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Forum Index > Rifles general discussion > Help with Groups

Help with Groups

08 Mar 2017
@ 03:21 pm (GMT)

Andrew Murray

Hi all,

I'm wondering if you could take a look at these photos and suggest some help?

I seem to be shooting consistently high and left. The rifle is a CZ452 22LR.

Range was 100yd and ammo was Winchester Hyper Velocity 34gr HP (fps is unknown and I can't find it looking anywhere)
<a href="http://www.gunauction.com/buy/13999075]Here is a link to what the ammo looks like.">http://www.gunauction.com/buy/13999075]Here is a link to what the ammo looks like.</a>

It was a bit windy but coming mostly dead on. I can only think I may have dialed to far left (that there was wind blowing to the right on the group that I sighted in with) or my technique is wrong. I am shooting right handed. Had a bag at the butt of the rifle and the front on a tripod type rest.

Photo one. Top group was for sighting in. Dialed the scope 8 clicks left and 8 clicks down (scope clicks are 1/4 inch at 100yds according to the dials)


Photo 2: Top left hand group was shot at the top cross hair on the left, the other 2 were at their respective bulls at the bottom.


Photo 3 and 4: The groups were shot at the respective bulls on each target.



Cheers and many thanks in advance for your help.

Replies

08 Mar 2017
@ 03:24 pm (GMT)

Andrew Murray

Re: Help with Groups
Hmmm these photos aren't working again nor the links!

Ammo link http://www.gunauction.com/buy/13999075

Target 1 link https://viewfrombellbird.wordpress.com/22lr_hypervelocity1/

Target 2 https://viewfrombellbird.wordpress.com/22lr_hypervelocity2/

Target 3 https://viewfrombellbird.wordpress.com/22lr_hypervelocity3/

Target 4 https://viewfrombellbird.wordpress.com/22lr_hypervelocity4/
08 Mar 2017
@ 03:38 pm (GMT)

Andrew Murray

Re: Help with Groups
Images figured out. FYI It was the way my site is hosting them.

1
2
3
4
08 Mar 2017
@ 07:43 pm (GMT)

Mike Neeson

Re: Help with Groups
Is this the model rifle that has the easy change out barrel? If so a friend of mine had a similar problem until he started using a toque wrench on the barrel screws and torquing them to the recommended tension. Also 100m is a long way for a .22lr... hehe
08 Mar 2017
@ 08:22 pm (GMT)

Andrew Murray

Re: Help with Groups
Hi Mike,

It's an older model (about 2000) so no barrel change.

I've managed to shoot some pretty tight groups out of it. But not consistently.

Using Nathan's method in the shooting book. I'm thinking it's me because I know it can shoot under 1 MOA, I've done it before, last time I went out I manage a few 0.6MOA groups.
08 Mar 2017
@ 11:20 pm (GMT)

Mike Neeson

Re: Help with Groups
Mate, I'm wondering if temp change and air density had anything to do with it. If the projectiles are going transonic at a different point, they may be getting more wobbly than usual. I know target 22lr shooters (Olympic) typically like subsonic ammo so the projectiles start out below that turbulent transonic stage of flight, helping get super tight groups. Sorry I can't be more help.
08 Mar 2017
@ 11:31 pm (GMT)

Andrew Murray

Re: Help with Groups
Cheers mate, thats something I'd not considered!

It's next to impossible to find fps though. No data online or on the box.[b]
09 Mar 2017
@ 12:08 am (GMT)

Andrew Murray

Re: Help with Groups
I've emailed Winchester Australia directly asking about fps, but working on data I've gathered from around the net and using the JBM ballistic calculator (albeit with the inputted data for the 36gr winchester projectile)... Their calculations say the bullet goes subsonic at around 40yds (MV 1260FPS).

A 5mph cross wind at 90 degrees puts the bullet 3.5" off target (at 100yds) too. But Like I said, the wind was fairly dead on but I can't recall full details. I guess I was too focused on the target rather than everything else going on.

Link here for the calculations http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi

I'd like to believe I can shoot tight thumb nail groups but I may need to change ammo and wait for better conditions. I'd like to know what the limits really are. Perhaps an indoor range and on a bench will eliminate a lot of variables.
09 Mar 2017
@ 05:01 am (GMT)

Bryan Webster

Re: Help with Groups
Start by getting a good wind reading at your 100 yard target.
A decent chronograph might be a good idea but if you have obtained good sized groups at 25 and 50 yards, it might be more a wind or a shooter issue. The .22 LR is very wind sensitive.
09 Mar 2017
@ 07:29 am (GMT)

Bryan Webster

Re: Help with Groups
.22LR rifles can be picky as to the ammo they like. I use Lapua CenterX in all of mine. As well, several of my Anshutz .22 rifles have been epoxy and pillar bedded, and they shoot extremely well.

Here is a site a person can find help on in doing this:

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=568979
09 Mar 2017
@ 08:26 am (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: Help with Groups
Andrew, do keep in mind what Mike said above, along with Bryans comments.
09 Mar 2017
@ 08:50 am (GMT)

Andrew Murray

Re: Help with Groups
Cheers guys.

I'm glad too see that y'all aren't concerned with technique at this point :)

Thanks for your help and input.
09 Mar 2017
@ 09:40 am (GMT)

Martin Taylor

Re: Help with Groups
As the guys have said looks like slight wind changes are shifting many of those groups, note the spread horizontally across many of the targets.

The other trap with 22's at range is ammo type as Bryan has also said, velocity changes from shot to shot can be massive effecting your vertical. Chrono's will show this and you will probably be surprised at just how bad many very common brands/types are. I picked up some Winchester 555's for the kids and they where horrendous, didn't even need a Chrono, we could hear the differences from shot to shot.

l couldn't agree more with the bedding note, very over looked because "it's just a 22".........
Both my lr & mag would have massive PIO shifts and groups opening with different types/brands of ammo. After bedding only vertical shifts are evident with the velocity changes in the lr.
Whenever my new Ruger Target 22 turns up it will be bedded though l may do a before and after type thing.

09 Mar 2017
@ 01:40 pm (GMT)

Bryan Webster

Re: Help with Groups
Martin, I would bevery interested in your findings on the new Ruger Target .22.
What scope had you planned to use with it?
09 Mar 2017
@ 02:18 pm (GMT)

Andrew Murray

Re: Help with Groups
Cheers Martin,

Thanks for the advice. Maybe a project for bedding? I'd hate to balls it up though :(
09 Mar 2017
@ 04:39 pm (GMT)

mark whiteley

Re: Help with Groups
I know of guys who shoot rimfire comp
they have told me to clean between changing brands of 22 ammo, apparently the fowling is different between brands and that it may take 50 or more shots to get there 22 rifle to start to shoot accurately again after cleaning,
they have also told me they do not clean until there rifles start to shoot off after it starts to shoot for them,
I cant say they are correct as I don't do this as I clean after every outing because my 22's are not used every week to preserve them
these guys who shoot comp are very adamant that it works for rimfire rifles
they also use subsonic ammo, sometime's pistol ammo,
at shorter distances than you
I think that you are asking a lot of your 22 to shoot very accurately at 100y, not to say it cant be done but it's a big ask to do it with so many variables all the time, I don't think you are wasting your time, it's all practice and good on you for having a go
regards Mark
10 Mar 2017
@ 09:48 am (GMT)

Martin Taylor

Re: Help with Groups
With Nathans books and guidance bedding your own rifles is very rewarding Andrew. Years ago I started with my 22's as these where my cheapest & oldest rifles so it lowered the apprehension levels to start with.

Me too Bryan, this model Ruger has all the features we needed, which is unusual for me to find. l have put off updating my poor old Chinese Brono/CZ knock off for 25 odd years, the damn thing still shoots, it's just a little tricky to cycle for the kids whilst spotlighting.

Scope at this stage will be either the great little Nikon Prostaff 2-7 they use now (which is amazing clear at night on any power!) or a new Weaver EBX 4-something or other l took of their 223. It's too dark at range for shooting foxes on stubble paddocks under the light. Over all a disappointingly poor optic from a brand we've had great success with in the past.
Subject to change though, they warned me it might be a while before we see the Rugers land here in OZ.
10 Mar 2017
@ 12:32 pm (GMT)

Bryan Webster

Re: Help with Groups
Martin, I will look for your postings shooting that rifle.

Andrew here is a Youtube video link from OZ you might enjoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQEbJhcx4os

10 Mar 2017
@ 07:09 pm (GMT)

Andrew Murray

Re: Help with Groups
Quote:
Martin, I will look for your postings shooting that rifle.

Andrew here is a Youtube video link from OZ you might enjoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQEbJhcx4os



I'm surprised it shot that well! Same rifle, different stock though...

That pair (from the video) I've seen do some pretty long shots with their 338LM, all target stuff.
15 Mar 2017
@ 03:11 pm (GMT)

Andrew Murray

Re: Help with Groups - Ammo update
So in relation to the ammo....

I followed up with Winchester supplying pictures and batch codes found on the box.

They were unable to offer any information except that the ammo may have been manufactured in 1990. I was happy with this answer as there does not appear to be any information anywhere except that these were an Australian manufactured round.

The age could explain the poor grouping, along with everything else like trans-sonic flight, wind, the range as well. Interesting if nothing else.
19 Mar 2017
@ 10:23 am (GMT)

Mike Davis

Re: Help with Groups
two things
my OLD remington single shot was very accurate wee rifle given the age and open sights,if I got all flash and cleaned the bore it would shoot like crap for 30 or so rounds then go back to normal, my understanding of humble rimfire round is the waxing on projectiles means you dont need to clean the bore EVER.
also try winchester 42grn powerpoints both super and subsonic...they just the ducks nuts on game and my elcheapho norinco loves them above all others.
19 Mar 2017
@ 10:26 am (GMT)

Mike Davis

Re: Help with Groups
there are guys here in NZ shooting .22LR out to 300 yards on paper....the theory and workings out are apparently on par with centrefire out to 700 plus
...hypersonic ammo has never had reputation for good accuracy,good hitting power at 30yards for sure but not super accurate by any means.
 

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