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Bullet weight

14 Nov 2020
@ 06:09 am (GMT)

Frank Vallich

Currently at a quandary regarding self defense cartridge, bear in the woods, in .308. Is there any significant gain is using a 220 grain vs a 168 grain when the velocity and energy is greater with the 168?

100 yards: If we compare the Hornady 220 ( V=2047 E=2049 SF=2.31) interlock to the 165 interlock (V=2486 E=2264 SF=2.15) and for the physics the 150 Interlock (V= 2558 E=2180 SF=2.54)

Interlock design: ONE-PIECE CORE
Does not separate like two-piece divided cores. The InterLock® retains more mass and energy for deep penetration and large, consistent wound channels that ensure quick, clean kills.

I'd appreciate responses as I attempt to better understand terminal performance of bullets.

Replies

14 Nov 2020
@ 01:10 pm (GMT)

Daniel Schindler

Re: Bullet weight
Frank,

I'm sorry I can't help but wanted to say, I think you've asked a good question, one I've thought about often. I hope someone chimes in here as I'd like to hear their thoughts as well.

Cheers.
14 Nov 2020
@ 03:17 pm (GMT)

Mike Davis

Re: Bullet weight
now I dont shoot bears...BUT would think something in the middle would be far better/safer option.
180-200 grn...still have bit of velocity but ample penetration.
big angry thing trying to eat me,I would want as much stopping power as possible...plenty of penetration to reach vitals and hopefully spine or at least to smash as much bone as possible....slow the thing down before it gets close enough to start biting...
if were sold on lighter projectile...I would have to ask WHY??? unless you trying to use regular deer load in which case you asking two different jobs from same projectile ...it would have to be very hard/stout in order to hold together to get in and break bones etc so wouldnt be ideal on deer......or soft to expand on deer but wouldnt go deep enough on big angry toothy critter.



a 180 partition might be answer to both questions if your deer are normally under hundred yards..... and then there are bears n bears...are you talking angry mumma black bear or riled up grizzly/brown bear????
read what the bossman says about cartridges on bovines and the answer might jump out at you....both critters are big n solid,but only one wants to eat you...
14 Nov 2020
@ 03:23 pm (GMT)

Mike Davis

Re: Bullet weight
another way to put it...if you had to get past a roadblock/brick wall would you rather be driving a kenworth loaded with logs doing 50kmph or a ferrari doing 200kmph????
doesnt matter what the figures say...the big heavy will go further.
240grn out of 44mag or 40 grn out of 22-250 will on paper have similar energy,the 44 mag will drive deep the 22-250 will be shallow wide wound,mono projectile will give it SOME penertration but you have to think will it expand correctly or do enough damage if hits bone.....
maybe big heavy and really soft is way to go??? pleased we dont have bears here....good excuse to always carry a .12ga if we did.
15 Nov 2020
@ 05:32 am (GMT)

Scott Struif

Re: Bullet weight
Hi Frank. I watched a documentary series on Netflix a couple years ago called “Mountain Men.” One of the guys made his living running cougars and bears off cattle ranches in Montana. He took a 12 gauge, I assume loaded with slugs, to deal with a grizzly. The bear wasn’t impressed by stern voice commands to leave, so he fired a warning shot and the bear took off. If you’re talking about carrying your 308 on picnics and such, I’d go with the heavier bullet, like Mike said, but I wouldn’t let the presence of bears dictate bullet-choice for a deer hunt. At the range you’d be shooting a bear in self-defense, I doubt the 150 grain Interlock would let you down. There are lots of black bears where I deer hunt in Oregon. Regardless of species, you’re fucked if one gets ahold of you. I don’t hunt bear. If I did, I’d probably use my 30-06, but I feel confident my 243 deer gun with Accubonds would get the job done at 20 or 30 yards.
15 Nov 2020
@ 07:48 am (GMT)

Frank Vallich

Re: Bullet weight
Detail was lacking in my initial post and this is my attempt to clarify.

I don't hunt bear.

I would not shoot any animal just because they are within personal space and that depends upon terrain.

On a cross body carry sling a light weight, iron sight, 22 inch semi .308 for personal protection is my choice for walking the bush.

The only shot at a bear will be a full on frontal attack. The adrenalin will be pumping and I'll be jacked up. I work well with adrenaline but not well enough to use bear spray. The bear will be a predatory a$$hole or a mother with brood that crossed paths. The buggers are stealthy. Encounters to date have been fortunate for both as they have avoided as much as I have avoided. I retreat and leave the area. There is that frozen moment in time where they smell and determine their action and I'm startled yet stepping backwards quickly (assists in depleting the adrenaline rush). Running full tilt after I'm out of sight.

So what is stopping POWER? I consider the construction and energy of the bullet. I chose the 165 Interlock. Exposed lead tip more E and V than the 220 and manageable recoil where the 180 is more violent in controlling.

At one point in time I did carry a 12 gauge loaded alternately with 3 inch 00 and rifled slugs. Too slow for follow up shot. Too violent recoil. Poor knowledge about bullet performance. Everything the boss talks about for ethical harvest of wildlife. Correct choice of bullet.

Practice to maintain and solidify muscle memory. I will add that a good sling is required for carry and rapid deployment. No fussing or fiddling around as seconds count. I was lucky in the past and no longer foolish to live on luck.


15 Nov 2020
@ 11:26 am (GMT)

Scott Struif

Re: Bullet weight
My experience has been, from a bench at the range, over-thinking shit, recoil is a factor, whether illusory or not. In other words, I sometimes wonder if it’s a factor. In the field, I’ve never given recoil a second thought, and never been the slightest bit concerned about it. In the heat of the moment, an ursine bearing down on you, or you bearing down on an ungulate, recoil is the last thing in your mind.
15 Nov 2020
@ 12:16 pm (GMT)

Mike Davis

Re: Bullet weight
if your .12ga was too slow for follow up shots,you dont practice/use it enough.....you should be as quick or quicker than using your rifle....agree with amunition choice...with possibility of some very hot #7 buck (22calx30ish per round) in recent years with steel shot loading,the humble shotgun has gone from 1100-1200fps up to 1700fps for really hot loads.....a hot load of #bbs makes one hell of a mess up close...but as you say recoil is a factor...when adrenalin is pumping,not so much...I seldom if ever feel recoil on an animal,on paper yes.
end of day its your choice/your life.
as long as your 165grn load PENERTRATES deep enough.....yeah maybe as good..... but still think kenworth loaded with logs will go deeper than ferrari and if spine is to be reached/pelvis shattered/bones smashed I would want as much on my side as could get and handle.
have a look at what guides on the dark continent have used for the job forever......the humble SxS 12GA WITH BUCK N BALL still features highly for toothy critters.
16 Nov 2020
@ 07:11 am (GMT)

Frank Vallich

Re: Bullet weight
Scoot/Mike:

Thanks for chiming in/sounding off.

Once again I did not clarify my thoughts correctly. Specifically Recoil.
After installing the RS3 slings I’ve been testing/practicing shooting from one knee on the ground with the semi. One step forward, dropping onto the right knee while bringing up the rifle and firing at metal lawn ornaments (Chickens-roosters on 6 inch metal wire legs about 8 inches in diameter) at 50 yards.

The recoil is manageable with the 165s. Manageable being: (“I’m able to maintain the iron sights on target and squeeze off 5 rapid shots and consistently hit the bird.) With the 180s, Trophy Bonded as an example, the shots drift to the right. I stood up cardboard to understand where the 180 shots were impacting.

This testing is being done twice a week at an abandoned oil lease road that is 850 yards in length and 5 yards in width. Now with snow on the frozen ground shooting /practicing prone shots with the scoped .308, out to 450 yards currently, is practical. No mud, bugs and debris jamming into the body. Snow can be beneficial.

Yes I’m betting the velocity of the 165 will penetrate and expand as it is a lead core. My thoughts about the physics are the 165 is moving faster with more E than the 220 and has adequate kinetic/potential energy. It should penetrate deeper than the 220. The 180 has approximately 50 ft/lbs greater E.

The 12 gauge shotgun I own is a short barrelled riot gun with a full length stock. No pistol grip. Not into geese or ducks and have a 20 gauge for chickens. The semi is maintained and has shot without mishaps in weather from 28C to – 16C. Rifles and cartridges are placed in the garage overnight and then out to the lease road 65K west.

I’m betting on consistent shot placement and muscle memory.

I do enjoy my picnics in the bush. No one (The Neighbour Hahaha) giving scornful looks because I’m not wearing a mask to save myself from Covid 19..... Hysteria is ruining/destroying economies around the planet.
 

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