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Forum Index > Rifles general discussion > do i have a one of a kind?

do i have a one of a kind?

02 Apr 2019
@ 09:51 am (GMT)

john black

few months ago i bought a 94 winchester made in 1920 originally chambered in 32 win. somewhere along the line it was rebored to 30-35, where a 30-30 case is necked up to 35 cal and designated as a 35-30. HOWEVER, i discovered that when said 35-30 is fired it comes out with a shorted neck and a diff angle shoulder. i contacted the previous 2 owners and both had been firing 35-30 rds in it not noticing how they looked when ejected. many think it comes out a 35 rem but it does not. i contacted 2 reamer makers and sent them fired cases and one said he had a reamer design by PO ACKLEY for it but had never seen one in person. a slip of paper from the 1960s states it was converted by PO himself but theres no way to prove it. after months i can find no one that has this caliber so i have decided to call it the 35-30AI.
The guy i bought it from wants it back and is berating himself for letting it go. not happening. its in probably 98% condition with a peep sight and a hoot to shoot. My fun gun. I take a 30-30 case, neck it up to 35, fireform it and it becomes a 35-30 AI. NOT a 35-30 or 35 rem as most are saying until they see the pics of the fireformed cases.

Replies

07 Apr 2019
@ 02:17 am (GMT)

John D. Hays - New Mexico

Re: do i have a one of a kind?

Hi John,

Oddly enough I read your post as we stopped overnight on our way to Denver. We’re here in Trinidad. “Ackley-town.”

P.O. Ackley modified and experimented constantly with various firearms, and when finished with one it had to go somewhere to a new owner. He went through a lot of guns.

One of the experimental sequences he did was with the Winchester 94. The subject was cartridge case design and bolt thrust:

Quote:
Since the post-WWII years, if not before, there has been an ongoing argument concerning whether breech thrust (bolt thrust) is reduced by the improved case design. P.O. Ackley has certainly influenced the argument. The definition of an improved case is pretty simple. The case body is blown out to minimum body taper, which is described by Ackley as 0.0075 per inch taper. Shoulder angles between 28 and 45 degrees are normally considered to be improved, although it could be argued that any shoulder sharper than the original parent case is improved. Finally, an improved design allows the firing of a factory cartridge in order to fireform the brass for the new design.

…a method of recording breech trust was necessary in order to go beyond the somewhat subjective experiments that P.O. Ackley wrote about in Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders Vol. I. There Ackley used a Model 94 Winchester because, as he stated, “We often hear that the Winchester Model 1894 action was designed for low pressures and is an action which could be described as ‘weak.’” The purpose of his experiment with the ‘94 was to prove that the improved case design minimized bolt thrust; that the brass will support and contain some pressure; that oily chambers increase bolt thrust; and finally, the notion that actions are designed for specific pressure ranges is a fallacy.


http://weaponsman.com/?p=40076

https://gundigest.com/gear-ammo/ammunition/experimenting-with-bolt-thrust

John, maybe you have one of those. Whatever it is, it’s pretty cool.
07 Apr 2019
@ 02:59 am (GMT)

Paul Leverman

Re: do i have a one of a kind?
Good score, John.

Is there anyway you could post the fired case dimensions? A couple of reasons, the "32 Winchester" is also known as the 32-20 WCF, which for obvious reasons, would not end up like what you have. The "32 Winchester Special" (as a parent case) is more in line with what you are describing. The 35-30 wildcat did not change the parent case (30-30 or 32 Win Spec.) except for the neck size. By letting Parker have a go at it, it certainly would have a shorter neck and sharper angle. And way back in the middle of the last century, reboring barrels was quite common, as labour charges were more realistic.

In any case, you are right to hold on to this one. Nice to find a good shooter.
07 Apr 2019
@ 03:20 am (GMT)

john black

Re: do i have a one of a kind?
ok, not being an engineer heres what i measured it as:

OAL is 1.978
base to shoulder is 1.632
bottom of case above rim is 0.417
case below shoulder is 0.409.5
these measurement were taken awhile ago and saved to my laptop. at the suggestion of the previous owner i sent a fireformed case to some guy that has written 4-5 books on ackley, but never heard back from him. previous owner thought he would be real excited to get case with an explaination but i guess not. i have several pics of expanded neck 30-30 next to a fireformed case also that i could send to anyone as i don't think theres a way to post pics here.
07 Apr 2019
@ 05:57 am (GMT)

John D. Hays - New Mexico

Re: do i have a one of a kind?

John, here are instructions for posting photos in this forum:

https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Resources/Discussion+Forums/x_forum/29/thread/1586.html

Love to see this oddity.
07 Apr 2019
@ 10:25 am (GMT)

Paul Leverman

Re: do i have a one of a kind?
If it isn't an Ackley version, it is definitely an improved version. At around 4 thou per inch of taper, it's a little straighter than his norm, but there are some out there. It also seems a bit short, but that is a variable set by the owner or gunsmith.

What kind of brass do you have, and does it have a headstamp? It is probably your one of a kind, a previous owner's personal design.
07 Apr 2019
@ 11:22 am (GMT)

john black

Re: do i have a one of a kind?
do i have any brass? only fire formed from 30-30 brass. its a wildcat, no "original" brass exists. i have traced this gun back to 3 previous owners so far, all thought it was a 35-30. they all simply assumed it was a 35-30 and never looked at the fired brass. neck is much shorter than a 35-30 and shoulder angle different. i also got a homemade from the 60s neck expander die. very crude but works. there is a handwritten note from 60s owner stating it was rebored/chambered by PO to 35-30. doesn't say to 35-30 AI but obviously is. the owner of CH 4D, DAVE, was sent a brass and he said its definintely a 35-30 SOMETHING, and to call it whatever i want. another reamer maker, a Dave Manson was sent the diminsions by the previous owner and he said he has specs that match but has never made the reamer and spec sheet is labeled as a 35-30 AI. kinda makes you wonder because all the previous owners i have contacted are/were avid reloaders/collectors/shooters and basically all they could say was oops! they never shot it enough to resize the brass, just restuffed the low pressure fired case with powder and a bullet and a new primer and had at it. and it works. i'm on my 3rd firing of some brass and haven't resized any yet. i can't, i dont have a resizing die for it. doesn't need one. i bought a batch of 200 30-30 cases and neck sized em and fired em. loaded the fired brass and its ready to go again. chambers good.
10 Apr 2019
@ 12:28 am (GMT)

john black

Re: do i have a one of a kind?
CORRECTION......i DO neck size only the fired cases using a 35 rem die so the bullet will fit with the correct tension.
 

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