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> .270wsm build questions
.270wsm build questions
@ 02:13 pm (GMT) |
James KiehneHello, I have several questions revolving around a sheep gun I am planning to build soon. I'll try to run down what I am looking for and why I've made my choices so far. I want to set up a packable mountain gun with low enough recoil that i can spend serious range time with it without punishing my shoulder. After much research and soul searching .270 wsm with a 24ish inch barrel seems to be my best option. 6.5s just dont do it for me, I considered a 300wsm and really loaded with light for caliber bullets it would probably be the best option but it just doesnt seem like enough of a divergence from the 7 mag that I already own. I would much prefer a .270 win on a wood stock but I dont have the time or space to work my own stock so I'll save that build for later.I plan to design this gun around shooting 130 grain tsx bullets. I intend to use it mainly as a mid range >500 yard sheep gun and as such I want to run a bullet perfectly capable of blowing out shoulders and anchoring game before it can get to bluffs. Also I am a biologist and really want to foray into non toxic bullets, I've never met a person in real life who has been disappointed with the performance of barnes bullets. (I've seen plenty of online posts from disappointed customers and I am fully aware that these bullets are ineffective at slow speeds and must hit bone to be counted on at more than moderate ranges.) To accommodate long for weight copper bullets I intend to order reamers with longer than standard throats. A barnes rep also recommended a longer throat as their bullets tend to like a little extra freebore That brings the build to model 700 short action, mcmillan edge stock, ~24 inch 1 in 9 barrel. Here is where the questions begin. I know .270 wsms are already designed to use all the space the model 700 has to offer. I have looked into using a wyatt mbe-4 extended box mag to allow for longer coal but I dont know If it will be enough. Does anyone here have experience with extended throats in .270 wsm? If so, have you ever loaded for tsx bullets and how did they perform? How much longer is your throat, I am sure you designed your gun around vld performance, how does it do with those and how do they feed? I am open to other cartridges and may have to change my build all together if I cannot chamber the longer .270 wsms |
Replies
@ 08:36 pm (GMT) |
Garrett PasqualeRe: .270wsm build questionsHi James, sounds to me you need to purchase Nathan's book "the practical guide to long range hunting cartridges". the whole book series is like a bible of all things that go bang! I refer to them on a daily basis at the moment.Back to the 270, in my opinion your 7mm rem will do everything a 270 will and more. Not that I am a great fan of copper projectiles but you could load the 7mm with the 120 ttsx at 3450fps easily and achieve the same thing as the wsm. This would give you the opportunity to test this type of load out in the field to see if it works out to 500 yards. At the end of the day it is all about accuracy and doing right by the animal you are targeting and turning its lights off quick. Just one point of view and I am sure there will be others. Enjoy! |
@ 03:55 am (GMT) |
Bryan WebsterRe: .270wsm build questionsI would not consider TSX bullets for a long range shot when hunting big game unless you restrict your range to under 400 or so.Seriously consider use of 162 grain ELD-X Hornady or 160 grain Nosler paritions bullets in your 7mm Rem Magnum, or go to a 24 inch bbl in a light weight .270WSM using 150 grain Nosler Accubonds or Partitions Long shots in mountain sheep country are very likely going to involve lots of complex wind issues and a light bullet in my experience is not the way to go. In fact long shots on wild sheep should not be attempted in my opinion as wounding loss can devastate herds if several hunters think they can do that. More often they do not have the skill set needed. |
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@ 04:10 am (GMT) |
James KiehneRe: .270wsm build questionsBallisticly the 7 will do everything the .270 will and more out to longer ranges. Practicly what it wont do is get carried into the back country or through thick brush or be comfortable for extended range sessions (I will be adding a break to remedy that eventually). The point of this build is to set up a lightweight mid length gun that will be a little more maneuverable than my heavier longish 7. 500 as an upper limit for the. 270 is more generous than I would be likely to be in a real world shooting situation, if I went on a hunt believing I may have to send one to such ranges I would likely either opt to lug the heavy 7 or load the .270 with vlds and settle for a rear lung shot understanding the animal would be able to cover a little distance before it stopped. I usually practice with my 7 out to 800 and have only once fired past 200 in the field. |
@ 06:45 am (GMT) |
Thomas KitchenRe: .270wsm build questionsHI James and welcome to the forum.Is your quest to use lead free bullets for an animal, yours or a pen pushers sake. Drt is the only lead free bullet I'll use As for caliber if your dead set on a short action look into the 7rsaum On a side note one of the forum members shoots what would be considered a mountain weight 7mm practical very accurately how does follows the techniques laid out in Nathans book and practice practice practice As others have stated your probably best to try and get the best out of your 7mm rem mag, believe or not there's this good bugger that's written something like 5 books that walks you through the process |
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@ 11:08 am (GMT) |
James KiehneRe: .270wsm build questionsI will continue to shake the 7mm rsaum Down, I was thinking it had a steeper shoulder angle than the wsm but it looks like it may be slightly shallower with not dissimilar ballistics from the .270 wsm. I intend to use either norma or lapua brass and a quick search shows no results from either manufacturer in 7mm rsaum while at least norma seems to have available .270wsm. Could still be a viable option though.The problem with my 7 is not its performance, it is design. I bought it to build into a moderately heavy longe range gun and as such have a higher magnification scope on it as well as a heavier stock. Unfortunately it shoots too well with the factory barrel to break down and build a full custom on. So until I shoot the original barrel out my big .28 nosler or 7mm practical will have to wait. At any rate I intend to keep the 7 configured around providing a more stable heavy weight long range platform. It is a fantastic rifle but not one one want to carry into back country unless necessary. The majority of my concern at present is if I can house extended .270wsm in the short action model 700 using an extended magazine. In terms of accurization my brother is a well trained gunsmith and will be either guiding me through the build or doing machine work himself |
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@ 11:26 am (GMT) |
James KiehneRe: .270wsm build questionsOn a side note I am also considering fragmenting mono's like hammers or edge bullets for this build which can deliver more satisfactory mechanical damage at slower speeds. However as I anticipate the bread and butter of this gun to be shoulder shots on barbary sheep around 200 yards until I do a little more research on the other designs I anticipate setting it up to drive the weight retaining tsx bullets at high speeds through bone to anchor sheep rather than risking losing entire animals on the bluffs they run. |
@ 02:40 pm (GMT) |
Lane SalvatoRe: .270wsm build questionsMan if you haven't read all of Nathan's books you need to do it. I spend serious range time with a 338 Win. Mag. because of his work. Not to say that you need a 338 Win. Mag., but I'm just saying that's how much he can help you. I don't think you'll ever be happy with solid copper bullets. Have you ever considered DRT Terminal Shock? They have 270 ammo in 152 grain that I've used a lot. You can reload for the short magnum if that's really the way you want to go.I just think that if you spent a good deal of time reading Nathan's books you'd get a lot of clarity rather than trying to hash things out a piece at a time. Again, no offense if you've read the books already it's just that some of your questions, etc. suggest that they might be helpful and keep you from wasting effort. Good luck and good hunting. |
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@ 03:08 pm (GMT) |
James KiehneRe: .270wsm build questionsI need to make a quick amendment I just re read my OP, I intend 500 yards to be an absolute maximum for this build not a minimum. Typing on my cell phone I reversed the sign and did not catch it. |
@ 06:13 pm (GMT) |
Warwick MarflittRe: .270wsm build questionsJames How fit are you? How heavy a rifle are you happy to carry around? What kind of stock do you use. And how do you hold it when you use it? ++++ what everyone else said about Nathans 5 books of eternally relevant shooting knowledge.https://www.ballisticstudies.com/shop/Book+Bundles/The+Entire+Collection+-+25+Off/The+Entire+Collection+Paperback+Ebook-2.html Honestly mate if you really want to do this? Do it once and do it right. You need to invest into yourself the knowledge first. Its time and money well spent. Stick with your 7 Rem Mag while you read up and get the truthful answers that you seek. (Give a man a fish/Teach him how to fish) No one on this forums going too lie to you. We're saying what we say because we've all progressed from your situation to an informed n proven shooting system regardless of Caliber when used with realistic expectations. Gained from Nathans writings. I have a Modern Sako 6.5x55 Swede. Used with Nathans advised reloads. Its nothing like the limp wristed pop gun the reviews paint it to be? My 30-06 shooting mate called it a "Meat f@*#er" because of the damage a forward shoulder 140gn partition shot caused on a big red deer hind....... I guess that you've come here because your looking for answers to make this work? It will if your not afraid of investing time into learning whats needed to do what you want to do.........It's not hard. its just knowing and understanding the physics, math, science, skills and possessing the committed determination required in life to achieve achievable goals........ https://www.ballisticstudies.com/ |
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@ 07:44 pm (GMT) |
Garrett PasqualeRe: .270wsm build questionsWell said Warwick! |
@ 12:55 am (GMT) |
Hamish GibbsRe: .270wsm build questionsHi James I have a 300wsm rem700 SA feeding a coal of 80mm out of a mag box so I do know that that is at least possible. Built optimised for 208 amax/eld-m, was my pick for a carry weight with a bit of knock down.Are you asking a little much of a 130gr copper bullet? I don't honestly know but I know somebody who does! Warwick even left a link for you! |
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@ 06:28 am (GMT) |
Thomas KitchenRe: .270wsm build questionshi jamesjust checking do you want to build a rifle or buy one and tweak it? if you can get away from the idea of mono's something as simple as a tikka t3 in 7-08 might fit your needs. they use to do a 7x57 which would be ideal but i believe they have dropped that caliber now |
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@ 09:25 am (GMT) |
Bryan WebsterRe: .270wsm build questionsI agree with THomas. As you stated, your range of 500 yards maximum is a decent one that will not require a magnum rifle for sheep.I have several Tikka T3X lite rifles in .308, 30/06 and 7mm-08 and would not hesitate to take a shot at a trophy ram at 500 yards with any of them, and have done so on sheep as well as elk deer and wolves. I particularly like the 30/06 for back country hunts and these litght weight, highly accurate low cost rifles work very well. |
@ 09:51 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: .270wsm build questionsAnother difficult one. You may have started out with possibly unrealistic goals so it might be difficult to help. The areas of thinking that you may need to address include- a possible belief that all of your shots will be good (that you won't miss the vitals). Or possibly that using speed to increase the width of wounding will help overcome issues of shot placement at longer ranges. Understand this- you will miss the vitals. Perhaps not today or tomorrow, but one day, you will miss the vitals. If you do not use a bullet that can overcome human error, then you are adding to the problem. Speed can help overcome shot placement issues at close ranges, but as you reach out, the reduction in wounding is quite dramatic when using tough bullets. It is also important to understand that light and tough = severe wind drift.If your mind is already made up about tough 130gr bullets, light guns and high speeds, it can be difficult to see other options. Building light is one thing, building slim (the modern norm) is another thing altogether. On a slim stock, the .270 WSM recoils enough to shift it well off target if your heart rate is too high, winds gusting. You are going to miss your mark at some stage and the bullet you want to use will cause further problems. Listen to Bryan, he has been hunting for well over 50 years now. Yes a .300 WSM is a handful but again it depends on the rifle design. You should never come home with a bruised shoulder unless you are shooting a brass butt plate / heavy sessions. Technique is the key, then stock design, then gun weight. If you look around the forums at the moment, you will see that a few guys are going well with .30-06 rifles. I cannot think of a better cartridge for your application. To some this is a boring cartridge. Its a funny one really. Its boring only up until the day you use it, then suddenly it is like you have discovered something nobody else knows about, something truly unique, utter joy. But again, bullet design is the key. There are some good responses to this post here. But it is possible to over look some advice. For example, Thomas has suggested a slim 7mm-08. Pretty boring on paper. But loaded right it will out shoot most other light weights when acid tested / real world conditions. What Thomas is talking about here, is a cartridge in which we place our focus on the bullet design (see suggested bullet - knoweldge base), not velocity. So much so that there is no need for increased speed which in this instance, can cause decreased penetration at close ranges. This really is the crux of the matter. As Bryan has explained, the bullet design has to come first. If you really want to use the Barnes at longer ranges, speed is the key. But there is only so much speed you can obtain and make use of. At some stage, this type of bullet will lose its ability to render a wide wound. The info for this is in the knowldge base and books, it does not need to be hashed out again here. Do the math, study field results and leave idealistic thinking to socialists. |
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@ 10:16 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: .270wsm build questionsSorry, I forgot to mention the throat length as per your question.The .270 WSM is already long. Do not try to increase the throat length as this will merely increase jump. The Barnes bullets do not have a long bearing surface or room for long seating. They are designed to be used according to their driving bands. Its a load and hope affair (regarding both twist and jump). The 110gr can sometimes go well, so if you insist on using copper, try this as well as the 130gr. BC's are low with both so be careful with drift, lots of practice. If you are wanting to make the throat long to increase power, it may in this instance be wiser to simply start with a cartridge designed to produce higher velocities. Hope that helps. |
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@ 07:19 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: .270wsm build questionsJust one more thing I wanted to mention here, may help a bit James. Lane mentioned the DRT bullet. Like I said, lots of good helpful posts in this thread and this was one of them. You could put the DRT to work if you want to. The key factors to using it at range are to check the meplat on each batch to make sure the batch is optimized for low impact velocities, 30 second alterations if needed. I covered this in the cartridges book. The 152gr could be put to use, may suit your wants and needs nicely. |
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