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Forum Index > Rifles general discussion > Sighting In at 25 Yards

Sighting In at 25 Yards

03 Aug 2011
@ 06:27 pm (GMT)

Stephen Coote

Dan at Reloaders introduced me to this site. Thanks Dan, it looks like a good one.

I haven't read everything here yet, but I am contemplating buying a new rifle and I was grateful for all the useful and interesting information on the .308 Winchester cartridge. I have shot and hunted for many years, but have mainly used Lee Enfields... mostly in .303 British, but for the last few years I have used a Lee Enfield converted to 7.62 x 39

I want a rifle that lends itself well to having a moderator fitted. I haven't gotten all the funds together yet, but I'm keeping my eye out for a good second-hand .308 (bolt or single shot) fitted with a scope and moderator that will cost less than $1k

I've never gotten particularly scientific about my loads or ballistics, but now that I'm looking at a new rifle the ballistics have become more interesting. My main objective with rifles is to put meat in the freezer, although it is interesting to know what they are capable of. I used to shoot .303 on a semi-competitive basis. Mainly No 4 rifles using military Mk vii ammo.

So thanks for the comprehensive information.

I do have a question though. The useful charts here showed bullets being 3" high at 100 yards. But we can't always quickly find a place with a 100 yard or longer range to test our weapons. So how is this translated to work for a shorter sighting-in range like 25 yards? I guess it differs with scope height (something I haven't used a lot). I think with open-sighted .303s we would make them shoot a tad high at 25 yards to be useful around 200 yards. Naturally it is best if the rifle can be checked at a longer range.

In fact, I'd like to hear opinions on two questions for now:

1. When sighting in a .308 Win at 25 yards, where should the bullet be hitting to be 3 inches high at 100 yards?

2. When sighting in a .22 long rimfire at 25 yards, where should the bullet hit to have a rifle that is useful for longer shots at rabbit-sized targets? What about subsonic ammo?

Thanks in advance for any comments or ideas. Best wishes from Nelson.

Replies

1
04 Aug 2011
@ 10:03 am (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: Sighting In at 25 Yards
Hi Stephen, in the .308, it depends on what ammunition you are using as to what the trajectory will be. For example, Highland 150 grain dumpy ammunition running at around 2600fps will be vastly different to say Belmont's sleek 150 grain SST loading at around 2775fps. The former load (sight height 1.5") needs to be .15" high at 25 yards, the latter needs to be set .08 to be 3" high at 100 yards, after that, the trajectories will still be vastly different. The slightest differences at 25 yards will have a huge effect down range. While an initial sight in at 25 yards can be useful, once you have bullets printing on target, it is important to step back to 100 yards to test both the shooter and rifle.

In the .22's, it pays to sight in to be dead on at 50 yards and to check group sizes at this range. With WW Power Point, this is about .03" high at 25 yards and for subsonic WW ammo, about .4. It is possible to sight in at 60 yards to extend your trajectory however it takes a bit of getting used to if using subsonic ammunition and bullet drop is still in the region of 15" at 100 yards.
04 Aug 2011
@ 10:37 am (GMT)

Stephen Coote

Re: Sighting In at 25 Yards
Thanks Nathan, that all makes sense.

While it is very wise to sight in at a long range, sometimes it is good to be able to do a quick check at short range if that is all one can do.

This is a good site. Much appreciated.
27 Aug 2011
@ 03:30 pm (GMT)

Bruce Holler

Re: Sighting In at 25 Yards
After reading the following, I started sighting in at 25 yrds. I have always verifed shot placement at 25 yds just in case my scope gets bumped during a hunting trip. It is real easy to set up and verify you are still on target. I mounted a Nikon 3-9 on a Tikka 7mm-08 and a Redfield 2-7 on 308 BLR and sighted them both in at 25 yds. Good to go.

At the range I always start at 25 yds, final tweek at 100yds, verify at longer distances, and finally do a rapid fire test of three shot off hand to pracitce follow up shots.

enjoy,
Bruce

ZERO AT TWENTY FIVE
By Mitchell Peters

Many deer hunters don’t do it at all, but for a lot of us sighting-in your deer rifle or at least confirming your zero is an annual October weekend event. Showing up at one of the supervised MDC ranges is as universal an experience for those participating, as the opening day of deer season itself. The range will be crowded, you will probably have to wait, and when your turn comes you will only get a hurried and hectic hour to take care of business.

I have been shooting for 33-years. I have had formal and informal training in many shooting disciplines. I have fired everything from a pea shooter to an 8” howitzer. I even use to know how to bore sight an M60A3 battle tank’s 105 mm main gun.  I really thought I knew how to sight-in a deer rifle, or any rifle for that matter. I WAS WRONG! (I don’t have to admit that very often so take note.) I learned more in a two minute conversation with Bill Kunz, owner and operator of the Wil-Nor Hunt Club, than I had learned in the last 33 years. I had an epiphany, that is to say I had a sudden revelation of the elemental nature of the process of sighting-in a rifle for deer hunting.

Bill asked me what I was shooting. I proudly replied, “Grandpa Allen’s circa 1959, Winchester Model 70, in .243, with a John Unert l ¾ X 6 power externally adjusted, vintage scope. I explained, back in’59, Grandpa had a problem with feral cats and dogs eating his resident quail and ground hogs and raccoons were ruining his garden in rural southern Illinois. His Marlin .22 didn’t have enough reach so he went to his favorite gun shop in Terra Haute, IN and explained his predicament.  They set him up with the technology of the time and he proceeded to eliminate his pests. Grandma said he would sit on the back porch with a tall glass of lemonade before dusk and never shoot more than once or twice. With twinkling eyes Bill said, “Nice gun, for deer hunting, ZERO-IN AT 25 YARDS” I incredulously replied back , no Bill I’m going to zero at 100 yards, what the H--- are you talking about. Bill said, “ it really doesn’t matter about the trajectory and ballistics, as long as it’s a center fire rifle with a velocity of about 2500 feet per second or faster” “FOR MISSOURI DEER HUNTING, ZERO-IN AT 25 YARDS!” That is the epiphany and it is as simple as that.  

I hadn’t shot this rifle since the late 1980’s and couldn’t remember the details except that at the time it was accurate and zeroed for 150 yards. I expected after three relocates and 25 years the sights were on the paper, but not really zeroed. The first thing to do was to check the screws. I went over all the screws at the trigger guard and on the forearm of the stock. I found the latter screw to be ¼ turn loose. Next I went over the scope ring bases and rings. All were tight. I was sure the rifle would print on the paper so I skipped bore sighting. Bore sighting is the process of setting up the rifle in a gun vice or with sand bags and looking down the bore at a target and aligning the sights on the same target. Correctly done, bore sighting will always get the first shot on the paper.

The rifle range at Wil-Nor was sunny, hot and humid. I was using Federal 100 grain POWER-SHOK soft point ammunition which I had purchased at Wal-Mart. I set up my portable rifle vise, a handy accessory which helps to mechanically immobilize the rifle. (It is a Sight Vise by Lohman, it was also purchased at Wal-Mart.) I took careful aim at the target 25 yards away and slowly squeezed the trigger…manipulated the bolt… and repeated the process two more times. The shot group was slightly high and to the left. I calculated the necessary adjustments and input them to the scope turrets and re-fired the group this time the ¼ inch group was centered in the bullseye. I moved the target to 100 yards and re-fired a three round group. It had opened up to about an inch and a half and about 2 ¾ high and just slightly to the left. I gave the scope one click to the right to fine tune the sights. Nine bullets later and I was finished. FOR MISSOURI DEER HUNTING, ZERO-IN AT 25 YARDS! Then fine tune the windage only at 100 yards.

By now the skeptics, doubters, and competitive high power shooters are thinking I’m crazy and asking questions. How can this be? How does this work? Why don’t you sight in at 100, or 150 yards? Read on. In Missouri, the majority of white tail deer are killed at less than 100 yards, due to brush, hills, and terrain, few deer are killed between 100 and 200 yards, and rarely at distances beyond that. The conventional wisdom for a chest shot on a deer is accepted as a 12” circle but for this article lets assume it is only 8”. Deer are 3-dimensional, alive and moving and have little in common with a two-dimensional paper target. The objective is to place a bullet anywhere within an imaginary 8” circle in the deer’s chest area. I have never seen a live deer imprinted with an 8” bullseye target however I did see such a thing in a cartoon where two deer were talking. The punch line was “Bummer of a birthmark, Dude!”

Next let’s pick eight of the most common calibers and cartridges used to deer hunt in Missouri and determine their point blank range with a zero of 25 yards. I determined the selection of cartridges by the semi-scientific method of supply and demand. I visited Wal-Mart in Eureka, MO, noting what ammo was on sale in bulk at the deer hunting gear isle. From smallest to largest the calibers are: 1).223 Remington, 2) .243 Winchester, 3) .270 Winchester, 4) 7mm Remington Magnum 5) 7.62 X 39, 6) 30-30 Winchester, 7) .308 Winchester, 8) 30-06 Springfield. I had my friend Jeff Chosid a nationally renowned highpower competitive shooter, and author, run ballistic data for me using Sierra Infinity Ballistics software. Jeff also has a small business called C.A.B. Designs that produces standard and custom wind charts. Check them out at windcharts.com. The ballistic charts were plotted by Jeremy Hogue.

First on our list the Remington .223 , a varmint and military cartridge, at 700 fps faster than our 2500 fps threshold, we would expect that it shoots flat and it does. Using a 55 grain bullet and a 25 yard zero, the bullet is never 3 ¾ inches above or below the point of aim out to 300 yards. The bullet also crosses zero at just past 250 yards. Therefore the point blank range for the .223 is from 0 to 300 yards. To kill a deer you simply aim at the imaginary 8” circle and pull the trigger, with no hold over or under to worry about. Before you trade in your old .35 Remington remember that while the .223 shoots flat, it is still only a .22 caliber. It is the minimum sized, legal cartridge for deer, and many experienced hunters however would consider it a poor choice.

The Remington .243 is a much better pick. Based on the .308 this 6mm shoots flatter than the .223 and with almost twice the bullet weight at 100 grains. With a 25 yard zero, this cartridge also has a 300 yard point blank range. The maximum rise of the bullet is under 3 ½  inches at 150 yards and just below 3 ¾ inches at 300 yards. From varmints to deer this caliber is an excellent choice, especially if low recoil is an important consideration.
The old and reliable .270 Winchester is also an excellent choice. It is flatter shooting than it’s parent the ubiquitous 30-06, but not as effective on big game like elk and moose, which is not a problem in our state. Using a 150 grain bullet, and a 25 yard zero we have a point blank range of over 300 yards. The top of our trajectory is 3.83 inches at 150 yards and 1.40 inches low at 300 yards.

The 7mm Remington Magnum has much more power than needed for Missouri’s whitetail hunter but its flat shooting and long range capability make it an excellent “bean field rifle”. Using a 25 yard zero and firing a 150 grain bullet the trajectory is very similar to the non magnum 270. This cartridge also has a point blank range of 300 yards with the maximum bullet rise of 3 ¾ inches and a maximum fall of slightly more than 1 ½ inches. At  300 yards. Perhaps more interesting is there is no significant advantage over the old 270 except the potential for shooting slightly heavier bullets.

The next two calibers I will talk about are the venerable 30-30 and the 7.62 X 39 Russian. Both these cartridges when compared together are within fractions of an inch on the ballistic table and both are a little below our 2500 fps threshold. The 30-30 was designed before 1900 and the 7.62 X 39 was designed for the SKS carbine in 1945. Both cartridges, the 30-30 with a 150 grain bullet and the 7.62 X 39 with a 123 grain bullet are adequate for a point blank range of 0 to 200 yards when sighted in at 25 yards. Additionally both cartridges are also near zero at 150 yards and never rise more than 2 inches above zero.

The .308 Winchester and the 30-06 Springfield are as similar to each other ballistically speaking as the previous two cartridges. Coincidentally the .308 is also about 50 years younger than the 30-06. These cartridges were designed for the military and both have proven records as big game takers in North America. Both offer a wide variety of factory loaded ammunition in different bullet weights and styles. With a 25 yard zero and bullets between 150 and 165 grains both will have point blank ranges of 0 to 250 yards.

In researching this article I not only proved a 25 yard zero works, I discovered several interesting points. I never would have believed a 30-30, and a 7.62 X 39  would shoot flatter at 200 yards than a 7mm Rem. Mag, or a 243 at 300 yards, but they do. I also never realized how ballistic similar the following cartridges are: a 30-30 and a 7.62 X39, a 270 and a 7mm Rem Mag., and a 308 and a 30-06. Furthermore I do not see much advantage of a 7mm Rem. Mag. over the much older and less glamorous 270. Now here are at least four separate arguments you can bring up at deer camp 2005, just make sure you have this copy of Missouri Deer Hunter Magazine to prove your point. My thanks to Bill Kunz for the inspiration and motivation to write this article.
27 Aug 2011
@ 04:54 pm (GMT)

Stephen Coote

Re: Sighting In at 25 Yards
Thanks Bruce

I spent a while looking for a good rifle. During the process I found a new Mossberg ATR .308 fitted with a full length moderator on special for $749. I got myself a Redfield scope... but then had to find a place to sight it in. With the lambing season and shooting politics I couldn't go to the places I used to go. So I joined the Seabourne Rifle Club who has a range nearby.

I had bore sighted the rifle. When I went to the range one of the helpful guys tacked a target to a post maybe 20 yards away. My shots grouped a tad to the left of the bull. We wound the scope over a few clicks then shot at 100. The hits were well within the standard game-shooting 'pie plate'. We then made some further adjustments to centre the group around 2.5" high.

I'm delighted with the Mossberg.

So yes, I think that a 25 yard check is a reasonable thing for a hunter to have in his/her repetoire. Naturally it is best to sight at game-shooting ranges, but if a few shots can set your mind at ease after bumping the scope then this could be a better option than aborting a hunting trip. I'd even venture to say that once someone who is a reasonable marksman gets to know the rifle and the loads, then 25 yard sighting could consistently get one very close to the mark at longer ranges. That's what I reckon anyway.

As I get more time at the range I hope to record my group centres for my favorite loads to get a better idea of trajectory. I also want to see what happens back at 25 yards once I've zeroed the rifle at long range.

It is all good fun and I'm sure I will always be learning.

Best wishes... Coote.
27 Aug 2011
@ 06:35 pm (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: Sighting In at 25 Yards
That article has some good points for woods hunters, but from my own experience in the field, both privately and as a guide, I have come to learn how this theory can fall down.

I used to sight in at 25 yards when I was young and I thought I had it all sorted. Things changed when I purchased a Ruger M77 .270. It grouped well at 25 yards but I had a lot of misses in the field. One day I tried the rifle at 100 yards and I discovered why I was having hard time with it, average group size was 3".

When guys sight in at 25 yards, the group size is usually pretty good, atleast an inch or less. However, a 1" group at 25 yards can end up being as wide as 4" at 100 yards and 8" at 200 yards and so forth. Trajectory is only a part of the equation, dispersion is of immense importance and often, we can't see problems with dispersion at 25 yards, atleast not in a meaningful way.

I spent a lot of time over the years hunting at close to moderate ranges before we had the long range gear we have now. One thing I learned the hard way, is that while 90% of the deer are shot at ranges of less than 100 yards (a saying that was also once common in NZ), if your long awaited, highly anticipated hunt results in a 10% shot- you are going to be upset if the rifle is not capable of appropriate accuracy. Those 10% shots happen all the time. Its no different that saying a person has a 1:100000000 chance of winning the lottery, yet people win the lottery every week.

When I started guiding, I had quite a few clients with rifles set up at 25 yards. A year later, after seeing quite a few problems in the field, I implemented a rule, the rifles must be capable of shooting 1" or less at 100 yards before the hunt, otherwise, a back up rifle will be used. I did this because it was the only way to ensure success rates, not because I thought it was a good theory based on some calculations I had made. These days, I am more involved in long range tutorials so its a different ball game altogether.

I can understand why a person would sight at 25 yards with a rifle he already knows and trusts very well and knows that the range will always be short. What I don't like, is when it is then assumed that everyone else should do the same. I also think that in most instances, people choose to test rifles at 25 yards not because its the only range available, but because they lack the confidence to test the rifles at 100 yards. I also believe that in such instances, it is a poor practice to try and bring others down to this lower confidence level for self validation.

If someone wants to sight in at 25 yards, I would prefer they keep it to themselves, not promote it as being a good practice. People do tend to generalize and those who have less experience, can be inclined to make no distinction between true woods ranges (20-75 yards) and cross clearing shots. By the same token, a 1" group at 25 yards can seem fairly acceptable to new hunters with little field experience. I saw that the author put the words Missouri and deer in capitals to try and ensure people don't generalize, I get that.

As for the vital area, it is another factor that can get lost in generalization. What if the hunter is targeting Coyote, Cous Deer, pigs etc. On porker sized pigs, a portion of the target area will be obscured and protected by ground vegetation during the months of the year when pasture growth is long. Furthermore, as cartridge power is decreased, using the .243 for example, the 4" group at 100 yards may hit the rear lungs, but won't have enough wounding potential to secure the animal on the spot and it may run so far as to never be recovered. Using the .243 at 200 yards on deer, if the rifle is shooting a 5-8" group at this range, kills on deer may be immensely slow, at 300 yards, the result may be a gut shot, taking around 6 hours to kill. I have seen it for myself and I don't really want to go there again, shots that have hit the gut, shots that have hit just behind the heart but below the lungs, above the lungs but below the spine, above the spine through the dorsal vertebrae.

So what's more important, clean killing or proving that 25 yards is a good range to sight in at, when hunting Missouri deer?
27 Aug 2011
@ 10:18 pm (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: Sighting In at 25 Yards
A few things I forgot to mention, yes, I agree, start at 25 yards, then go out to 100 yards from there. It can be a frustrating waste of ammo to do otherwise. Sorry if I have given the wrong impression in this regard.

Second thing, to guys that simply can't get to a 100 yard range, my apologies for pushing the 100 yard issue, its unfair to put that pressure on you. If 25 yards is all you can get, try to work towards 1/4" groups or less. At the same time, consider the ramifications of a 1" group at 25 yards.

Lastly, if you can get to a 100 yard range but you are primarily a woods/bush hunter, here is just one little story from the field that may help a bit. I was operating a father son hunt many years ago. The son had his first rifle, a Lee Enfield .303 (this story is also in my now very old article 'the dummies guide to rifle accuracy'- Knowledge Base). I set that rifle up to shoot well at 100 yards with its open sights, then I got the young fella behind it, set him up and after a bit of practice, he was away. Those of you who have done a bit of open sighted shooting at range will know this piece of internal dialogue I am about to state- "I hope I hit it". With open sights, if practice is not maintained, we tend to think like this- "I hope I hit it". Its only by going out to 100 yards and practicing, that we can build up a level of confidence and tone down the "I hope" stuff in favor of "I can do this".

Regarding the young fella, he shot his game at ranges of around 50 to 75 yards which at a first glance leaves you thinking- no big deal. But think about it, he was shooting well at 100 yards at the range, try to imagine how that helped his confidence as we slipped into position at 75 yards for a single well placed shot. Its kind of hard to describe here, but I think you will all understand what I am describing.
28 Aug 2011
@ 09:58 am (GMT)

Stephen Coote

Re: Sighting In at 25 Yards
Thanks Nathan, I can see where you are coming from. And frankly I think you represent excellence as far as shooing is concerned. It is good to always encourage the best possible practice in any endeavour, especially where humane kills and top performance are at stake.

We need people with your knowledge and stance. I regard you as an expert.

However it is good to know the correlation between where your rifle is shooting at 'game ranges' and the practical shorter distance of 25 yards. It seems to be a time-honored procedure in some circles.

Proper shooting form, consistent loads and a precisely zeroed rifle are ideal. But in day-to-day life people make do with who they are and what they've got. Not everybody cares, but I like to apply an 'ethical' standard to my shooting as much as I can. This does involve the mechanics or science of shooting, but it is more about knowing my limits. In practical terms, for an archer hunting deer or goats it might mean that you don't shoot at any range beyond which you can land nine out of ten arrows in a six inch circle. (For me, when I was regularly shooting arrows, that distance might have been 15 yards).

Even with intensive practice, a laser rangefinder, laboratory-grade ammo, an expensive scope and rifle... hunting in the field - or even long range target shooting - can involve good judgement and a certain amount of what I'd call 'luck' for want of a better term. So while it is undoubtedly best to start off with the best possible methods and equipment, we have no control over the sun, the wind and animal behaviour. So we have to apply our judgement when the deer trots across a small clearing about 100 yards away and there is no way we can see it if we lie down to shoot.

Deer hunting in the USA is a big deal to many people. Yet many hunters are restricted to using shotguns. I've never seriously shot with rifled slugs so I'm not an expert, but I imagine that many of the shooter/gun/ammo combinations would not generally achieve moa accuracy. But these guys still take the shots, and I wish them well. My own experience of shooting a goat with a Brenneke slug was a nightmare, even though it was a fairly good hit and I did recover the goat within maybe two minutes. Shot placement is so important.

From my own ethical viewpoint, I question the rule about only shooting game birds on the wing. I have absolutely no problem with duck hunters, but from my own limited shotgun experience I really do wonder about it all. Not that I would want to break the law, but if I wanted to eat duck I'd rather pop it in the head with a single subsonic .22 bullet while it was standing on the river bank. A quick end and clean meat. I don't like to think about all the injured ducks that might get away if I was let loose with a shotgun. And I'm guessing that there will be some licensed duck hunters flinging shot around that cant shoot much better than me with a scattergun. But the way we do it is based on tradition and it is governed by law. There isn't much focus on science or 'best practice'.

Injuring an animal is a horrible thing. When I think about what must be constantly be happening as hunters do their thing around the world, I get some comfort from considering how nature seems to work. A barracoutta might bite the tail off a mullet. A tiger might tear open the leg of a buffalo calf before the mother buffalo steps in. However, because injuries happen in nature, this is no reason for a hunter to simply shrug off the issue. We are highly evolved, and we are capable of better behaviour.

One of the early farmer settlers on d'Urville Island known to my family had a single-shot Winchester .22 rimfire. With it he shot birds, pigs and wild cattle. He used it because it was all he had. That doesn't mean that we should shoot cattle with a single-shot .22, and it doesn't really mean he was 'wrong' in the context of his circumstances. I never heard the horror-stories about the ones that got away, but this guy kept his family fed.

I was raised in a family with strong military ties. Dad was an artillery officer and a keen hunter. I shot my first rabbit when I was six. Up until a couple of weeks ago, I'd never owned a centrefire with a telescopic sight. In the past I had never given much thought to pinpoint accuracy, although I have done quite a bit of old military-style target shooting. When looking around for a decent, affordable centrefire I started to search the internet. I then began to read about 'moa' etc.... and I came across this site. My main ambition had been to find a rifle to hunt with. I've got one now. I was very pleased with how it shot and with how my very first hand-loads performed.

But in my quest for a rifle I've come across some interesting things. I've discovered shooting forums including this one. I've joined a rifle club. I've met all sorts of people on line and in person. I've been introduced to long range shooting and case-turning. I've used a bench rest for the very first time. And I am thoroughly enjoying myself. I'm even thinking about getting a rifle to use on the range so that I'm not thrashing my hunting rifle and constantly changing the sights. I'm toying with buying a mould and casting my own bullets..... hell.... I might even try black powder and paper patched projectiles. I'm looking forward to my first fun shotgun shoot at the range so I can blow the dust out of my old Spanish Gorosabel side-by-side. Before too long I might even be agonizing over how to reduce the size of my groups below two inches at 200 yards. When I do, one of the places I will be likely to come to for answers is here.

Thanks and best wishes..... Coote.



28 Aug 2011
@ 11:24 am (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: Sighting In at 25 Yards
Well said. I have had the same thoughts when it comes to the ethics of game killing. Do we expect perfection from ourselves? No, we can't, because we are not machines. Instead, we do the best we can, trying to maintain a balanced perspective. And yes, I have wondered, why it is not legal to cleanly head shoot a duck. What this infers, is that this law is bound only by tradition, odd for sure.

One question Coote, did you find that you felt intimidated at times, starting over with a scoped centerfire rifle? When I did the seminar in Auckland recently, one of the guys commented afterwards that prior to the seminar he had felt a bit intimidated with regards to rifle accuracy / accutate shooting. He said that he felt that he was way out of his depth (which hopefully was dispelled during the seminar).

Glad to here your Mossberg ATR is shooting well. On the subject of the Mosseberg and the ethics of game killing, I would like to share another story.

I tricked up an ATR up a couple of years ago, turned out to be a real tack driver. The rifle had been shooting well for a few years but over time, the stock fit had become a bit sloppy, as can happen with any rifle. The client was a repeat hunting client (a very good shot) and on this particular trip, the zero wandered mid trip. A pig was shot at 300 yards but rather than a chest shot, the bullet struck its rear ham and off it went. I don't usually finish off pigs for clients, I'd rather not intervene but this pig was really on the move. I grabbed my rifle and finished it off, range was about 650 yards from memory. Anyway, after the ATR was bedded it shot extremely well, about .3" with hand loads and .6" with factory ammo. Suffice to say, it had a very good bore and a sound action, quite remarkable for such an inexpensive rifle.

The whole excersize was counterpoint for me. I had been writing and researching towards humane game killing, but for a long time I was also wrestling with the ethics of long range hunting. Finishing off the pig before it escaped into the opposite valley system allowed me to see things from a different angle.

Below, I have just taken the shot (I'm tucked over the side of the ridge with the Labrador spotter. Pig is across the valley, on the valley floor. Second photo shows the ham wound and the finishing shot. Third photo shows the exit wound from the finishing shot, giving an idea of the angle etc.






28 Aug 2011
@ 12:18 pm (GMT)

Stephen Coote

Re: Sighting In at 25 Yards
Nice photos!! Interesting country.

Did I feel intimidated starting over with a scoped rifle? Hmmm.... perhaps a little. I had the self-confidence borne of having done a lot of shooting and bringing home a lot of meat. And I had started to use a scoped .22 some years before. But after reading about everybody everywhere achieving moa accuracy with their centrefires, I guess I felt a bit humbled and bewildered. When I was a teenager I used to shoot at 200 yards with a rear aperture and a front blade. The 'black' was half round, and Im guessing the 'bull' was about six inches in diameter. Dunno. Anyway, I was sometimes fairly successful at this range shooting and when I was at my best it wasn't unusual to get a 'possible' or maybe 23 or 24 out of 25. But a possible only needed a six inch group, and often I'd have a few outside that..... and furthermore a six inch group at 200 yards represents a 3 minute angle of accuracy. So you can see how in awe I was of all this modern talk of sub-moa groups.

After firing my first few factory rounds at the range, the bystanders were making nice comments about the shooting. One old ex-culler told me that the rifle should be considered a 'tack driver' as far as hunting was concerned. As far as I could tell through the spotting scope, my final shots were probably within a 2 inch group (i.e. still greater than 1 minute of angle). But having read the hype, and having used a bench rest and a new scope & rifle I was actually a little disappointed with the result at the time.

Now I've had time to think about it all, I'm fairly relaxed and happy. I now have the means to ethically take shots to maybe 250 yards in the right conditions, and I'm sure with practice and experimentation I will feel confident to sometimes take a longer shot if I go by the rule of only shooting at ranges where I can land my shots in a six to eight inch circle. But compared to my bow, or my .22, or my open-sighted 7.62 x 39, I am now better equipped to harvest meat. And I have rekindled some of my old enthusiasm for shooting. It is a good feeling. Furthermore, I can now work at tightening my groups up even more. The area needing the most work is me.... but I can also learn about best reloading practices, reading the wind, and rifle accurisizing. I'm looking forward to it.

I don't have any impressive photos of centrefire hunts to share.... but here are a couple from my more primitive side.

This possum was taken at reasonably close range using a home-made sycamore bow and an arrow made from our native stinkwood coprosma:


And this hog was taken without any application of the science of ballistics. I speared it after catching it in a simple rope snare. It had been rooting the ground on a farm very close to a settled area:


Maybe I will get photos more relevant to this site now that I have a long-range rifle and a decent digital camera.

Have fun.... Coote.
28 Aug 2011
@ 12:21 pm (GMT)

Stephen Coote

Re: Sighting In at 25 Yards
Those of you who know about animals will realize that my second photo in the above post is not a pig as stated.

Here is the pig I was referring to:

28 Aug 2011
@ 06:20 pm (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: Sighting In at 25 Yards
Nice pics! I never could find a decent wood around here to make a long bow and it was one thing I always wanted to do.
29 Aug 2011
@ 04:00 am (GMT)

Bruce Holler

Re: Sighting In at 25 Yards
The question was about sighting in at 25 yards

The Zero at 25 is a fun read, and a good rule of thumb. Sight in at 25 and fine tune at 100 yards. You are good to go.

Zero at 25 works because of ballistics. the bullet rises and passes through the line of sight, in this case Zero at 25, and passes through the line of sight again in the distance on its way back down. In the case of my BLR .308 Win its about 236 yards.

Or I could sight my 308 in the max point blank range (mpbr), =/- 3" of line of sight. That would be about 278 yard zeroed in at 236 yards. To get the mpbr I will need to zero in from the muzzle to the target. It is recommended to set your rilfle up first on the shooting bench and then from the muzzle set the taget out at 236 yards. Before each shot verify the target is 236 yards from the muzzle. If not adjust the target accordingly.

I think I will stick with the 25 yds zero which gives me a point blank range of 278 yards using Federal 308 Win, BC .425, 150 gr Nosler Ballistic tip, at 2820 fps.

The question was about sighting in at 25 yards. Yes it works. The shooters, riflemen, hunters still needs to be in the know and do their part.

for a good resource try the ballistic calculator at http://www.biggameinfo.com/index.aspx

It is interesting that trajectory is affected by bullet B.C. and Velocity but not weight or diameter. This implies that all rifles can have the same trajectory by selecting bullets with the same B.C. and reloading them to the same velocity. A 30-30 will shoot as flat as a 223, BC .254 and .253, velocity at 2200 fps. It is also interesting to note in interaction between Energy, Momentum, and Optimal Game Wgt.

--Bruce
29 Aug 2011
@ 08:07 am (GMT)

Stephen Coote

Re: Sighting In at 25 Yards
This is all interesting thanks. While I've shot for years, I have never really pondered what the bullet has been doing. Basically all I did was wipe the oil out of the barrel, grab a bunch of mk vii military ammo from the cupboard.... then go and shoot. The sights were callibrated so I could set them for different ranges. I guess as boys we knew the weight of the projectile, and we could probably quote some muzzle velocities and bullet energy figures, but I didn't absorb much beyond that. I guess I never saw the need.

Now I have plenty to think about.

I have a couple of questions though....

1. What does the BLR stand for (as in BLR .308)?, and....

2. Why on earth weren't you in bed at 4.00 am?

Regards.... Coote
29 Aug 2011
@ 12:06 pm (GMT)

Bruce Holler

Re: Sighting In at 25 Yards
BLR = Browning Lever Action. 308 = 7.62 Nato.
I live just out side Portland Oregon USA.

In my continuing research in ballastics I came accross this wedsite.
Watching the videos as deepend my appreciation of long range sniping.

--Bruce
29 Aug 2011
@ 12:33 pm (GMT)

Bruce Holler

Re: Sighting In at 25 Yards
to answer your question: When sighting in a .308 Win at 25 yards, where should the bullet be hitting to be 3 inches high at 100 yards?

A bullet starting off at 2840 fps, as Federal 150 gr with a BC of .387

Muzzle -1.5 scope above rifle bore
25yds 0.4"
150yds 5.6"
300yds 0.0"

Max Point blank range (+/- 3" from line of sight) is 276 yds when zeroed at 235 yds.

--Bruce
02 Sep 2011
@ 01:49 am (GMT)

Bruce Holler

Re: Sighting In at 25 Yards
Short cut without cutting corners. Try this when sighting in a rifle scope.
1.From a steady rest zero in on the center of the bull's eye and fire a shot.
2.Return rifle to zero in on the center for the bull's eye.
3.With out moving the rifle adjust the cross hairs to center on the bullet hole in the target.
Could this be a one shot sight in? Trust, but Verify by shooting groups at 100 yds. And make need adjustments.

The last time I sighted in my 7mm-08 the first shot was 3Short cut without cutting corners. Try this when sighting in a rifle scope.
1.From a steady rest zero in on the center of the bull's eye and fire a shot.
2.Return rifle to zero in on the center for the bull's eye.
3.With out moving the rifle adjust the cross hairs to center on the bullet hole in the target.
Could this be a one shot sight in? Trust, but Verify by shooting groups at 100 yds. And make need adjustments.

The last time I sighted in my 7mm-08 the first shot was 3 inches (7.62 cm) to the right and 6 inches (15.25 cm) low. By using the above method I did not have to calculate or count the number of clicks. I was close, only minor adjustment away from “Spot On.”
02 Sep 2011
@ 02:58 am (GMT)

Bruce Holler

Re: Sighting In at 25 Yards
Zero at 25 although is a fun read, I can see how some my think Zero at 25 is all that is needed and skip the 100 yds final adjustment. Or to practice at further distances.

I shot a deer one year at bout 40 yds with my 25-06. She went flat on the ground. Dead deer I thought, didn't even camber a new round. then the deer sprang up and made it another 100 yds or so. What nightmare. Now I practice follow up shots off hand just in case. I also us a tecnique to operate the bolt with out have to grab hold of it and my hand returns place for the next shot.



08 Nov 2011
@ 07:55 am (GMT)

Stephen Coote

Re: Sighting In at 25 Yards
Correction. In the above post I said that the cartridge I used was 'steel jacketed'. What nonsense. I meant it had a steel cartridge case. You probably guessed that though.

Have a great day.
17 Nov 2011
@ 08:08 am (GMT)

Stephen Coote

Re: Sighting In at 25 Yards
Yep, the old Lee Enfields have certainly increased in value here too, even though there seems to be many more hunting rifle 'choices' around.

I think it was back in the '70s I belonged to a rifle club. As members of the club we were offered 'new' No 4s at NZ$11 each. I think they came from the army. I bought one, but never used it because there were other rifles available to me. So I swapped it to my brother. But it is worth hundreds now. I should have stocked up (although I think there may have been a limit of one rifle per club member).

I agree that the old SMLE is a relatively 'quick' bolt action rifle. I guess I would mainly say that because I am so used to using one... and also because of the large magazine capacity and the overall reliability of the action.

Recently at my rifle club I heard about the 'mad minute' shoot they are thinking about having at the club. Evidently it is done elsewhere. This involves trying to get away thirty reasonably accurate shots through your military .303 Br in one minute. I'm sure there would be a lot of noise and some laughing, but I know I'd have difficulty getting all thirty shots into the bull at that speed. It would be fun to try though. I'd have to load up some pointed bullets so I could be sure they'd feed well..... and dig out some old speed-loading cartridge clips for the event.

I like the 7.62 x 39. I suppose we started to use it because of the availablility of cheap ammo, and I wouldn't be surprised if this is why a lot of others have switched to it as well. The case size also should lend itself nicely to reduced loads.

Best wishes from New Zealand... Stephen Coote
email: srcoote AT gmail.com
18 Nov 2011
@ 08:59 pm (GMT)

Stephen Coote

Re: Sighting In at 25 Yards
We don't have any whitetails in my part of New Zealand.... although we do have whitetails on Stewart Island (and maybe other places I don't know about). And some of us also hunt in 'the bush' where a quick close shot may be called for.

The main big game animals in my part of the country are red deer, fallow deer, pigs and goats. Elsewhere there are other species of deer including wapiti, thar and chamois. And of course we have rabbits, hares, possums, a few wallabies and some game birds. The only thing we always need a license to hunt are the game birds. Except for a few bats, and marine mammals, all the wild mammals in this country were introduced.

I like your term 'CEP'. I had a similar concept when bow hunting. I made my own gear from sticks I found around me. My bows weren't particularly efficient, and I'm not Howard Hill. However I did bag a few rabbits, goats and one pig with my crude equipment. My guideline was to generally not shoot beyond the range at which I could land most of my arrows in a six inch circle. And I guess that would have been about 18 yards. I've hunted with firearms since I was about six years old, but after my fling with archery in the '90's, I think I am now a better hunter and I have a greater appreciation for firearms and accuracy.

If I were hunting in open country where I might take a shot up to 300 yards, then I'd want a really reliable, accurate rifle.... probably shooting consistently within one minute of angle. But for bush hunting the old Lee Enfield with its reputed standard of four minutes accuracy is still incredibly accurate compared to a bow (although a lot of these SMLEs have shot better than that). Provided, of course, that I know my limits and can judge range sensibly. I wouldn't be very happy taking out a gun that couldn't hit a beer carton at 50 yards. Great story.

Best wishes.... Stephen Coote
srcoote @ gmail.com

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