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Forum Index > Rifles general discussion > Canted action in my T3x bedding job

Canted action in my T3x bedding job

01 May 2020
@ 12:29 pm (GMT)

Ryan Tockstein

I bought a few of Nathan's books and rented some of his Tikka bedding videos in preparation for bedding my T3x superlite .30-06 into a Boyds laminate stock. I completed the bedding last week. Pictures are attached!



I first bedded the bottom metal (atlasworxs factory style bottom metal that I modified to be more ergonomic and aesthetically nice) because there was a low spot in the inlet near both action screws. This caused one end of the bottom metal to raise up when tightening down the other end. So, I bedded it to give it an even, stable platform to help reduce any potential stress later on.

To prep my stock, in combination with relieving at least a 1/16" layer of wood everywhere, I coated the action in hi spot blue and sat it down on the pillars (not glued in yet) to make sure the only places the action was touching was the pillars. I wanted to use them as the reference height since they are machined to correct length. I pillar bedded at the same time as bedding the action, with steel lumley arms pillars that came machined to the correct length. Everything went smoothly, except when I sat the action down into the bedding, one of the guide screws caught on the bottom metal and pushed it out, so some bedding material got underneath and caused the bottom metal to sit slightly proud, but not by much at all. This also caused a very thin layer of bedding to get between the action and pillars, which seems to have chipped out in the very center where the action would be resting. Overall, I think it turned out pretty well.

I noticed that my action is actually sitting slightly canted in the stock, with the bolt side being a touch higher. I can also see this when looking through the bottom of the action screw holes in the stock to the screw holes in the action. I attached a picture of it. If you look at the bolt raceways, you can see that the bolt side sits slightly higher in comparison to the top line of the stock. Not by much, but it's noticeable.

I decided to get a forster coax cartridge and case inspector the other day, and built a tool with the dial indicator and mounting rod to measure the amount of stress within my bedding job. I also attached a picture of this. It's a basic wood block that mounts to the barrel with a set screw for the barrel and the dial indicator rod. I measured the stress from the bottom of the fore end and the side. I did this with both action screws torqued to 42 in/lbs. I loosened one screw watching the dial, then tightened it. Then I loosened the other screw while watching the dial. I held the rifle at the 1 oclock position as recommended by nathan, and I also did the test holding the rifle horizontally. From the rear action screw being loosened, there was only a 0.0005" deflection. From the front action screw being loosened, there was only 0.0012" deflection. Pretty good, I'd say!! I really did expect there to be a lot more after seeing that my action is slightly canted.

I did shoot it the other day for some load development, but it was in absolutely terrible conditions (couldn't find a comfortable place to shoot prone, there is also a spring gnat hatch happening and I could barely breathe without inhaling them), so needless to say, it was not productive and my shooting was terrible. So, I plan to go out again this weekend with more time and more comfortable conditions to really concentrate on shooting well.

I am wondering about the canted action.... wouldn't this cause issues?

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1GgaASvcBW-Nm2k9CaWJcmTCm8RhBeTVV
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Gr2LcozQlvF21gViF_y4MuKSGZ9u-wQf
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1GeooRZpJUPR-jzqZp14POhve4PX1DkxM
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1GscdFK_X_Z6cxcQYxulENgwMUf_b5wRt
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1H3hh5CKZBGd1tRACbO-j0N91dTuV98X4

Replies

01 May 2020
@ 12:32 pm (GMT)

Ryan Tockstein

Re: Canted action in my T3x bedding job




01 May 2020
@ 10:48 pm (GMT)

Paul Leverman

Re: Canted action in my T3x bedding job
Re: your measurements of stock movement. The tool is rated at 0.001" increments, so it is possible to interpret the .0005" reading. However, how did you determine the .0012"? Just wondering if the readings should indeed be "0.005" and "0.012" . Big difference when talking movement in the barrel/stock.
02 May 2020
@ 03:33 am (GMT)

Ryan Tockstein

Re: Canted action in my T3x bedding job
Quote:
Re: your measurements of stock movement. The tool is rated at 0.001" increments, so it is possible to interpret the .0005" reading. However, how did you determine the .0012"? Just wondering if the readings should indeed be "0.005" and "0.012" . Big difference when talking movement in the barrel/stock.


Yes, if looking at a description of the forster tool it will say 0.001 measurements. But if you look closely at the dial face in the picture, each increment is 0.001, which leaves the ten thousandth decimal place up to estimation. It looked to be just over 0.001 deflection.
02 May 2020
@ 08:48 am (GMT)

Jonathan Kitterman

Re: Canted action in my T3x bedding job
How does it shoot?
02 May 2020
@ 03:59 pm (GMT)

Paul Leverman

Re: Canted action in my T3x bedding job
Estimation is fine, do it all the time. One just has to be careful that the accuracy of the internal threads is up to the task. It's kind of the same with the digital scale discussion. When the specs say +/- .1 grains, that relates to a .2 discrepancy.

The real test will be in the targets. Keep us in the loop, will be interesting to see the results.

I have a theory about the cant, but it isn't widely accepted. (People actually asked if I was "challenged"). So, I'll let someone else do that one.
02 May 2020
@ 08:59 pm (GMT)

Warwick Marflitt

Re: Canted action in my T3x bedding job
Ryan....
Buy some Federal Blue Box ammo and shoot it. Lie on a tarp, take your time, get comfortable and shoot over a bag at 100yards and see what it will do? Remember "It's not a problem until it is a Problem. Don't invent issues and complexities. Test intelligently for any issues! Then only worry if and when you find, see, prove that any are there..... If it is grind it out and do it again... It is what it is..... Keep calm and reload....

Paul it's nothing that a Cow Bell won't fix........
04 May 2020
@ 12:21 pm (GMT)

Ryan Tockstein

Re: Canted action in my T3x bedding job
Quote:
Estimation is fine, do it all the time. One just has to be careful that the accuracy of the internal threads is up to the task. It's kind of the same with the digital scale discussion. When the specs say +/- .1 grains, that relates to a .2 discrepancy.

The real test will be in the targets. Keep us in the loop, will be interesting to see the results.

I have a theory about the cant, but it isn't widely accepted. (People actually asked if I was "challenged"). So, I'll let someone else do that one.


What's your theory on can't, Paul? I love things that aren't widely accepted.
04 May 2020
@ 12:34 pm (GMT)

Ryan Tockstein

Re: Canted action in my T3x bedding job
I went out today to shoot, and here's a picture of the target. I don't think that it is or would be a problem, but my shooting abilities are definitely not good, so it's hard to say from pictures of my target whether or not it's an issue. Because they are not wildly horrible, I would say it's okay.

These are all handloads. Ignore me center bull on the Target. That is mainly fouler's, but there are two shots there about half inch apart that I would consider good.

Each bull is a different charge. I think I'll repeat the top right group, and maybe the bottom left and top left. The top right Group is only three shots, and the group is actually smaller than what it looks due to the way the paper is torn. I'd say it's about a quarter inch group.

Something to know, is that I I'm only about a year in to shooting high recoiling centerfire rifles four groups oh, and I had been attempting to let the rifle free recoil without my left hand touching the gun in any way. Sometimes I would have good results, but it was really inconsistent. So, after reading up on Nathan's books, this is the first shooting I've done utilizing my slang in a prone position on sandbags. I would say with more practice doing this, the results will be great. So, the bottom left-hand top left targets are due to shooter are, I believe.

04 May 2020
@ 12:35 pm (GMT)

Ryan Tockstein

Re: Canted action in my T3x bedding job
I don't understand why I can't post a picture in line with the text.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1H96lc4Cp8AVsmMtcAfhchKMviv7yDihS/view?usp=drivesdk
04 May 2020
@ 02:48 pm (GMT)

Scott Struif

Re: Canted action in my T3x bedding job
I don't see how a minute cant of the barreled action relative to the stock could matter, unless torqing the action screws stresses the action. No different than a scope mounted slightly off level. Nobody could shoulder the rifle perfectly level - you have to rely on your eye to level the reticle. It's pretty well established that those leveling devices for scope mounting are a waste of money. The barrel is round, so a slight cant won't affect its accuracy.
04 May 2020
@ 04:18 pm (GMT)

Ryan Tockstein

Re: Canted action in my T3x bedding job
Cant of the action could be an issue, even if there is no stress when action screws are torqued. Take the parallel/vertical sidewalls of some of the Sako and Tikka actions. Nathan recommends taping off vertical sidewalls of actions when bedding (if you're not confident in being able to go back and relieve them by hand with sanding) because they can cause pinch points that prevent. An action from being able to return to battery. So, let's say you're shooting and you have your action plumb and level, and the action is canted in the stock bedding. Then, one of your vertical sidewalls that was relieved is now a acting somewhat as a ceiling because the vertical motion of the action during recoil will be running into the sidewall of the bedding. But then again, even with a perfect bedding job on a Tikka 595, you could not have the rifle plumb and still shoot good groups at 100... Surely people that shoot those rifles in 0.25" groups at 100 don't have the rifle 100% plumb.

At least, that's the way I see it when thinking about it. But, my main concern was that it would cause stress when torquing the action screws if the alignment of the bottom metal and stock weren't compensating for that off angle. I made myself feel better with the bedding stress deflection tool I made!!

Anyway, it shot a little better than I expected, considering I'm new to the way I shot today and the action isn't level to the stock. So I was pleasantly surprised. Hopefully it gets even better with practice with my sling and foreend hold!
04 May 2020
@ 06:26 pm (GMT)

Anders Österberg

Re: Canted action in my T3x bedding job
Hello
If the cant is so much that the screws touching the wood i ther holes you got a problem...

Test if you easily can screw in the screws , ther can not be any binding at all , the screws must be totaly free from contact with the stock.

The other issue...
It looks that you have bedded the action with the recoillug in the stock ...?
This is not good ... ! , you get beddingmaterial between the recoillug and the action.

About pictures..
If you paste the link between it should appear as a picture.
04 May 2020
@ 11:01 pm (GMT)

Paul Leverman

Re: Canted action in my T3x bedding job
Black and white targets only. Fluorescents work by scattering the returning light waves. What your eyes see is not a truly sharp image. Worse with magnification.

Three shot groups. As discussed in the books.

Technique. See above.

Cant: as Scott said. Barrel doesn't know up from down. Return to battery is just that. There will be movement, there has to be, but return and repeatability is the key. If there are pinch points, get rid of them.

Opinion: If you bedded the action with proper clearance on the sidewalls, it probably isn't possible to stress the action so much that they would contact the bed. Insulating tape is about .004". It would take a great deal of torque to "twist" a six inch action to that extent. (Think how much torque it takes to ruin an action when you are trying to remove a barrel.)

Disclaimer: first coffee, 3am

05 May 2020
@ 12:25 am (GMT)

Ryan Tockstein

Re: Canted action in my T3x bedding job
Quote:
Hello
If the cant is so much that the screws touching the wood i ther holes you got a problem...

Test if you easily can screw in the screws , ther can not be any binding at all , the screws must be totaly free from contact with the stock.

The other issue...
It looks that you have bedded the action with the recoillug in the stock ...?
This is not good ... ! , you get beddingmaterial between the recoillug and the action.

About pictures..
If you paste the link between it should appear as a picture.


No contact is happening with the screw holes. And, there isn't bedding compound on the lug. I attached that to the action before bedding just the way it's done in the book. It just looks like there's epoxy on it because the lug is dark colored
05 May 2020
@ 12:30 am (GMT)

Ryan Tockstein

Re: Canted action in my T3x bedding job
Quote:
Black and white targets only. Fluorescents work by scattering the returning light waves. What your eyes see is not a truly sharp image. Worse with magnification.

Three shot groups. As discussed in the books.

Technique. See above.

Cant: as Scott said. Barrel doesn't know up from down. Return to battery is just that. There will be movement, there has to be, but return and repeatability is the key. If there are pinch points, get rid of them.

Opinion: If you bedded the action with proper clearance on the sidewalls, it probably isn't possible to stress the action so much that they would contact the bed. Insulating tape is about .004". It would take a great deal of torque to "twist" a six inch action to that extent. (Think how much torque it takes to ruin an action when you are trying to remove a barrel.)

Disclaimer: first coffee, 3am



I hope that holds true here!

They're actually 2 shot groups/strings. I shot 2, let it cool. I just usually load 4 of each charge in case I tank one.
05 May 2020
@ 06:39 am (GMT)

Warwick Marflitt

Re: Canted action in my T3x bedding job
Pictures are easy using Imgur https://imgur.com/upload

Open Imgur.com......Browse......choose file......upload......Mouse over uploaded image......Hover on the > Behind the word COPY > ....A drop down box will open.......Click on GET SHARE LINKS........ Click on
BBCode(FORUMS) Blue COPY Box......... come to this post page right click in the YOUR MESSAGE box and paste..... Done





New Zealand Movie
05 May 2020
@ 06:42 am (GMT)

Warwick Marflitt

Re: Canted action in my T3x bedding job
05 May 2020
@ 06:45 am (GMT)

Ryan Tockstein

Re: Canted action in my T3x bedding job
05 May 2020
@ 06:47 am (GMT)

Ryan Tockstein

Re: Canted action in my T3x bedding job
https://imgur.com/a/q5YAyZX
05 May 2020
@ 08:59 am (GMT)

Warwick Marflitt

Re: Canted action in my T3x bedding job
05 May 2020
@ 09:04 am (GMT)

Warwick Marflitt

Re: Canted action in my T3x bedding job
05 May 2020
@ 03:11 pm (GMT)

Paul Leverman

Re: Canted action in my T3x bedding job
Ok, Warwick. Just to clarify: those illustrations show the correct alignment of bore and scope (1st); the second represents a scope mounted to an off-centre axis parallel to the bore; the third represents one of my mounting jobs.

In the scenarios #2 & #3, both can be corrected easily. You just have to change the their axial relationships. If you use two points, one in the exact centre of the bore and the other at the intersection of the cross-hairs, and join them with a line (mathematics states that two points must be co-linear), and then rotate the rifle until the line is perpendicular, the rifle will shoot like it should (after re-setting the scope to proper horizontal/vertical planes). It will just look like I was the last person to work on it.

New disclaimer: way past bed time. Good night, all.
11 May 2020
@ 02:41 pm (GMT)

Ryan Tockstein

Re: Canted action in my T3x bedding job
I did my second round of testing over the weekend. It went well, and I don't think there's any issues with my bedding job. I definitely have a couple of accurate loads in the mix. I think any double grouping that appears in the targets is due to my error; probably inconsistent tension in the sling or in my grip. I already relieved vertical sidewalls in the bedding as well as just in front of the recoil lug and receiver where the barrel forms the rear (butt stock) facing 45 degree slope in the bedding.

I also am not sure how many rounds my barrel can go before losing accuracy, or how many rounds it takes to foul and shoot well because I had been cleaning it free of carbon and copper (w/ foam cleaner) after every session (20 rounds). So, I cleaned it to bare steel at the 226 round mark and did a throat polish with the maroon 3M pad and then a patch with JB's. So, part of these targets is trying to establish how many rounds my barrel will hold accuracy for. After practicing the technique of using the sling and a firm fore end hold, I feel like I can shoot consistently enough to determine this.

The green and white target is the first 13 rounds. They are mainly foulers, fireforming loads, and the start of establishing my barrel's accuracy round count and how long it takes to get it fouled to shoot well. I shot the groups top bull to bottom bull, not letting the barrel get hot. So I didn't actually do these shots in 4 or 5 shot strings. Usually 2 or 3, cool. 2 or 3 cool. I used the best load from my last round of testing, 60.4gr powder. The runout on all these rounds is around 0.0015 or 0.002, with one or two of them being at 0.003. So, even though these are unfired brass, I think they'd still be plenty accurate rounds and will serve the purpose I intend here.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1NU5Ji0tqJwbiKDijdHp3pefokiB9wAtX

The orange targets are further load testing along with a control group (the 60.4gr load) thrown in at the end to establish whether or not the barrel was holding accuracy through the testing. I think the 62.4gr load will be good. Shot #3 was poorly executed... the trigger broke unexpectedly and I jumped quite a bit.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1NVj0g6-mMPClMFylndH5w74rHVWkpm4T
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1NZJwDPaSoLaIl-jnZWMbjmyYThaq5zwz
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1NhN_Ylb4muZV6OJfZN42CCZCKlMehZfs
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1NW1AdVMDRh23JgX95-3U_l_pMD17s8hx
 

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