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> TTSX & GMX Style Bullets, and Velocity Increases
TTSX & GMX Style Bullets, and Velocity Increases
@ 09:28 am (GMT) |
Ryan NafeFellas,I’ve finally decided to try an all-copper bullet for deer this year. I got a couple boxes of Barnes’ Vor-TX 130 grain TTSX to try out. And yeah I really mean it this time, this is what’s going to be used this year. I stopped flip-flopping for the season. But I have a question for you guys regarding this bullet and the similar 125 grain GMX from Hornady, and just the all-copper bullets in general: - This bullet will obviously not shed any significant amount of weight, which means that (unlike an A-Max, for example) it’s ability to produce wide wounding is almost entirely velocity dependent. - Given that situation, will a direct and large increase in impact velocity, say 500 FPS, produce a proportional increase in the size of wound channels? Or is there a point of no additional gains, where the performance basically maxes out, regardless of increased impact velocity? The reason I’m asking is because loading these lightweight homogeneous bullets to magnum-class velocities could be a very good solution for creating really large wounds and subsequent fast kills without throwing tons of lead around the carcass, in the way that the A-Max/ELD-M would. And this might also provide the benefit of all-angle penetration on stuff up to the ~ 250lb. mark I’m trying to kill. |
Replies
@ 11:13 am (GMT) |
Warwick MarflittRe: TTSX & GMX Style Bullets, and Velocity IncreasesWhat calibre 308? |
@ 01:52 pm (GMT) |
Andrew MurrayRe: TTSX & GMX Style Bullets, and Velocity IncreasesWhen I read that question Warwick I thought you'd lost mind... I thought you were asking what calibre the 308 was... as if 308s came in multiple calibres.On the plus side it's nice to see calibre written the non-American way. |
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@ 05:57 pm (GMT) |
Warwick MarflittRe: TTSX & GMX Style Bullets, and Velocity IncreasesAs a loyal British subject. I'mObliged to speak in the Queens England.! With invisible punctuation to confuse. |
@ 12:06 pm (GMT) |
Michael ToddRe: TTSX & GMX Style Bullets, and Velocity IncreasesHi Ryan,can't comment on the GMX but i started using the 130gr TTSX in a 30.06 in March this year. I've shot 13 deer in 13 shots with them from 55yds to 301yds. The wound channels have been consistent from about 100-300yds with the ones under 100yds being slightly more destructive but all the deer have been heart/lung shot and none made it more than 30yds before expiring. Starting velocity has been 3150fps. with a strike velocity of approx 2350fps at 300yds. which was on a 2yr old Sika stag. It struck below the mid line of the ribs in the leg crease, broke 2 ribs on the way in and 2 on exit, he made 30yds after the shot. Give them a try and the faster you can push them the better/further they will work! Mike |
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@ 03:41 pm (GMT) |
Ryan NafeRe: TTSX & GMX Style Bullets, and Velocity IncreasesWarwick, it’s just my standard .308 Winchester. A Browning X-Bolt Micro Hunter 20” barrel, circa 2009 manufacture date. Pretty excellent little rifle, it’s basically a compact version of the standard Hunter model with walnut stock and blued carbon steel. Slightly shorter length of pull and 2” less barrel than the standard model. Since the second box of shells, it’s shot about 1 or 1.5 MOA with everything I’ve put through it. Really a shame that they discontinued this particular model. I’ll probably cry and hold a burial ceremony when the barrel eventually gives out, no kidding.—- Michael, thanks for the information. It’s interesting that the performance is that consistent, good to hear. I was pretty impressed at the listed BC for the bullet, I mean .350 is pretty good for such a lightweight .30 caliber. I think your starting velocity is about 150 FPS faster than mine, though I still have to chronograph these. Barnes claims 3,125 in these for the .308 Win, but I’m using a 20” barrel so my assumption is that they’ll be about 3,000 FPS from my rifle. I don’t really have any shots longer than about 125 yards so they should be quite nice regardless. A couple questions if you don’t mind: - Are you usually using a rear lung shot (just behind the shoulder, ribs/lungs/ribs) or a direct shoulder shot (muscle/bone/vitals/bone/muscle) ? - What is the live weight of the deer? (For example, mine are generally between 175lb. and 250lb., average is about 200lb. Big northern whitetail with lots of excellent food sources around) —- If these bullets prove useful, I may just buy the bullets themselves after this hunting season and make some reloads for my uncle’s .30-06 and my .308 |
@ 01:24 am (GMT) |
mark korteRe: TTSX & GMX Style Bullets, and Velocity IncreasesRyan - My admittedly less than extensive take on this (2 elk and several whitetails in the weight range you listed above) is to generally go a bit forward of the shoulder or try and take out one shoulder. I shoot a 7x57 w/ 120 TTSX and even at higher velocities the wound channel is very small. Remember - the good part is that even if you go for the shoulder you will be losing a relatively small amount of meat - "eat around the hole" as others here have said. "meat saver shots" tend to blow right thru unless striking bone - more like an arrow wound. The info shared here suggested limiting my range to where impact velocities stayed at or above 2600. For my rifle thats around 200 yards with the loads amped up about as high as I felt safe with in my rifle. I have no idea what your range would be. I did notice a marked increase in accuracy, but that was probably just due to handloads as opposed to factory loads. Again - limited experience, but for what its worth.... |
@ 06:50 pm (GMT) |
Mike DavisRe: TTSX & GMX Style Bullets, and Velocity IncreasesRyan...do you often go into a Coca cola shop and ask for a pepsi?????you started out asking what to do to improove knockdown preformance over your .308 winchester at sub 125yard range....... you got lots of answers as to what would work..... then different cartridges...again lots of answers NOW you asking if a mono type load in same .308 will be the bees knees .you are one step better than using FMJ load if you dont hit anything solid to help projectile expand,yes the monos work well at fast speed BUT you are going backwards in energy transpher..... you will NEED to break the shoulders or neck to ensure animal doesnt move off.... the 110grn barnes MIGHT be better...but you end up chasing your tail to get the same preformance you already have.... if what Ive typed offends you ........ooops. its as polite as this grumpy old man gets. |
@ 10:21 pm (GMT) |
Lane SalvatoRe: TTSX & GMX Style Bullets, and Velocity IncreasesRyan,If you don't have Nathan's cartridges book you need to get it. You are asking questions that are counterintuitive to someone who has studied Nathan's work. From the free side of the site, I suggest you read the following: https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/Homogenous+copper+bullets+can+be+inhumane.html There is no reason for you to look at homogeneous bullets based upon all your previous questions unless you just want them for wanting sake. Lead-free is better served by DRT Terminal Shock or RWS if you are in Europe. I have seen homogeneous copper fired out of a 300 Win. Mag. into a Barasingha deer at 50 yards do absolutely nothing when both lungs were hit. The deer just ran. So he was shot again at about 75 yards and just kept running until he bled out. Might as well use a bow and arrow. I've seen the same thing with homogeneous copper fired into a Scimitar Horned Oryx out of a 270 at 60 yards. He just takes off running until he eventually bleeds out. Nathan has done enormous amounts of research on this subject, has provided free information (above), and has written an extensive cartridge book that's now in its second edition. If you want fast killing then you really need to get the book and follow it. I wish not to be offensive but I want you to get the fast killing results that you want and that the quarry deserves. |
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@ 11:12 pm (GMT) |
Warwick MarflittRe: TTSX & GMX Style Bullets, and Velocity IncreasesMike 😆#Grumpy old man.👍 Ryan the best bet is to read all of Nathans books. Re read until the lights come on. Why...... because once you absorb the knowledge and understand what Nathan has shared. You can answer all of your own questions yourself. The books are a bit like medicine. It doesn't work if it's left in the bottle. They've got to be consumed and swallowed thru ya eye's and cognitively digested. For example using what we know. To find out what we don't.You have a Mono bullet. It has a narrower wound channel It has a higher velocity It has good penetration Deer run if poorly wounded deer need legs to run If I aim forward to break leg bones Heart, lungs, autonomous plexus are in close proximity to the front legs. Break legs and damage front vital organs deer can't run and if you have put together a good shot Bambi will be dead in seconds and there with a broken leg. If not instant Death deer is anchored for a 2nd shot. It's just a case of being prepared and knowing what to do and how to do it well in the field with changing conditions. Time at the range testing and improving your skills proving that what you have read works and is what the books are intended for. The photos of your success will look awesome and not disappoint the Old Grumpy man.... |
@ 12:15 am (GMT) |
Anders ÖsterbergRe: TTSX & GMX Style Bullets, and Velocity IncreasesInteresting....I shoot 150 gr TTSX in 308win . I have shot 3 Foxes , 5 RoeDeer , 20+ Moose with it . The foxes died instantly with fistsized outholes... Roedeere jumps and run aprox 50m and pile up... Moose run aprox 50-70m and dies... , aiming for top hartshots , stright up the leg and center ! The longest I've shot a Moose is 180m , and the bullet was as in the commercial add . I seldom get any bullets to look at but he ones I get often look as advertised, if its not hit the sholderjoint as it's do sometimes...quartering shoots... No problem with hevy bones ..., only that the bulket can shed a wing or two... |
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@ 12:30 am (GMT) |
Anders ÖsterbergRe: TTSX & GMX Style Bullets, and Velocity IncreasesIf one planing to shoot open countryshots and the final hit-velocity is lower than 2000fs , I would not recommend it !For longshots ... , I think some of the softer bullets like the ELDx or similar is the key to success . |
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@ 04:49 am (GMT) |
Ryan NafeRe: TTSX & GMX Style Bullets, and Velocity IncreasesTo Mike Davis:Quote: you started out asking what to do to improove knockdown preformance over your .308 winchester at sub 125yard range....... you got lots of answers as to what would work..... then different cartridges...again lots of answers
Yes and all of those ideas are completely independent of each other. I’ve said multiple times that there’s no real problem with the .308 and that I’m just curious of other levels of performance, whence the current search for a small-bore magnum or a medium bore or a large bore magnum. Quote: NOW you asking if a mono type load in same .308 will be the bees knees.
No I’m not, it would be great if you could actually use a direct quote instead of straw manning me. Quote: if what Ive typed offends you ........ooops. its as polite as this grumpy old man gets.
I don’t really get offended by anything at all, it takes a lot to make me cry. What I would say is that it would be productive to actually understand the ideas in question before trying to rebut them. |
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@ 04:56 am (GMT) |
Ryan NafeRe: TTSX & GMX Style Bullets, and Velocity IncreasesTo Lane Salvato:Quote: You are asking questions that are counterintuitive to someone who has studied Nathan's work.
Like what? You’re making a broad assertion that’s actually too vague to be proven wrong or right, so you need to be specific if you’re trying to get anywhere. Quote: There is no reason for you to look at homogeneous bullets based upon all your previous questions unless you just want them for wanting sake.
It would be nice to have a set of supporting facts to go along with that assertion. In other words, support your claim. Quote: If you want fast killing then you really need to get the book and follow it.
I have both rifle books and the cartridges book. |
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@ 05:20 am (GMT) |
Ryan NafeRe: TTSX & GMX Style Bullets, and Velocity IncreasesThese are DIRECT QUOTES from the knowledgebase articles on the .308 and .30-06, respectively:“The Barnes 130 grain TSX is a good all around bullet for game weighing up to 150kg with relative ease - covering a huge cross section of game species. The 130 grain TSX, due to its weight and SD, meets great resistance on impact, resulting in fast killing out to and often beyond 300 yards (2200fps).” And: “The Barnes 130 grain TSX is a good all-round bullet for game weighing up to 150kg. It is highly recommended that readers wishing to experiment with the Barnes 30 caliber bullets for use on Deer, experiment with this projectile. Meat damage is as per usual minimal, regardless of violent internal wounding. The TSX really is a good meat retrieval bullet, proving useful in the .30-06 out to ranges of around 400 yards.” Consider what’s written above in those quotes, consider what’s been observed and noted in this thread by Michael Todd, and then compare that to your broad generalizations about how all homogeneous copper bullets are slow killers. For fuck’s sake, gentlemen, it’s not very complicated. And to top it all off, nobody has even remotely answered the original question I asked in this thread. |
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@ 07:56 am (GMT) |
Lane SalvatoRe: TTSX & GMX Style Bullets, and Velocity IncreasesRyan, sorry. Didn't mean to offend. It's of course your choice as to what you use. My experience with multiple species using 30 caliber magnums at high velocity is that the homogeneous copper has a lot to be desired. There are other excellent hunters that disagree completely with me. Likely that's not going to change. Maybe you should play with them, see how fast you can get them going without having aerodynamic problems and then see what happens this year hunting. Your experience in your own situation will likely be the best thing you can have.I have a personal bias toward bullets that shed weight and I can be a bit too opinionated about that sometimes. |
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@ 08:41 am (GMT) |
Ryan NafeRe: TTSX & GMX Style Bullets, and Velocity IncreasesLane, the specific problem is “the homogeneous copper leaves a lot to be desired”This is not specific enough to actually be proven right or wrong. For example, changing from the 130 grain .308” to the 165 grain .308” makes such a large change in the terminal performance that you can’t make that generalization and have it mean anything substantive. It’s like if someone said, “All trucks are slow.” Well, actually there are many trucks with a higher power/weight ratio than most cars. And if you’re talking about very muddy and rough roads, then there are virtually no cars that can keep up with a decent 4x4 truck, making the truck much faster. It’s a complicated question that can’t actually be answered with generalizations. |
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@ 08:56 am (GMT) |
Lane SalvatoRe: TTSX & GMX Style Bullets, and Velocity IncreasesRyan,I just thought that relating slow wounding and dead runs using a 30 caliber magnum shooting heavy bullets would somewhat correlate with slower 30 calibers using lighter bullets. If it's hard to get it done with one, it seems it would be even harder with the other. But there's no animosity here. I do believe you should try them and see how you fare. You may end up loving them. I do wish you the best for sure. After all, we're all hunters. We're the same community. |
@ 08:56 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: TTSX & GMX Style Bullets, and Velocity IncreasesHi Ryan, to your original question, yes that is correct. The trouble is that when a bullet is velocity dependent, the performance is not uniform. To obtain a fast kill, impact velocity does need to be above 2600fps. Below this speed, performance with copper tends to be less dramatic than what you have experienced with the SST. The one aspect that I liked about the 130gr (and other copper pills of this weight) was that they generally met enough resistance to produce a clean kill. The low SD helped a good deal. But- I aim to break the shoulders or at least one shoulder. Used this way, I have been able to obtain good performance to 2200fps. So just keep in mind these 'ifs buts and maybes'.But as far as a dramatic change goes from your SST load, you may find (depending on local game weights) that the slide rule balances out in both directions, slow soft versus fast stout can balance out. Hence why I suggested increasing over all cartridge power and weight to create change. Your SST load was pretty much in the middle. All of this aside, you have the ammo so why not give it a go. Your ranges will be short so hopefully you will experience good results. But do be mindful of shot placement with copper. |
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@ 12:36 pm (GMT) |
Warwick MarflittRe: TTSX & GMX Style Bullets, and Velocity IncreasesRead the other Three books Complete the circle of knowledge. If you ask a question here the answer you get may not always be what you want to hear. It will be honest and open to respectful discussion. Make of it what you will. But keep your head and respect for yourself and others. Check your ego and spend 24 hours thinking about what n why it is said. I'm sure you'll learn about yourself and others along with coolStuff about all things shooting......Having Grace and being grateful for the answers we've all found through Steph n Nathans site and hard work is our greatest discovery. Take care gents . |
@ 01:00 pm (GMT) |
Bob MavinRe: TTSX & GMX Style Bullets, and Velocity IncreasesThe 130 TTX needs velocity to work well, I didn't like them, but they're OK out to 250m in my 30-06.... Load it up and try them |
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@ 02:49 pm (GMT) |
Ryan NafeRe: TTSX & GMX Style Bullets, and Velocity IncreasesNathan, thanks. I ran some calculations on the likely impact velocity, and even on the very cold days (zero Fahrenheit) it will be above 2,600 out to 125 yards, assuming I’m getting an even 3,000 FPS muzzle velocity. But even if it’s as low as 2,950 FPS, that still keeps it above the 2,600 mark to about 110 yards.But yeah, on the shot placement, I’ll try the forwards aim point again with these. That’s partly why I wanted to try the copper solids, I’m hoping that I can actually eat the entire front quarter without having to be mindful of a bunch of lead fragments. I understand that it’s likely still a bit of a wash from overall performance of the previous setup, but I think light/tough/fast is something worth trying in this particular rifle. This isn’t an attempt at a dramatic performance change, just a new direction with this particular rifle setup. My guess is that I won’t have a new rifle ready for this season, so I’m operating under the assumption that I’m using the trusty .308 again. |
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@ 02:59 pm (GMT) |
Ryan NafeRe: TTSX & GMX Style Bullets, and Velocity IncreasesWarwick it’s not about if the answer is what I want to hear. It’s about whether or not the answer is actually an answer, or if it’s only an attempt at an answer.The reason I’m asking some of these questions is because I really care about having a coherent and reality-based understanding of this stuff. The questions I often have pop up in my head about these topics are things I often need to have a dialogue about, because I view it as being very unreliable to interpret data without running your interpretations by others. I need peer-reviewed thinking in order to have some confidence that I actually know what’s going on. It’s basically because I’m a nerd who studies philosophy for fun. |
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@ 03:29 pm (GMT) |
Warwick MarflittRe: TTSX & GMX Style Bullets, and Velocity IncreasesSome of your questions feel like they're more about how they're answered than the answers themselves.Well meaning replies getting turned in circles and end up like uncooked cake mixture. I hope that we're not being used as guinea pigs for a university thesis? It's been done before by Australian universities. They studied kiwis on Nzdating sites and got in trouble for breach of privacy. I've got friends who are shrinks and just can't help themselves asking loaded leading to questions? Funny but I thought this many posts ago and have been wondering??? Enough talk . Load some bullets and do your own testing. Show us the results and see if we got the same? Good luck 😊 |
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@ 06:04 am (GMT) |
Ryan NafeRe: TTSX & GMX Style Bullets, and Velocity IncreasesHa, no I’m not affiliated with the University of Australia or any other research organization.Posing as someone that I’m not is just too dishonest and manipulative for my taste, regardless of the end goals. I don’t think the ends justify the means in most cases because I think the means are too influential on the individual and the collective society. If they’re pushed below the ends in terms of their value, then people can be lead to do things that would otherwise be considered deeply wrong/evil. |
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@ 09:58 pm (GMT) |
Warwick MarflittRe: TTSX & GMX Style Bullets, and Velocity IncreasesThat Reminds me of that Darcy Clay song.." Jesus I was Evil " https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eKX8ntjWeas |
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