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> 9,3x62
9,3x62
@ 02:50 am (GMT) |
Paolo ConsalviI hunt wild boars in the woods with a 9.3x62 and RWS DK 225 ball.As Nathan Foster has already written, often, this ball does not stop animals on the spot unless you hit a bone even though it is quite fast. How can you do to have hydrostatic shock: it seems to be better to return to the good old 30-06 with an RN or SST ball. Any experience from the field? Tips? Thank you all |
Replies
@ 07:58 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: 9,3x62Hi Paulo, you could try the Geco ballistic tip style bullet. I have been monitoring readers who are using it and it does open up fast and shed weight, dumping a great deal of energy. This may help to limit dead runs depending on how adrenalised the pigs are.Yes, you are quite correct in your assertions. Bullet design is such a significant factor. |
@ 01:34 pm (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: 9,3x62Hi Paolo. If you don't mind slogging through some shit, there's a guy, Fernando Cundin, who posted some interesting stuff about pigs in a topic below entitled, "Ad nauseam question." He uses a 30-06 with some unusual handloads - flatnose Sierras, for example. |
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@ 07:04 am (GMT) |
Paolo ConsalviRe: 9,3x62When hunting in the woods, with the help of dogs, at semi-automatic distances between 2 and 20 meters, a semi-automatic carbine is usually preferred for a shot that can be quickly repeated. The reset cycle is rather brutal and the bullet could come out of the cartridge case due to the inertial mass. The balls must therefore have a crimp groove.A .366 vulcan (232 grains) does not have a groove and moves after a few cycles even if we use a factory crimp die. The choice is therefore unfortunately rather limited. However, the shot animals make the typical lament of the pig that suffers and I don't like this. A 50 kg boar hit by a 30 caliber FN ball (typically used for 30-30) shot by a 30-06, ran the same distance as an 80 kg one hit by 9.3 (with an exit hole of about 8 cm); the FN ball did not pass the animal but I was not able to find it in the boar. |
@ 07:35 am (GMT) |
Fernando CundinRe: 9,3x62I believe the excited state of the game makes a difference. When hunting pigs with dogs we would have to approach very close with lever 44 rem's and carefully avoid the equally excited dogs. Head shots were preferred otherwise two body shots were needed to anchor scattering pigs. Fast repeat shots were needed…These days I am only stalking swamp pigs and selecting medium 65-80 lbs. pigs that are mostly calm. If offered an open shot I have the luxury of good placement into the neck. Considering things large pissed off European boar up close is perhaps another matter. It would take more energy I believe than the 2500 fps. with Sierra FP’s to definitively stop a large tough boar with one body shot. The suggestion by N. Foster sounds like the right direction. |
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@ 08:19 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: 9,3x62And down the rabbit hole we go. OK, lets do some checks.1. The first issue is that chamber reamer specs can differ widely to ammo specs and die specs for the 9.3. This is a very unfortunate situation with errors gradually increasing over time. In some instances, a rifle may produce misfires because the ammo is too small for the chamber. This is not uncommon. I have for the last six months or so been trying to relay some of this info back to manufacturers to try and close the gap (and once again with the help and guidance of Dave Manson). A secondary issue can be that the neck area of a chamber may be very wide (also common issue in 8x57). When reloading fired cases, if there is a great deal of spring back, it is possible that the neck may not be sized small enough to achieve optimum tension. It can therefore be worth trying to size cases without the button or with the button altered (provided you have a spare in case you make a mistake). Having said this, the downside of sizing to minimal specs in a max chamber is that you risk overworking the brass. Such techniques may also cause major concentricity issues. However, short of altering the chamber, the hand loader may have no other choice. Increased neck tension and or crimping (even on non-cannelure bullets) may help this. 2. Good magazine spring tension can stop some movement (bullets being pushed in). A small hollow point and a dollop of silicone can also help the likes of the Vulcan being pushed in. But as suggested, these fixes relate to the bullet being pushed in, not out. 3. Regarding bullet design vs shot placement and reactions. Velocity and or very rapid expansion is required to cause a concussion wave at the ribs which then travels up to the spine. The upper (forward) thoracic spine is most susceptible to concussion. The forward section of the chest also contains the major nerve ganglia. Therefore, it is possible to obtain a direct or indirect effect on the nerves provided shot placement is sound, velocity is sufficient and energy is sufficient for a given body weight. Adrenalin does however effect the nervous response (resting animal will react differently to driven animal). The forward section of the chest also contains the supportive bones (front legs) and locomotive muscles. A forward shoulder shot will break the shoulder, destroy the muscles of the legs, break the ribs, display possible spinal spinal concussion, destroy the forward most nerve ganglia of the thoracic cavity, destroy the arterial system of the thoracic cavity. In other words, the animal will go straight down with a forward shoulder shot. If shots strike more towards the rear of the lungs, concussion or any other form of nervous response may be absent. if the shot strikes low, reactions may also be absent. Under such conditions, maximum hydraulic force and mechanical wounding are key factors (simply - large internal wounds). A large wound may still allow a dead run, but hopefully very short. Unfortunately, shot placement is an ideal. We try but do not always succeed. This brings us back to your questions on bullet performance and the fact that you are trying to obtain a fast kill for both the sake of the animal and ease of tracking. On pigs, it is possible to experience extremes in results. If a male boar has a heavy shield, the shield may cause the bullet to dump its energy immediately which can be very useful. This can allow us to use a very tough bullet and still achieve good / immediate energy transfer. On the other hand, the shield may soak up energy. If the bullet is extremely soft or has low energy potential to begin with, the shield may either 1. prevent any form of spinal concussion, allowing a long dead run regardless of good internal wounding or 2. Simply rob the energy of the bullet, resulting in minimal wounding (e.g .243 Win, 6.5 Creedmoor). As a contrast to all of this, if the bullet strikes behind the shield (or pig without a shield) it may meet less that optimal resistance. Under these conditions, a bullet like the .30 cal 180gr Norma Oryx or some copper wonder pill may just zip through without causing a high level of physical trauma, causing what I call a long dead run. An example of a shield soaking up energy can be seen in one of my videos in which I shoot a large boar with a 175gr DRT bullet. The shield absorbs a good deal of the bullet energy, preventing spinal concussion. The pig runs, but internal wounding is very good and he soon bleeds out. The shield only runs just behind the shoulder. Smaller pigs and females have no shield. Therefore, the performance of one bullet can differ widely on pigs depending on shot placement and pig sex and size. For those wanting an ultimate fix, the key is to go heavy, but very soft. A lot of problems are resolved at a bullet weight of about 200 grains, utilizing a very thin jacket. This helps to level out issues with impact velocities, pig weights, shield vs rib shot placement. That is not to say that this is the only fix. For example, the .308 168gr ELD-M can work quite well in a lot of situations. No doubt as I type this, forum member Bob Mavin is contemplating his next hunt with this load (Bob aims well forwards). Its a good combo. That aside, if you want to maximize your odds, high energy (weight) helps to provide uniformity. But it needs to be combined with fast energy transfer if dealing with a very wide range of variables. Pig with .300 Mag 175gr DRT: https://youtu.be/GSKAZrv0aBI Pig with .308 168gr A-MAX / ELD-M: https://youtu.be/k7MwLfr49Mk OK, hope that helps a bit. |
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@ 10:42 am (GMT) |
Paolo ConsalviRe: 9,3x62Statistically, in my small experience, the ball that does not allow the pig to go a long distance is the 165 grains SST, .308. Half of this bullet fragments and the other half passes through the body.In very short barrels (51-53 cm) a high energy powder such as URP is necessary for a high speed especially if we use a ball of fairly heavy weight such as 180 grains, always in 30. Going back to 9.3x62 and reading your always exhaustive answers, I can confirm that the vulcan has a diameter equal to 9.25-9.26 mm. The DK for example has a diameter of 9.3. Having said that, not finding (for reloading) the GECO express bullets, as suggested, I would like to evaluate the two rather expensive options such as the 250 RN (bonded) WL and the 184 grain RWS tin ball, although the sectional density it is a bit low. The latter ball should probably partially fragment like the SST or GECO EXPRESS. There is good talk of the 270 grain SPEER but it does not have the crimping cannelure. As for dies I use RCBS using standard crimping: the ball does not come out even after several attempts with the kinetic hammer. The cartridge chamber is verified by inspection bodies (external to the manufacturer) particularly zealous in the use of GO-NO GO gauges. |
@ 06:53 am (GMT) |
Michael SeagerRe: 9,3x62Would it be worth trying a 250 gr Accubond?With something like Lovex S062 you should be getting velocities + 2,500fps At the ranges you are discussing it should open well I'd have thought. Also has a groove for a crimp. Mike |
@ 12:25 pm (GMT) |
Magnus VassbotnRe: 9,3x62I have looked at 4-5 carcasses of 80-100 kg red deer shot at short range with the Accubond 250 at 2500 fps, and there have been serious damage. Close to fist size holes through the shoulder/ spine area. If those are representative, it looks like a quick killing load at such impact velocities. |
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@ 12:04 am (GMT) |
Paolo ConsalviRe: 9,3x62I have read Nathan Foster's article very carefully regarding the 9,3x62 caliber. If I understand correctly the 250 grain Nosler Accubond should be used for animals weighing at least 90 kg; also the impact speed should be at least 2400 fps, being a bonded ball.With S062 powder (but also with other single base powders or without much nitroglycerin), remaining safe with the average pressure, in a 22" barrel, the QL program calculates about 2350 fps at the muzzle: it could be quite good for short distances. The stabilization coefficient with 14" twist is greater than 1.5 and it is fine. I think I will often shoot animals with an average weight of 60 kg, a little low but I think it is worth trying to try. I have also tried the GECO PLUS (bonded) with considerable barrel coppering also Nathan recommends them for animals weighing about 400 kg. I also removed the EVO GREEN from the list, which seems unsuitable for wild boar shot at a short distance. |
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@ 08:19 pm (GMT) |
Paolo ConsalviRe: 9,3x62Following your advice, I assembled cartridges with the 250 grain nosler accubond, 35 mm long. The powder is the N135.The OAL is 82mm and I used the factory crimp. We will see if it will be mechanically stable in the semi-automatic rifle. |
@ 04:43 pm (GMT) |
Warwick MarflittRe: 9,3x62Try some of the bullets you already have loaded backwards...... You have nothing to loose trying? |
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@ 08:22 pm (GMT) |
Paolo ConsalviRe: 9,3x62Bullets with a ballistic tip have a thicker base and hide a cavity behind the tip to facilitate expansion.Without considering terminal ballistics, what could happen to a plastic tip and its hole if we subject them to high chamber pressure? Any experience from this point of view? |
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@ 09:17 pm (GMT) |
Warwick MarflittRe: 9,3x62What does it matter? Load some up and shoot them.... Your wanting something for in close that will open and destroy vitals with a quick humane departure from this world. What the front does now it's at the back is a bit of a mute point. It will either work or it won't? A correctly placed, flat frontal bullet, at the proper speed in close quarters just might have the required Splatter-gory characteristics that the Pigs Not angry enough to absorb! Think of it as being a bit like using dynamite to catch fish or as my mates dad did going Grenade fishing during WWII in Italy. He said the trout where yummy....We call it Kiwi Ingenuity. Others would say that where F*%king mad!!! Or try a 458 WinMag.... |
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@ 09:19 pm (GMT) |
Warwick MarflittRe: 9,3x62If your worried pull the plastic tip and solder up the hole..... |
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@ 11:29 pm (GMT) |
Magnus VassbotnRe: 9,3x62Hi.At the current stage of my on going Brush Gun Test project, I've been shooting a few bullets backwards. Due to balance point forwards, they are highly stable and performing very well through brush, but feeding is terrible in most rifle/ load combos (ok in the Marlin 1895). So in most cases I believe backwards bullets will need some degree of nose (tail) modifications in order to have any practical application, apart from in single shots/ double rifles. As mentioned further up, based on the few cases I have seen of the AB 250 on deer, I think you probably have a very effective load for short/ normal ranges. My friends who have used this bullet have gotten good velocities with Vihtavuori N540 (better than N140), so there might be a bit more potential than in N135, if you can get hold of it. Magnus |
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@ 02:17 am (GMT) |
Paolo ConsalviRe: 9,3x62Thank you for every suggestion: AB has a boat tail. I certainly can't have a rifle jammed when the boar decides to come on you. But I also have a knife with a 180 mm blade at my side to avoid learning to climb trees very quickly ....Thanks guys for your patience and always thanks to Nathan who allows us to learn using his website. |
@ 08:12 pm (GMT) |
dennis phillipsRe: 9,3x62Hi PaoloI purchased a Begara 9.3x62 and used the Geco Express factory ammo following Nathans advice for my first Samar Deer hunt and can report very good results with this combination. I shot 4 Samba Deer with this load 1 Stag in the neck at 183 meters which went down on the spot without even kicking this Stag would have been something like 300kg. 2 Spikes running approximately 80 - 100 meters these Deer are the size of a 2 year old Red Stag 1 was hit in the ball joint and the bullet went through the shoulder blade on the opposite side and a Fawn at 80 meters who's Mother was shot by poachers which was about the size of a Fallow Doe. All three wear hit forward in the shoulder and did a little jump and went down without even twitching an ear. I was very impressed with this bullet in the 9.3 especially with the balance of rapid expansion on the lighter animals and good penetration on the bigger animals resulting in 4 rapid humain kills. I believe you would be very happy with this ammo. If you read the Norma Catalog rather than their on line info you will fined the Valcan bullet is designed to have slightly delayed expansion followed by fragmentation you might fined on the smaller Pigs the expansion happens to late in this caliber hence the big whole on the opposite side but the delayed kill. |
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