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> Lehigh Defense Controlled Chaos
Lehigh Defense Controlled Chaos
@ 11:24 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifCalifornia is the only US state that has banned hunting bullets containing lead, yet many manufacturers, even small ones, offer lead-free bullets. It’s hard to see how a finite market like California could justify the R&D, tooling, and other production costs. A member of this forum from Norway mentioned that there may soon be legislation in Europe that bans lead bullets (which would, ironically, render the 6.5x55 illegal there, because the weight of a lead-free bullet would not meet the minimum required muzzle energy in that caliber, except for roe deer . . . which is probably why Norma doesn’t offer their Ecostrike bullet in 6.5. Speaking of Norma, they have a new lead-free bullet, Evostrike, consisting of a frangible tin front core, and non-expanding tin rear core for penetration. In their promotional video, they state consumption of tin is good for your bones, prevents cancer, and boosts the immune system!:https://youtu.be/mQH-NBiweXw Norma apparently thinks there’s a worldwide market for their lead-free products, which they say in the video they a developing at top-speed, and plan to expand to all of their product line. They also mention that the world is becoming more environmentally-conscious.) Nathan mentioned in his latest live-feed that Barnes bullets can no longer be relied on to expand. He takes a dim view of the lead-free movement in general for that reason: failure to expand except at close-range/high velocity = lost, suffering animal, although he does recommend the GMX (and until recently, the TSX) for close-range work. It’s unrealistic for Nathan to test all these lead-free offerings that are hitting the market and probably not readily available in NZ. I ran across another lead-free bullet, from Lehigh Defense, a US manufacturer. It’s a monometal hollow point that purports to shed its front half, rather than mushroom, down to the bottom of the hollowed out area, leaving the rear half intact for further penetration. As usual, the efficacy of the terminal performance is conclusively demonstrated in a slow-motion video of a block of ballistic gel that leaps from a table. |
Replies
@ 12:23 pm (GMT) |
Luis VazquezRe: Lehigh Defense Controlled ChaosHi Scott:There is another manufacturer in the U.S. you can look in to: Hammer Bullets. I believe they now ship internationally, Similar design to the Lehigh, it sheds the tip in to 4 pieces and the rest of the bullet continues penetrating. Google them and you'll find quite a bit of info on them. I've been looking in to them for a while now due to my wife preferring no lead in the meat. Although I am not required to use non lead bullets and am a huge fan of SST bullets I am going to try them out. I just ordered some 140gr Absolute Hammers for my 7mm-08's and will be ordering the 143gr Hammer Hunters soon for my 7mm Rem Mag to try out in the coming weeks. Barbourcreek has a video on youtube that you can see as well. Hope this helps and best regards Luis |
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@ 06:14 pm (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Lehigh Defense Controlled ChaosThanks, Luis. The 4-piece petal separation seems easier to implement than the supposed explosion of fragments Lehigh claims to have figured out. There’s also Cutting Edge, who claim the front half of their bullet separates into 6 pieces. It’s hard to keep them straight. Nathan spoke favorably of DRT, who packs metallic powder into the nose of their bullets. Also Fort Scott Munitions, who claims their sold copper spritzers, with no hollow point, “tumble upon impact.” The current trend seems to be be away from the mushrooming Barnes pioneered, which is probably a good thing. Some make wildly unbelievable claims in their promotional videos. For example, DRT shows an elk dropped with one shot from a 243, Fort Scott a black bear pole axed with a 223. (Neither, of course, shows the actual wounds that accomplished such feats.) All blithely fire their product into ballistic gel as proof of their performance on game. There must be a market outside of California for these products. Otherwise, a big company like Norma, who has virtually no market share in the US, wouldn’t be dumping all the R&D into it. |
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@ 07:20 pm (GMT) |
Luis VazquezRe: Lehigh Defense Controlled ChaosI went with these bullet for several reasons:One, it's terminal performance, I am yet to find a complaint on them unlike Barnes that you'll find tons of them. Two, less meat damage, less blood shot meat. Third, no lead. Here is a link that I found that shows their performance on game: https://www.longrangehunting.com/posts/1609486 Best regards, Luis |
@ 09:08 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Lehigh Defense Controlled ChaosHi Scott and others. For the sake of transparency:Lehigh. I have consulted with Lehigh in the past. They have stated that they are fans of my research. Generally speaking, they have been enthusiastic, polite and friendly toward me. In turn, I would describe my communication with them as harsh, curt and critical. How they have put up with me I will never know. In order to obtain desirable results, Lehigh have sacrificed some BC for terminal performance (as it should be). In plain terms, large hollow points ahead of slick high BC meplats. There is still some difficulty in bridging the full velocity spectrum for any Prius bullet maker. Copper bullets can be made to work at high speeds or can be carefully engineered (with cost) to work adequately at low speeds (tiddler cartridges designed for Special forces and or children under the age of 6) but it is hard to bridge both. Lehigh are continually working on improvements with no help from me apart from comments like - Well then perhaps you'd better not state that this is the best bullet ever if you intend to replace it next year. Yep, I'm that guy. Suffice to say, Lehigh are tolerant folk. Norma. I have been working for Norma during the Lock down, writing educational content while looking into company values and future possibilities. Norma management are fans or my research. Norma staff have been refreshing to work with, sick of click rates and BS marketing strategies, they wish to come back to grass roots. I may or may not continue on as a consulting ballistics expert for Norma. Management have been a breath of fresh air, open to all learning. In turn, I have been... yep here we go again - harsh, curt and critical. Yet not only do they put up with me, they pay me! Wow. So basically, what they are striving for is honesty and accountability. You can't ask for much more than that. This is about all I will say for now. Will see how this work pans out over the coming months. Scott, as you say, its hard to keep track. Just keep in mind that there is still a great deal of misunderstanding at the bullet maker's level. A major problem occurs when start up bullet makers create a product without understanding physics or biology. But away they go, then try to fit marketing (a narrative) to the product to make it profitable. In essence, profit is put first, education and terminal performance second to this. As I have said time and again, if the bullets were truly good, wording such as eco / environment / non-toxic would be at the bottom of the list, not the top. Anyone who uses fear to sell a product really has it all backwards. Luis, above you wrote that you like copper because it produces less meat damage. Please understand, bullets kill by causing damage. The less damage, the slower the kill. In a manner of speaking, its kind of like saying that you like these bullets because they don't work / lack action. What you say has some merit, but it also accurately describes the limitations of copper - wounds are smaller. The further you shoot or the less power you employ such as Mr Manbunbeard with his .300 AAC or 6.5 Grendel, the slower the kill. Bottom line - At high velocity, in order to impart kinetic energy as hydraulic (not mechanical) force, the bullet must change form. The more dramatic the change in form, the greater the energy transfer. But in the absence of high velocity and without hydraulic force potential, the bullet must shed mass to create a mechanical wounding effect. Ideally, the bullet must shed up to or more than 50% mass / weight in order to achieve an optimal effect in the absence of high velocity and or in the absence of high kinetic energy potential such as with the .223. There are many other factors to this including some contradictions (e.g African game or handgun barrier), but the statements made here are a starting point and are the most fundamental aspects. I would estimate that over 90% of ballisticians, ammo makers and end users fail to understand these basic scientific principles. Finally I will say this. If we do not soon learn the above principles, we risk losing our sport entirely. To my mind, it goes like this - Progressives (new is good / anything old is bad) decide to ban lead on mass for eco reasons. Hunters adopt copper but next generation can no longer shoot straight, employ junk rifles, low powered cartridges and narrow wounding eco friendly bullets. Following an ongoing period of slow killing, hunting is considered cruel. Young hunters turn away from the sport, the progressives push for final bans. The only way to prevent this is through education, hence my commitment to hunters these past decades along with more recent work such as the value propositions that I have thrust on to Norma without pleasantries or apologies. Either elevate yourselves or kiss this all goodbye. |
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@ 09:36 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Lehigh Defense Controlled ChaosJust something for young folk:Research: Something Steph and I do. This requires many years of hard work and sacrifice. We publish many results here as free education. To fund this, we rely on hunter donations and paid research contracts while other aspects of our research are withheld and shared in our books. Blogging: Something others do. This takes less than a week. You are the product being sold to advertisers. The information does not have to be truthful or useful and such blog posts can be found throughout the internet. As long as folk are clicking on adverts, bloggers keep pumping out junk. The more junk, the more room there is for adverts. Try to understand the difference between research and blogging. A researcher for example, will explain the strengths and limitations of a cartridge or the pros AND cons of a certain rifle design. Contract research also brings about accountability. A blogger might just instead suggest that you sell your .308 and buy the latest rifle / cartridge design without investigating any limitations. |
@ 11:08 am (GMT) |
Frank VallichRe: Lehigh Defense Controlled ChaosProgressives (new is good / anything old is bad)In Alberta Canada the progressive aspect is choked with the pecking order of government. The Director of Wildlife Policy and I exchanged emails regarding having an accuracy competition for special draws of moose, mule deer etc. This person was negative on the idea. The President of Alberta Hunter Education Instructors’ Association saw the benefit of implementation BUT the bureaucracy of government gave the hammer to the director. No one wants to rock the boat. I discussed the idea at a meeting of the Wabamun gun club. Stating once again hunter education , ethical harvest of Wildlife. Promoting the sport with competitive marksmanship for special Wildlife draws. You could hear a pin drop in the room. One member approached me after the meeting and stated " Why would I want that idea moving forward? I'd never would get a draw." Old ideas remain. Seniority remains. Fear of progressive change. The pecking order of life. I quit after four years the fire department. Seniority. Chronism. Nepotism. Not the best ideas moving forward just the same status quo. Nothing to further the progress of understanding and implementing ballistics. The media has the final say as only unethical behaviour receives attention. |
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@ 12:30 pm (GMT) |
Luis VazquezRe: Lehigh Defense Controlled ChaosThanks for the advice Nathan, I appreciate your input as always. I want to try to satisfy my wife's wishes of no lead especially now with our toddler.As I mentioned before I love the SST bullets, the 139gr in my 7mm-08 is the fastest killing bullet I have ever used. Animals literally drop in their tracks with well placed shots. Working on loads for the 162gr in my 7mm Rem Mag but havent found a good load yet. Excuse my poor choice of words, on the meat damage I meant that the Hammer bullets don't cause much blood shot meat therefore less meat lost. They are supposed to cause a large wound diameter due to the flat front of the bullet that continues penetrating after losing the tip. They do give up some BC due to their design as you mentioned and in my case I would not shoot past 500m or 600m with them. Say I'm between two swords Lol. So it's a tough choice to make. Thanks again and hope family is doing good. Luis |
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@ 02:34 pm (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Lehigh Defense Controlled ChaosI hadn’t thought about the blogger/advert angle. What amuses me is the new-product rollouts the big companies stage (including Norma): invite a group of professional gun-writers to hunt on a game farm/ranch (or similar venue where the presence of game is ensured), pay their travel expenses, wine & dine them, supply them with the new product . . . all on the off-chance they might write favorable articles extolling the new product (if they want to be invited back for the next new product rollout).I agree in principle with Frank’s idea regarding a basic skills test as a prerequisite to issuance of tags. But I think it would be cost-prohibitive for the government to implement such a program. I pay about $200/year for a resident hunting/fishing license, including deer/elk tag fees. That money is earmarked for wildlife conservation, which is good. What would it cost me for the gov’t to maintain rifle ranges and test all the thousands of hunters that apply for elk tags? Plus, the government’s basic skills test for automobile drivers, for example, is expensive, I’m sure, but hasn’t resulted in a noticeable improvement in the overall field performance of the successful applicants. Regarding terminal performance of monometal bullets, the distinction, or cutoff point, between hydraulic damage and mechanical damage, is not easy for me to calibrate, although I understand the concept . . . the sacrifice of BC for mechanical damage, in Lehigh’s case, for example. Where I hunt, shots over 200 yards are a rarity. So I think I’d be safe using them, if I wanted to go green. I could always carry a few lead-based rounds in my pocket for longer pokes. |
@ 09:17 pm (GMT) |
Mike DavisRe: Lehigh Defense Controlled ChaosI was thinking about the "sponsored angle" ....the semi auto shotgun and gangbanging of decoying ducks is shown in nearly all videos and TV shows.... the fells doing the shooting DONT pay for the ammunition....young impressionable folk think its the normal way to do things so the ammunition manufacturers make up for any sponsored costs in spades . a couple of years ago,my bro in law and I met two young hunters up hill looking for wallabies..they had brandnew rifle,just purchased from guncity. just the ticket for them the sales person said..this is good ammunition the said... I asked them how many rounds they had fired to sight it in??? guy in shop has bore sighted it for them... yes ar15 with highland ammunition.... I carried on with my min mauser and zmax loads content with knowing it works. |
@ 10:01 pm (GMT) |
Warwick MarflittRe: Lehigh Defense Controlled ChaosIf hunters want to hunt then it should be up to them to prove their proficiency? Clubs have ranges and range officers. I know that many don't like to have to be a club member ! But United we stand, divided we'll fall...... so the answer is that you join an accredited club, become a member. Get involved with your chosen activitie. Read text books, practice on the range. Pass tests in prone off hand and properly learn how to use a rifle for real life hunting..... The end result will be a better educated experience for all involved in wild food gathering ... If you don't have the desire time and money to invest in yourself? The Butchers shops just a drive down the street..... Knowledge ,commitment, desire, education, respect and humility along with fitness of body and mind are all related requirements for Hunting well..... Knowing when "Not to shoot" is the final thing to learn..... I also think that taking a camera and leaving the food collection tools in the safe. Finding animals and watching them. Is a great way to get rid of Buck fever.... It amazes me how some people get jittery and stupefied at the sight of Bambi...... well supervised training is the beginning of a solution and a better result.Officials can't ignore large groups of well educated and organized clubs..... Think about it and look at the alternative....... Remember? Your only as good as your last shot..... Lead could be replaced with tungsten! Its heavier than lead and combined with copper, brass,tin or maybe aluminum you could have a smaller yet heavier projectile.... wedges, hollow points, electroplating, annealing and other ideas designed into the mechanical action to getting the required controlled deformation of the projectile are all possible? Cost of manufacturing will be the deciding limitation...... how toxic is a lead bullet thats been removed after the hunt? Or maybe the banning is for other reasons? .... lets keep out of that rat's hole...... 140gn partition or Amax in my swede @2850fps work well for me so I won't be changing unless forced to......cheers all. Keep safe and your powder dry..... |
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@ 04:06 am (GMT) |
Frank VallichRe: Lehigh Defense Controlled ChaosClubs have ranges and range officers. YES THAT IS SOOO TRUE!No need for further government intervention other than issuing a tag that was earned, yes earned, by being a proficient and knowledgeable marksman. Nothing in life is free. There should or would be a charge for taking an accredited tag test. You fail you lose. Only winners achieve the privilege. As it is now everyone gets a ribbon/tag just cause they threw money down for a weapon. A change is required and as Warwick stated "United we stand, divided we'll fall......" To further this cause/idea an accredited knowledgeable person is required to champion this with a written proposal. It has to start SOMEWHERE! I vote for Nathan! Yeah easy for me to say BUT if NZ began such a program others, Scott, myself and others, could point the bureaucrats nose in the right direction to the idea. |
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@ 08:51 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Lehigh Defense Controlled ChaosAs you all know, the problem with many education courses is that they end up becoming their own form of bureaucracy. A chance for small dictators to shine in small stagnant ponds. I don't want to force my knowledge onto others. I would rather see hunters inspired by example if this is possible. |
@ 10:59 am (GMT) |
Joshua MayfieldRe: Lehigh Defense Controlled ChaosThere Foster goes again, implying that the extra effort of doing it the right way through respectful relationship is worth it.... sheesh. Quit resisting the dark side, Nathan. Bahahaha. |
@ 11:50 pm (GMT) |
Jussi RiikariRe: Lehigh Defense Controlled ChaosI hunt in Finland, mainly driven hunts twise a week all season trough. Here in many hunting clubs lead free has become THE thing to many hunters. If i ever use lead bullets and some of these "believers" as I call them sees it they tend to ask me: "Why? Game dies with lead free, don't poison me".I believe that here most hunters get biased towards Barnes style monolithic lead free bullets beacause those tend to work pretty good in this type of hunting. Quartering shots, less ideal shot placement with possible heavy bone hits, close to very close ranges with high speed hits. But I constanty see every year how with good rear lung shot deers make long over 100m dead runs. Ammo manufacturers have offered very heavy bullets in this section 165gr and up in most used 308 win. Its unusual to see other cartridges used here excluding 9.3x62. Now the offerings include faster 150gr bullets too, but I cant see people going to this direction because many remembers the heavy and slow RN worked great 15-20 years ago. I was using for 15 years 308 win Lapua Mega 185gr RN mostly because I didn't now anything about ballistics and I was told to get as heavy bullet as possible. Well it did good for moose at close range. But afterwards i think it packed too much momentum for roe and whitetail deers. Eventually I stepped up to 30-06 some 5 years ago and still sticked at heavy side with Sako Hammerhead 220gr. Then under pressure jumped to the lead free train. I went straight to the fast and light side with Norma Ecostrike after I found Nathans writings. After two seasons trough and ~12 deer or so after didn't found performance I was hoping for. Still long runs after broadside lung and shoulder shots, tried to get shots more forwads as usual but found no difference. In driven hunts here I like to get instant coma because narrow angles for shot and low visibility. This season I've put RWS bullet in work as Norma EvoStrike. So long found this one to deliver good stopping and broad wounds that bleed fast. I was afraid that this kind of constuction would blow up at high speed at close range but for exsample the roe deer fawn I shot week ago: High quartering shot just front of the shouder to chest side at 14m, came out after last long rib. All lungs were mush, half of the liver and heart gone, all opposite ribs broke. Instat coma, no meat ruined not one bit. Can't see if these would ruin meat any more than those monolihtic ones (as it seems to be admirable here) Fragmenting bullets are the other "forbidden" thing here because meat damage but I keep that info for my self as the ones I've shot have been one of the cleanest bodies around. I've read knowledge section trough and trough couple of times. I love it, I'm obsessed, can't stop, every day I read something for fourth year in row. This site makes my day and feel alive. |
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@ 09:07 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Lehigh Defense Controlled ChaosJussi, thanks for your observations. I also re-read the Knowledgebase articles, as well as Nathan’s books, because I find that as my internal “knowledge-base” increases, I learn something new revisiting them. I also learn just as much from these forums. What I like about them is there are no charlatans . . . just world-class info, both in the sense that it comes from around the globe, and also is based on real-world experience. For instance, I had assumed the Barnes-inspired, all-copper bullets would be fine for close-range, high-velocity shots, until I read your description of long dead-runs. |
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@ 06:31 pm (GMT) |
Jussi RiikariRe: Lehigh Defense Controlled ChaosThese monolithic bullets sure do best at close and fast. I personally think that the factory loadings are mostly just too heavy for lean to mid sized deer here, for moose or european elk if you will these are dynamite.Surely the fact that in driven hunting when game is mostly chased rather than just spooked or walking by they are pumped up with adrenaline that makes them going after good shot anyway. The stories about shots taked from high seats kind confirms it as you dont often hear from long dead runs when shot is taken under 100m to calm feeding game. But thats the thing, it takes lots of research to make good conclusions. |
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