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8mm Mauser ?

02 Dec 2012
@ 05:33 pm (GMT)

Craig Henard

Hi,Nathan got the paperback version as well as the online version and really enjoying both.
Just curious as to whether you might add the 8mm Mauser(IS or JS ) to the knowledge base?
I have an old Mauser ciggarette or guild rifle with double set triggers that I hunt with occasionaly and curious as to your oppinion of the old round and its performance on game .
Do you think for example that the .323 offers any increase in game killing over the .308 becasue of the bigger bullet or must a person go all the way to .358 to achieve any improvement over a .308 Bullet?
AnY way thanks for the books and online site as I am really enjoying both
Regards
Craig

Replies

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02 Dec 2012
@ 06:38 pm (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: 8mm Mauser ?
Hi Craig, as described in the introduction to the Knowledge base and on the blog, I am steadily uploading the full range of hunting cartridges. I am currently editing and formatting my 7.62x54R research for uploading. The 7.62x39 will follow along with the .32-20 and .32 Win Special, then I can upload the famous 8x57. While doing this, I also want to publish another book in our Long range series. So there is a lot of work to do. I am also a one man call center for 250,000 readers at the moment, a special thanks to the two people who donated this last month.

I very much like the 8x57 but yes, it does not really offer anything over the .30 cal and major differences are not seen until the .358 caliber. However; there are a few tips and tricks to get the 8x57 producing dramatic performance which we will look into. Many people are eagerly waiting for my 8x57 and 8x68 research, there are a lot of 8mm fans out there and it is a very interesting cartridge.
03 Dec 2012
@ 03:05 pm (GMT)

Craig Henard

Re: 8mm Mauser ?
Hi Nathan ,I will be looking forward to the 8mm article.
One man call center for 250,000 readers .
Quit beating around the bush Nathan and say whay you really mean ! Are ya busy ?LOL
Good Luck to you Nathan and I bet you can handle any and all that comes your way.
I dont know you other than from this site but from the way you have handled various things that I have seen since I have been here you seem to not only be very knowledgable but also I stand up guy as well.
Have a good day
Regards
Craig
03 Dec 2012
@ 05:38 pm (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: 8mm Mauser ?
Thanks Craig, thats very kind of you to say.
05 Dec 2012
@ 01:58 pm (GMT)

Craig Henard

Re: 8mm Mauser ?
Your welcom Nathan . Just calling it like I see it.
Back to the 8mm Mauser,I have only shot two different loads ,first is the PRVI factory with the 196 grain soft and the other I loade 47 Grains of H-4895 and a Sierra 150 grain bullet,once fir3ed Prvi Brass and Winchester primers.
Used both to take deer, with the Prvi (2100-2200 FPS?)is probably still going! as it penetrated the deer(150 pounds or so) completely with almost a head on shot at over 150 yards! Deer ran about 75 yards after the shot .The wound channel was about 3/4 inch all the way through with no bloodshot meat.Bullet exiting through hind leg.
With my Reload(interpolated at around 2700 FPS)deer at less than 50 yards again at a hard quartering on shot the deer about 75 pounds, deer ran about 15 steps after the shot 2 inch hole all the way through with bloodshot meat everywhere !Bullet exited right in front of hind leg.
The Prvi 196 grain soft will put 3 shots into Just a tad over 1/2 inch at 100 Yards! This from the Mauser with an old 4x Leupold M-8 4x28 gloss scope and 23 inch barrel.
My reloads however will only do 1 inch groups.
Dont know if I need to do more experimenting with the load,I originally was after approximately 2700FPS with the 150 Sierra for relatively low recoil and good killing power out to 300 yards and less(approximately 300 Savage ballistics)I started with 46 grains and worked up to 47grains with accuracy getting better as I increased the powder charge.
Regards
Craig
05 Dec 2012
@ 08:39 pm (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: 8mm Mauser ?
Whether you enhance the 150 grain load depends on whether you are going to be OK with increased wounding (meat damage).

The downside of the 8mm is low BC's. At 2700fps (which is a very common hand load MV), hydrostatic shock (see game killing section of knowledge base) is absent at 50 yards. Deer will run but kills are nevertheless 'clean' as a result of wide wounding or fast bleeding.

The low BC's of the 150gr 8mm projectiles can be overcome to some extent by loading to full velocities of 2900fps or higher. But again, this also increases wounding and also recoil. So this may prove counter productive to your needs. For me, I like a hot 8mm.

H4895 is a good powder choice and perhaps the very best for the 8mm, allowing you to achieve accuracy throughout the velocity ranges. You will probably see greater accuracy at lower velocities if higher recoil is effecting the bedding platform or stock fit and rifle weight etc. In my own experience, a K98 in good condition can produce sub MOA accuracy with the Hornady, Sierra or Speer 150 grain bullets at full velocities. Sporting variants were often capable of the same level of accuracy but it is now common to find the stocks of older sporting rifles in need of bedding and internal repair due to wood fiber compression.
05 Dec 2012
@ 10:56 pm (GMT)

Craig Henard

Re: 8mm Mauser ?
Hi Nathan,yes it does appear that I could run 2850-2900 with the 150 Grain and the bullet would still be traveling at 2600 FPS at 80-100 yards.
I could stand more recoil and it seems that the above velocities would represent an approx increase of roughly 10%.
Exra bloodshot meat in the shoulder area would be of no huge concern as It could be cleaned up and I only use the shoulders for ground meat anyway.
I am more concerned with accuracy and didn,t know if the Rifling twist just favored the longer heavier bullet or not. BUT as I mentioned when I began increasing powder charge the groups were in fact tightening.
Regards
Craig
06 Dec 2012
@ 02:27 am (GMT)

Austin Miller

Re: 8mm Mauser ?
I don't know what my barrel twist is, but I have noticed that both of my 8x57 (one is a Rem. 700 Classic, the other a surplus Yugo) like 196-200 gr. bullets.

I shot two mouflon sheep with one shot at 125 yds shooting a 200 gr. Speer Hot-Cor at 2500fps in my Yugo Mauser. Both rams were shot behind the shoulder, both dropped instantly, and the bullet exited the second ram.

I know a 200 gr. is going pretty slow past 150 yds, but I'm shooting open-sights with that particular rifle (its in original military configuration).

- Austin

06 Dec 2012
@ 04:19 pm (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: 8mm Mauser ?
Kind of organically writing half of the 8mm article here...

The 200 grain Hotcor is a stout bullet- but opens readily. It is about ideal for Elk and Red stag as well as mature wild boar. In simple terms, it does its best work with larger body weights / resistance.

When small bores (the 8mm is a small bore) are used on medium game at low velocities- and the animal drops instantly, it is often because the shot has struck high in the chest, close enough to the spine to initiate a hydrostatic shock wave where a lower chest shot would not have achieved the same result. Sometimes this will occur via a rib breaking out and upwards, a bone fragment striking the spine (but not really damaging it). From outer appearances, the shot may not appear to be high because of the dorsal vertebrae which extend above the spine for 2-3" depending on species.

On the other hand, although sheep body weights tend to be lighter than many other game animals, sheep really absorb bullet energy and it is common to notice larger than usual internal wounding in comparison to for example, using the same load on Blacktail.

Your 8mm bullet had a lot of momentum too, by opening right up on the sheep while maintianing velocity during penetration, hydrostatic shock waves can occur on the offside of the ribs providing the projectile is around 9mm in diameter and travelling at around 2200fps or if wider, travelling at 2100fps. Nevertheless, this may not have been the case with your shots as impact velocity would have been around 2200fps, losing velocity thereafter.

I have had a lot of fun with the 200 grain Hotcor over the years. The 8mm has been my father's favorite cartridge since he first picked up a surplus K98 rifle as a teenager.

Regarding the accuracy of 150 grain bullets versus 200 grain bullets. This is somewhat of an irony. The original load featured a 226gr round nose bullet at 2100fps. In 1905, Germany adopted the 154gr pointed bullet which would forever change cartridge design world wide. Muzzle velocity was a sizzling 2880fps. But- the twist rate was not altered for the light bullet. The long throat also remained unchanged. This was fairly common practice with a lot of military rifle brands/cartridges.

Having a twist rate of 1:9.45, the Mauser was much better suited to heavy bullets. With light bullets, there was a huge amount of freebore/bullet jump. Yet the rifles shot very well with 150-154gr bullets. In 1934, Germany changed back to a heavy and high BC bullet weighing 198 grains at 2500fps. This projectile had an immensely high BC of around .570 and had superior penetration of light armor (vehicles etc). There was no need to change the twist rate or throat.

The Germans also had several other variations of ammunition including the typical AP and Tracer rounds. It is also worth noting that on inspection of a 154gr FMJ military bullet, it has quite a large amount of bearing area and is not completely dumpy. When a company like Hornady designs a sporting bullet for a rifle like this, it can be very challenging. The ballisticians have to really get into the subtleties of bullet bearing surface versus twist rates etc. This research usually goes unnoticed by consumers. It is a great deal of work.

Taking the twist rates and freebore into account, it is easy to understand how a given M/K 98 rifle would more easily shoot a 200 grain bullet with accuracy in comparison to a 150 grain bullet. With older rifles which have worn throats (increasing bullet jump even further), results with 150 grain bullets can be somewhat poor. When loading 150 grain bullets, it is important to seat for concentricity (see article on determining COAL and .308 example in Knowledge base). I think it is worth experimenting with 150 grain bullets and as suggested, I have managed to achieve sub MOA accuracy with test rifles. Of interest, I write for an NZ hunting Magazine, in one of the mail bag letters this year, an older reader stated how he was enjoying my 'practical' articles and that his favorite rig was a K98 firing 150 grain (Sierra if I recall) bullets at around .5".

If I am tricking up open sighted Mausers, I prefer to try and obtain a second set of sights, then remove the original sights, grease them, then stow them with the reloading die set. The newly salvaged sights can then be modified to suit select loads and velocities. A couple of years ago I set up a rifle to shoot the 150 grain Hornady at 2980fps. I used VZ sights, modified them to print 3" high at 100 yards, group size was averaging .9" at 100 yards. That's about as good as I get with open v sights these days.

The 8mm is a lot of fun and it is great to experiment with all bullet weights. Could you guys please do me a favor and keep your camera's handy. I would very much appreciate autopsy pictures. It is a great way to contribute / donate.

06 Dec 2012
@ 07:05 pm (GMT)

Craig Henard

Re: 8mm Mauser ?
Hi Nathan,Very good read.Sounds like the the powder charge and the Coal may have to be experimented with.
The 8x57 is the only cartridge I load . I started loading over 40 years ago and gradually lost interest in it and the fact that Factory loads became so much more accurate than they had been when I was growing up. Got back into it from a limited standpoint when I got the 8mm rifle because I wasn,t going to be satisfied with the Factory loads available to me as all I could find was 170 grain loads at 22-2300 FPS.I searched all over the Internet trying to find a factory load with a 150grain at higher velocities but could not find anything so bought a Lee handpress and scales and dies and other needed things(bullets ,primers,powder and I was off to the races again !
Thanks
Regards, Craig
06 Dec 2012
@ 07:33 pm (GMT)

Austin Miller

Re: 8mm Mauser ?
@ Craig:

Sellier & Bellot as a 8x57 loaded with a Nosler Partition at 764 m/s or 2500 fps.

http://www.sellier-bellot.cz/rifle-ammunition-detail.php?ammunition=31&product=237
06 Dec 2012
@ 07:54 pm (GMT)

Craig Henard

Re: 8mm Mauser ?
Hi Austin,T
Thanks for the information.

Do you know where i could find a factory load with a 150gr or so at 2700 FPS or more ?
Thanks
Regards ,Craig
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