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Forum Index > Rifles general discussion > Am I the Guy Looking the Gift Horse in the Mouth?

Am I the Guy Looking the Gift Horse in the Mouth?

12 Feb 2020
@ 03:31 pm (GMT)

Joshua Mayfield

I need some good counsel and my wife is completely disinterested in this topic.

A friend of mine who has a Concealed Carry and Defensive Tactics shooting school is expanding his operation. He is building a 500+ yard rifle range beside his pistol and rimfire range. He is conducting an inaugural Precision Rifle class in a couple of months, free of charge to six hand selected friends. I was not one of the original six but am flattered that when one of them canceled I was invited to take the spot. His purpose is to conduct the course, collect evaluations from the participants, and use them in developing the course to market openly moving forward.

My initial reaction was "Heck yes!" My friend sent me the email that includes the equipment list for the day. Specifically, the volume of rounds has raised a couple questions for me. The course is classroom in the morning, range in the afternoon. The schedule shows three hours range time. The equipment list says 200 rounds of match grade ammo. I've been known to take close to three hours to work through 20 rounds. That includes some time-eaters that would not factor in under this format, but here are the questions that I have...

1. Am I going to cook my barrel if I shoot 200 rounds in three hours? My only rifle that would fit the parameters for the course is my .30-06. The barrel is medium contour chrome-moly.

2. If I do go and shoot a high volume of rounds what to I need to plan on beyond normal cleaning to care for the bore properly?

3. If I go, what sort of rounds should I load? My first thought is that burning through my hunting rounds that I'm currently testing and developing may not be the best use of time or resources. It seems like a bucket of 168 gr. Amax loads would be better than shooting through my 195 gr. Sierra TMKs. I have had terrific accuracy before with the 168 and H414. Would it be advisable to think lighter than that, even?

I'm not exactly the proverbial "One Rifle Man" but I'm closer to that than having an arsenal. I would hate to pass on the chance to participate in this class and try to help my friend expand his business in the best way possible. But I can't wreck my barrel either. Your advice is appreciated.

Replies

13 Feb 2020
@ 04:32 am (GMT)

Paul Leverman

Re: Am I the Guy Looking the Gift Horse in the Mouth?
My personal opinion: First, I think you are right about your barrel. That's a lot of heat. And when do you cool it and clean it? 200rounds in three hours? That's more than a round a minute. Second, see if he has loaner rifles. Or just ask him if you could use his. Maybe this isn't set up for hunting rifles. Maybe he expects participants to have barrels that resemble (what my shooting partners call mine) "axles". Third, voice your concerns to him, and see if you can participate in the theory end of it, and to a minor extent, the range aspect. If he is truly interested in feedback, he should take note of your concerns, and apply them before the course even starts.

Keep us in the loop. It will be interesting to see what his responses are.
13 Feb 2020
@ 07:17 am (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: Am I the Guy Looking the Gift Horse in the Mouth?
Hi Josh, this 'going to nam' type of set up is common now. It may well be the other end of the horse that you are looking at. Paul has more constructive comments than I have to offer sorry.
13 Feb 2020
@ 01:57 pm (GMT)

Joshua Mayfield

Re: Am I the Guy Looking the Gift Horse in the Mouth?
Good thoughts, Paul. Thank you.
Nathan, for what it's worth, I view the Foster wit as underrated. Quite barbed and dry at times, but definitely underrated.

I dialogue some with my friend about the class. The idea of sitting in on the classroom time, if that would be helpful to him, is of interest. But I am not going to try to shoot that many rounds in that time frame.
13 Feb 2020
@ 02:39 pm (GMT)

Caleb Mayfield

Re: Am I the Guy Looking the Gift Horse in the Mouth?
I am curious what type of class it will be and if you will actually shoot that many rounds.

One type of PR Class I've seen is essentially a few hours of class time learning how to use estimate target size and range with your reticle, develop ballistic charts, and so forth, then you go to the range and everyone sets up on a firing line and the instructor walks everyone through zeroing, and verifying ballistics by shooting at two known ranges. Then you start trying to range various targets on the field and hit them. Depending on how you do you might only really shoot 100-120 rounds. Possibly less. But, if you are having issues you could also end up shooting all 200. The Action Pistol league I went to in Minnesota was like that. They told the newer guys to bring 200 rounds. We rarely ever used more than 120, but a couple nights we used 200. Some guys used close to 250.

I would love to participate in a class like that.

On the other hand, if it's as Nathan said and it's a "going to Nam" type PRC, meh. That could easily use all 200 rounds and at a rate that would take a lot of life out of your rifle. For the sake of helping out your friend I wish we were closer. I've got a couple rifle options and the ammo for them that you could use.
13 Feb 2020
@ 04:07 pm (GMT)

Paul Leverman

Re: Am I the Guy Looking the Gift Horse in the Mouth?
A quote from the Book series comes to mind. "...it's not a freakin' Iraqi wedding".

From Caleb's post, it seems the instructor took notes from the Practical Guide book series. Just another Johnny-come-late.


13 Feb 2020
@ 05:24 pm (GMT)

Warwick Marflitt

Re: Am I the Guy Looking the Gift Horse in the Mouth?
I say take your range finder< Drop charts and 30-06 rifle. Range the target.... set turrets and bullseye every one. He wont have 200 different targets and if he does well shoot at the middle one and three others plus the furthermost one a few times. Clean your barrel pack up and watch the others results!!! How many times do you get to shoot at the same Deer?
Whats the reason for the course? I reckon you'll need 30 rounds max......
You may be better off finishing your load development and drop charts if you haven't yet.... Everything you need to succeed is in Nathans Books. Including the barbed humor......Good luck and enjoy....
13 Feb 2020
@ 05:28 pm (GMT)

Warwick Marflitt

Re: Am I the Guy Looking the Gift Horse in the Mouth?
Oh and I forgot to say. You might be better off taking your wife out for an adventure of her choosing......
14 Feb 2020
@ 12:01 am (GMT)

Hamish Gibbs

Re: Am I the Guy Looking the Gift Horse in the Mouth?
Hey Joshua I reckon Warwick has a point, if he is truly after evaluation and feedback then take your 20 or 30 rounds and let your groups do the talking (oh sorry I thought 200 was a missprint, why that many, I don't want to cook my barrel?). Who's to say there is only one course one curriculum in the future? I guess getting opportunities at a 500 yard range is pretty cool on its own?
14 Feb 2020
@ 12:01 am (GMT)

Hamish Gibbs

Re: Am I the Guy Looking the Gift Horse in the Mouth?
Hey Joshua I reckon Warwick has a point, if he is truly after evaluation and feedback then take your 20 or 30 rounds and let your groups do the talking (oh sorry I thought 200 was a missprint, why that many, I don't want to cook my barrel?). Who's to say there is only one course one curriculum in the future? I guess getting opportunities at a 500 yard range is pretty cool on its own?
02 Nov 2020
@ 09:32 am (GMT)

Joshua Mayfield

Re: Am I the Guy Looking the Gift Horse in the Mouth?
Reporting back on an old topic: My friends' course was postponed due to weather and the pandemic but we did it yesterday. Weather was picture perfect. Prior to the earlier postponements and after the discussion on this thread I did talk with my friend and he was clear that the round count would be considerably lower than 200 in a best-case scenario. It seemed that he wanted to give a high number to ensure no one showed up short, which I can understand as he is designing this course to be offered to unknown customers. My actual round count for the day was 41. It could have been 35 if I had just shot the minimum. I do believe that as the course is refined the round count will climb but I do not see how it could end up in triple digits without a major redesign.

The pros:
- Range time!
- Some good information. While most of the material was either redundant to or (in 2 or 3 specific points) contrary to instruction in the Practical book series there were a few items that were new to me. My friend has legit credentials and experience as a law enforcement sniper and instructor, so that is the angle he comes from. More on this in a bit.
- A little real practice working MIL and MOA formulas as well as wind drift calculations. While there was nothing in this part that was beyond what is in the Practical book series being given scenarios and having to work them on the spot was positive practice.
- A reminder that I've got a long way to go. I have some friends who, if I shoot with them, I leave thinking that I'm a marksman. There was a real marksman on the range yesterday and it was not me. That was a positive reminder.

The cons:
- The course, as it stands, is neither beginner nor advanced. It tries to straddle the line a bit and part of my feedback to my friend is that I believe he needs to go ahead and make this course the beginner course and either leave it at that or go on and develop an advanced session as well. I hope he develops an advanced course.
- As I said, my friend's background is as a law enforcement sniper. Not a bad thing at all, but there were a couple of points where I knew I would be shooting outside of his instruction because I try (thanks to Nathan) not to indulge or build habits that are not transferable to hunting. It was definitely a bipod and left hand under the butt-stock crowd. My pack stood out like a sore thumb on the range as I shot over it but nobody seemed offended.
- The ranging and wind calculations were all classroom. We got to the range and were told how far all targets were. My first suggestion to my friend is that he keep all ranges a secret until participants range them properly themselves.

All in all a great day. I wore the boonie hat proudly.
02 Nov 2020
@ 11:44 am (GMT)

Paul Leverman

Re: Am I the Guy Looking the Gift Horse in the Mouth?
It sounds like a good time was had by all. And good on you for not conforming. They may not have been offended, but I'm sure some had their eyes on you.
 

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