple ounces on barrel-length, thus handicapping your cartridge, is ludicrous. A 20-inch hack-rifle (or “truck gun”, as we call them here) is a different story. But who needs a magnum truck gun? I was trying to figure out if there were some “hidden magic” in a short, squat case. I think there is not.
11 May 2021
@ 12:11 pm (GMT)

Christopher Howse

Re: Boring question
Quote:
Thanks Nathan. I understand how an ounce saved here, an ounce there, add up for an alpine hunter (or any pedestrian hunter, for that matter). But saving a couple ounces on barrel-length, thus handicapping your cartridge, is ludicrous. A 20-inch hack-rifle (or “truck gun”, as we call them here) is a different story. But who needs a magnum truck gun? I was trying to figure out if there were some “hidden magic” in a short, squat case. I think there is not.


It's all interesting and good to read.
I think what Nathan is saying is that if you bed a properly built Tikka it will work a charm.

I think there are too many variables and there is a real science behind it. I've heard about bending actions and pre stressing actions in the stock from target shooters.

I worried about short action, short bolt throw when I was younger and the budget would not stretch to get anything built anyway. I dreamed of a Titanium action and full custom build and extreme accuracy.

I see accuracy as important, it offsets some of the other factors that come into play at range but many production rifles probably have acceptable accuracy for hunting and can be improved with a little work and load development.

As for cartridges I still think .308 , .300wm, .270 all have a place.

Modern incarnations may have an edge but it's still relevant to barrel length and appropriate ammo. And components of you are reloading nthe powder properties can help or hinder

A truck rifle. I like my Tikka CTR in 7mm-08, it has done well with moderate recoil when shooting from the car.

I had a .280ai built on a CF stock with a , 26".CF wrapped barrel. . I have not done much with it yet but I did not overthink the action length, rigidity or anything as Tikka are capable of good results from the box.

My first Tikka was a little dissapointing when I started to strip it down and realised the modularity of it. But now I have a few and I use that to my advantage as I can swap stocks and accessories easily if I want to reconfigure a rifle for some reason.

Where Nathan says about familiarity for bolt throw is exactly that. I don't think any of us are that fast that short bolt throw or action length are going to have too much effect on follow up shots or reloading the rifle.

By chance I've gone with Tikka but that's party a financial decision as I did consider a Christensen Arms when the price looked right.

Nathan's comments of optimal and subjective all ring true to what you find fits you and your use. Should 50fps or 100fps velocity be a deciding factor in making a decision on the overall setup. Probably not , it probably pays to get the rig right then other ammo, then work the drop etc based on what you have not a theoretical comparison of someone else data.

I decided on a .280ai for moderate recoil, no brake, lightweight build, availability of components (Brass), component cost vs more expensive less common cartridge cases. And my satisfaction of the 7-08.

I still have my .308 and .300wm because they work and they are common.

I still have a lot to learn but I hope I have put a commonsense spin on some stuff. If budget allows then shoot for the stars there is some really nice high tech gear out there.
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