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> Creedmoor or 6.5x55 with a shortish barrel?
Creedmoor or 6.5x55 with a shortish barrel?
@ 12:54 pm (GMT) |
Michael RoachHey everyone, a friend and I are looking at jointly purchasing a new rifle, I quess to experiment and fill a gap.( he owns 3 270's and I have one long/heavy 270 a 45-70 and a 223) We have agreed that rifle needs to be lightish accurate and low recoiling. We are looking at a Tikka TX3 either plastic or laminate stock in either 6.5 creedmoor or 6.5x55 (Most of our hunting is well within 120m so the 270 is perhaps a bit too much) however we dont want to retard our ability to reach out. This is where we are undecided. I have read through Nathans books that the 6.5x55 prefers a 24 inch barrel and I have read else where that the creedmoor is quite efficent with a 22 inch barrel. I understand that the 6.5x55 has more case capacity and I can reload, whilst my friend is factory all the way. and we have both agreed that rifle will wear a suppressor. the overall goal is to produce a light and compact combination that could, with practice and reloading take a small goat or fallow deer out to 500m ( as I write this there are 9 goats in our paddock about 350m from my balcony) and wouldnt be out of place taking a red deer hind/spiker out to 300m or a stag close in. I have studied the reloading 6.5 cal sections extensively and can only assume that the various projectiles behave the same regardless. Does the creedmoor have an advantage in a shorter barrel? it definately seems to have an advantage from a factory load and brass availabilty perspective. So yah help please, we have both found rifles waiting to be purchased. I have been lining up 6.5x55 reloading components for the last 2 weeks as it appears to be in short supply. |
Replies
@ 07:56 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Creedmoor or 6.5x55 with a shortish barrel?Hi Michael, perhaps the best way to start is to try and put this into context.Your friend has a .270, likely with a 22" barrel. If he runs factory 145gr ELD-X Precision hunter ammo, it will likely be producing about 2930fps. Recoil should be fairly light, especially if the rifle is muffled as most are these days. Recoil might be a bit sharp if the rifle is unsupressed, extremely light, optics poorly positioned, the trigger heavy and the rifle not held properly. The Creedmoor fires basically the same bullet (143gr ELD-X) at around 2700fps from a 22" barrel. So, assuming you have a goat at 350m, you can take a shot at 350, observe the kill / wounding and note that this is exactly what will occur if using the Creedmoor at 250m. Up to a certain point (as far as factory hunting loads go), it really is as simple as that. You can also just as easily run a start load in your .270 to achieve the same result. Going a little further down the rabbit hole, the .270 lacks soft bullet options for very long ranges while both the .270 and 6.5 lack heavy bullet options in order to deliver high energy out to long ranges. Both have their limitations which go beyond comparisons of 22 and 24" barrels. Of the two, the 6.5 has the potential to deliver a wider wound at long ranges using select projectiles. But at closer ranges, about the only thing you will notice is that animals run further after being hit with the Creedmoor (depending on shot placement / shooting single animal versus successive shots culling etc). All of the above aside. If your friend does not want to get into hand loading but wants to take longer shots, then the Creedmoor is not a bad way to go for hunting Fallow and goats. It is in essence the modern 1300cc bubble car of the gun world (if you like that sort of thing). Do not buy a 6.5x55 if you do not intend to hand load. If the rifle is to be light, you will both need to use the exact same technique when shooting. The slightest deviation will result in 1 MOA or more lateral / vertical deviation. A suppressor can help to mitigate some of this. As far as recoil goes, a well baffled muffler takes the sting out of most common medium game cartridges. One can expect very low recoil from cartridges as powerful as the .30-06. But please pay attention to notes on threading / fitting as described in my book - Long Range Rifles, second edition. The above answers to your question are very superficial and not really all that helpful because my answers were given from only one perspective. Successful hunting and shooting is a greatly empowering, life enriching process. But in todays world, a guy may want to purchase a new rifle because he thinks that spending money equates to satisfaction (especially these days with regards to long range shooting). Having adopted this mentality, he refuses to pull apart his existing rifle to clean and tune it, doesn't want to practice at the range and doesn't want to take time to investigate hand loading, bullet performance, scope dialing or long range trajectory mapping. He wants something new and to his mind exotic and with a scope that does all of his thinking for him. The old gun is traded, the new one arrives and is treated in the same manner as the previous rifle generating the same result. The honeymoon was fine but the divorce was inevitable. The lesson being - there is little satisfaction to be gained in life without some discomfort or adversity. A new rifle will be nice for you to share, but it would be most helpful if you are both on the same page with regards to discussing and performing the leg work required in order to gain a satisfactory result at the longer ranges you wish to shoot out to. Hope that helps a bit. |
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@ 04:27 pm (GMT) |
Michael RoachRe: Creedmoor or 6.5x55 with a shortish barrel?Thank you for your reply Nathan, Yep the 1300 bubble car doesnt entertain my ego either haha, please let me further explain the situation. In a way we are trying to replace an inaccurate and shortened 223. I currently own a somewhat heavy barreled mod 700 (CDL 270) (24inch/unsurpressed + needs a better scope) thats accurate as hell but heavy and a bit unweldy and a Marlin 1985 45-70 ( close bush gun) neither is appropriate as a pure meat gun on goats and small deer,at least in my hunting conditions. My friends primary is a Tikka M series 270( 22 inch/supressed) that he successfully uses out to 500.( he is happy with said rifle though finacially entertains the idea of something new as he can definately shoot!) I am trying to fill in a gap ( I mean why spend the money on a new 223 for a small deer or goat rifle when the bigger calibre costs the same? my bushpigged rifle has done its job so far ,however I am uncomfortable with the calibre past 80m. It will be me that breaks in/tunes/ reloads said rifle..I 100% respect what your hinting at, however the question still remains, do I go swede with a 24 inch barrel as standard ( can obviously be shortened) or go creedmoor 22 inch as standard. |
@ 11:36 pm (GMT) |
David LandwehrRe: Creedmoor or 6.5x55 with a shortish barrel?Hi Michael. If as you say you want a light compact combination go with the Creed.You will likely be able to get more velocity out of the Swede, but not according to my reloading manual, which I can only assume would be due to safety of firing in older rifles of unknown metallurgy. But at 500m, the Creed with correct prjectile will be zipping along at 2,000fps so will expand and get the job done on the game mentioned. |
@ 06:39 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Creedmoor or 6.5x55 with a shortish barrel?Hi Michael. Your remaining question is relevant only if you and your friend have agreed to put a suppressor on a gun with a 24 inch barrel. If you plan to cut it to 22 inches to accommodate the suppressor, then you’re asking whether the Swede will have a performance edge over the Creedmoor in a 22 inch barrel. The answer is: It’s a negligible. |
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@ 07:58 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Creedmoor or 6.5x55 with a shortish barrel?Hi Michael, again based on what you have described with your friend not really wanting to get into hand loading, the Creedmoor may be a better fit. Although hand loads in a modern Swede rifle with 24" barrel may produce 2750 to 2850fps, factory loads tend to be very weak. Also, you may want to look again at current Tikka specs as a long barreled 6.5 T3 may not be an option (see bottom of this post).The Swede does have a slight edge (with hand loads) but if you really want to ensure that you are not missing out on anything in comparison to the .270's, then perhaps look into the 6.5 PRC. Any of the 6.5 would certainly be a refreshing step up from your inaccurate .223 and well suited to lighter bodied animals. Regarding Tikka barrel lengths - they do vary a bit these days. The current Tikka Roughtec and Veil are listed as having 24" barrels but this information is misleading. The rifles are fitted with muzzle brakes over a relatively generous muzzle thread diameter (compared to ridiculous local gunsmith practices) however the barrel lengths without the brake are 22" (including magnums). Normally, Tikka furnish a 22" barrel for non magnum sporters and a 24" barrel for their magnums. But as suggested, the Veil and Roughtec differ. As a contrast to this, Tikka list a 24" barrel option for the T3 Lite 6.5 PRC. The current T3 6.5x55 is listed at 22.4". So not much advantage to the Swede over the Creedmoor but definitely a bit more welly from the PRC. |
@ 03:38 pm (GMT) |
Mike DavisRe: Creedmoor or 6.5x55 with a shortish barrel?OK...so you both have good accurate .270s..yours is a bit heavy and LOUD...why do you say not suitable as a meat gun for goats small deer??? you talking ranges out to 350 normal and occasionally out to 500....well Batman,if you going out to 500 on either of those yo uwill assumably rangefind and dial up..... so what you use is a moot point to some degree,whats a few clicks between friends??? 300-350 is childsplay if your .270 is accurate..if a bush hobbit like me can do it,you should be laughing. sounds like you have plenty of range to sight in,double check drops etc. 140grn hornady sp are dirt cheap and oh so boringly accurate... they make boring wee holes in deer than boringly fall over dead.... if your loosing too much meat,change WHERE you aim on animal..flipside if you not dropping them fast enough,chnge where your aiming also in same vein...your going to reload so change projectiles...if you want soft..oh boy are there some good options out there..if you want not so much damage,again lots of options... yeah true there arent any really slippery heavy weight options.. but you can do it without latest flashharry jobbies... a couple more clicks and Bobs your aunties main squeaze. if your .223 is a dud...possibly consider a rebarrel ammunition for it is still cheaper and every man needs a .223 or 2 or 3 such a lot of fun to be had and a great preformer..which brings up the OTHER option if rebarreling...a fast twist .223 barrel,1;8 sort of deal and chuck 70-80 grn projectiles so its nearly a .243 plenty of folks doing so to great effect why not a 6.5?? because it will be that close to the .270 unless you reload carefully that you may as well just use the .270..which you can also reload carefully for. |
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@ 03:03 pm (GMT) |
Michael RoachRe: Creedmoor or 6.5x55 with a shortish barrel?hey Mike, loud (and weight) is an issue for me because I am a commercial diver with a history of working in arboriculture (chainsaws) and I was also in the army. 2 months ago, I was told by the audiologist if i lose any more hearing in my right ear then she cant sign me off for my annual dive medical.. So long story short,If my ears ring it could end my career. My 270 is a rem CDL with a heavy 24 inch barrel, If I add a suppressor she will be 26 inch at least.. Not really appropriate for bush bashing with the occassional long shot on goats/small deer. I want to keep said 270 as I have spent alot of time and $ getting it to shoot well. I believe what I require is a middle mark ( my mate is just coming along for the ride luckily) A rifle that could take a red stag at 150m, a doe at 300 a 45kg goat at 500...I will then decide if I want to keep the 270 or build an actual designated long range rig, with appropriate scope profile etc etc[b] |
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@ 03:32 pm (GMT) |
Michael RoachRe: Creedmoor or 6.5x55 with a shortish barrel?PS. this is all based on the idea that I can shoot well. I am going to progressively increase range based on my proven capacity, I need to build muscle memory with said rifle which is why I dont want to jump from one to the next |
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@ 07:52 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Creedmoor or 6.5x55 with a shortish barrel?Hi Michael, bush bashing snap shots on Red Stag (with typical shot placement error) is quite a different game to popping off the occasional goat or Fallow deer sunning itself against the bush edge.As a matter of perspective, in the U.S, a large NZ Red deer (if it were encountered) would be considered much the same as an Elk. In many instances depending on age and location, the body weights do overlap. If you ask a U.S hunter about Elk cartridges, he will likely talk .30 cal or .338. But over here, we of course have Eberneezer Scrooge who likes to throw around terms like cost efficiency or state that "you don't need an Elephant gun" or "my uncle was a professional meat hunter and he only used a..." most of this talk being tall poppy syndrome - self absorbed, penny pinching small minded thinking. It sounds to be like you want an all around rifle that can tackle large animals in close at various angles as well as some longer range shots, but without pushing too far and without much weight. What you are describing, is a bog standard Tikka T3 .308 Winchester. If you want a bit more punch and a little less wind drift, the .30-06 is a truly great allrounder (and produces very light recoil when suppressed). The .308 is easy enough to come by, the .30-06 a little harder to find just now due to the popularity (importation) of the 6.5 Creedmoor. Alas, its very difficult now to steer folk away from fashion and popular opinions. |
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@ 09:40 am (GMT) |
Michael RoachRe: Creedmoor or 6.5x55 with a shortish barrel?hi Nathan, I am definately in agreement about the light calibre fad that seems to prevail in NZ, whenever someone tells me they use a 223 for everything I think ( how many animals have escaped wounded by you hero) To put it into perspective every animal I have shot in the last 2 years has been under 50kg. I havent had an opportunity to shoot a red deer because there are none on the properties I hunt on. IIf I had the chance to shoot a Red Stag I would think twice as I 100% retrieve any animal I shoot as a rule. If I was hunting thick bush I would carry my 45-70. What I mean by bush bashing is I am often on my hands and knees crawling through native scrub and gorse in order to either get close enough to make a shot or to have a back drop that doesnt include a farmhouse. I have already been stuck in a gorse bush with my 270 ( silently swearing haha) |
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@ 01:01 pm (GMT) |
Michael RoachRe: Creedmoor or 6.5x55 with a shortish barrel?My only option has been the 223 based on those conditions and I have put a self imposed 60m metre limit based on calibre and accuracy. I have had animals wander off out of range multiple times so I have been able to make the shot. I hought my 6.5 idea was a good one. the creedmoor was my last choice ,I looked at 22-250 ( too light) 243 ( barrel too short and bullet too light. Thought a 25-06 might be an option ( apparently to risky and I cant find a new one).. The 6.5 seems to fight the bill. All the new tikkas seem to kick hard so I am attemting to match the recoil with that.. Thoughts on the Tikka 308 combination? hmm that may very well eventuate one day. I used to shoot my fathers 308 when I was 16 it fits lots of bills but at the moment I would have to sell my 270. ( my mates not going to go halves in a 308) It took me over 2 years to find / rebarrel/ retrigger/ bed etc etc it owes me time and money.. I think it would do my head in if I sold it for a substancial loss. I have a friend who has a newish Tikka 308 shortened suppressed etc so perhaps I will get him to let me shoot it so I can see if it fits. |
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@ 01:25 pm (GMT) |
Mike DavisRe: Creedmoor or 6.5x55 with a shortish barrel?Quote: hi Nathan, I am definately in agreement about the light calibre fad that seems to prevail in NZ, whenever someone tells me they use a 223 for everything I think ( how many animals have escaped wounded by you hero) To put it into perspective every animal I have shot in the last 2 years has been under 50kg. )
right...Ive sat on my hands for 24hrs before typing this out so I HOPE that I can now type out reply without too much venom under 150 yards I will back myself with my .223 to take out anything smaller than a big red stag everyday of the week..with a few provisos I have the correct TYPE of ammunition in rifle animal is not fired up and is stationary or feeding happily Im not huffing n puffing or trying to shoot while standing EG I have got good rest and can guarantee to put that tiny wee bit of metal where it needs to go I can catagourically state I have not wounded a deer or pig with my .223 and Ive shot and retrieved about 30 over the last 25 years using it. you see its ALL about control...knowing when NOT TO SHOOT is more important than knowing when to shoot. how terribly in accurate is this .223???? and have you got someone else to confirm this??? reason I ask..you have big kicking .45/70 and heavy .270 so a lightweight .223 is completely different rifle to use... my last 3 fallow have all been shot with a break open single shot .222 remington.. 2 were a single shot kill the 3rd took me 4 due to the little hua not playing ball at wouldnt stand up so first shot wasnt ideal,next two anchored it in TALL tussocks while it was on the move and final was a labotamy type deal at 50 yards standing.... if suppressed recoil is no longer an issue....a suppressed .270 is a wonderful thing..long n heavy doesnt matter if your shooting in semi open country..and if your going bashing around in the gorse..take the .45/70 yo ucan stretch its barrel you will just need to allow for more drop.... that big slow hunk of lead will still kill,it will just be slower to do so. Philip Holden wrote a very good chapter called 222 the controversial one way back when some of the readers of this post were still a twinkle in Daddies eye...... the points made there are still relevant today,the good the bad and the ugly.... a fast twist barrel and heavier projectiles have upped the .223s game A LOT but its still a little gun.... perfect for littler animals if you do your part Im no hero and I DONT LEAVE ANIMALS WOUNDED I do however use a .223 at times to good effect ,if Im targeting red deer I take the .270 most times. |
@ 03:15 pm (GMT) |
David HartleyRe: Creedmoor or 6.5x55 with a shortish barrel?Quote: Hi Michael, bush bashing snap shots on Red Stag (with typical shot placement error) is quite a different game to popping off the occasional goat or Fallow deer sunning itself against the bush edge.
As a matter of perspective, in the U.S, a large NZ Red deer (if it were encountered) would be considered much the same as an Elk. In many instances depending on age and location, the body weights do overlap. If you ask a U.S hunter about Elk cartridges, he will likely talk .30 cal or .338. But over here, we of course have Eberneezer Scrooge who likes to throw around terms like cost efficiency or state that "you don't need an Elephant gun" or "my uncle was a professional meat hunter and he only used a..." most of this talk being tall poppy syndrome - self absorbed, penny pinching small minded thinking. It sounds to be like you want an all around rifle that can tackle large animals in close at various angles as well as some longer range shots, but without pushing too far and without much weight. What you are describing, is a bog standard Tikka T3 .308 Winchester. If you want a bit more punch and a little less wind drift, the .30-06 is a truly great allrounder (and produces very light recoil when suppressed). The .308 is easy enough to come by, the .30-06 a little harder to find just now due to the popularity (importation) of the 6.5 Creedmoor. Alas, its very difficult now to steer folk away from fashion and popular opinions. Nathan, the 6.5 Creedmoor isn’t a fashion or a fad, it’s beaten those tags fair and square long ago. It is ubiquitous because it is an exceptionally capable mid range medium game cartridge. It’s probably about time for you to rethink the longstanding anti-Creedmoor position! It’s close to perfect for bog standard New Zealand deer shooting that Michael Roach has described. Heaps of different rifles in all configurations, heaps of quality factory ammunition to choose from, and no shortage (anymore) of components for the reloaders. Not so powerful that it will smash a close range fallow to bits but plenty powerful enough to knock over large red deer at a few hundred metres. I say this as someone that shoots a great deal of red deer every year from last year‘s fawns to very heavy red stags. In the safe there’s a couple of centrefire .22 cal options, couple of 6mm options, a 6.5mm Creedmoor, a 7mm and two .308 cal options. All of these rifles have all shot a great many deer. I generally take the one .308 Winchester simply because it is in a carbine / light chassis config with the best optics setup for the majority of situations I find myself in. When I pick up the 6.5 it doesn’t even cross my mind that it might not be up to the job. Not so much as a second thought. 143gr ELD-X into the boiler room, job done. This isn’t “popular opinion”, it’s experience. There’s no game animal in New Zealand that can survive even a light expanding / fragmenting projectile into the vitals. I happily shoot reds with a cheap & cheerful “Ebeneezer Scrouge” Howa Mini .223 and 70gr Speer semi-points. Take my time and pick my shot, bang, walk over to a dead deer. The “self absorbed, penny pinching small minded thinking” comment is a problem for me to be honest. It’s very belittling and condescending. There are thousands of very competent, experienced NZ Deerhunters that use light and mid-range calibres without so much as a hint of concern that they might not “have enough gun”. They know their business and the limitations of their gear. I think you’ll find a lot of experienced hunters have a problem with comments like this. I get it that you are the Magnum cartridge long-range guru, and I have applied a lot of your principles from your books to my long-range shooting with great success. However, when it comes to general deer shooting at short to medium range in open country - typical of the thousands of NZ hill country farms overrun with red deer at the moment on both islands - then there is absolutely nothing whatsoever wrong with a 6.5 Creedmoor. It’s not a fashion or a fad, it’s here to stay and for good reason. |
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@ 04:02 pm (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Creedmoor or 6.5x55 with a shortish barrel?It’s a 6.5x55, the pitfalls of which Nathan documented before the CM was invented. |
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@ 08:08 pm (GMT) |
Mike DavisRe: Creedmoor or 6.5x55 with a shortish barrel?David...... the way you describe the 6.5CM ....well you could be describing the .270winbefore you get all hot under the collar..look up the stats for BOTH using a FACTORY hornady eldx load..they are that close to each other its scarey so you cant praise one without the other..you also cant rubbish one without the other.... you quoted Nathan but missed his point by a country mile..... the bog std .308 fits the bill nicely was his point..and he is right I already said the 270 would do job fine..but that horse has bolted,its for sale in two locations as a "project" as it no longer shoots tiny wee groups..make of that what you will if you go back and read the 6.5x55 text in knowledge base..and take time to realise it was written some time back..you will see Nathan has great respect for the 6.5x55mm and as a near twin...the above also applies to CM... WHAT PISSES FOLKS OFF about the CM is how its been marketed..perfect for long range....well if it is,then so is the 270w for above given reason.. but you dont see that being marketed or promoted. Its not in the ajenda and not even this one eyed bush hobbit will suggest the .270w is THE BEST cartridge for long range.....BUT if you gave it a leg up,advantages of newer twist rate allowing slippery heavy projectiles it would be capable... hells bells,folks have been using it for semi long range-----out to 4-600y forever..with rangefinders and dial up its just about as good as many others. your last line...replace 6.5cm with . 243 308 260 7mm/08 308 7mm mag 270 280 30/06 6.5x55 etcetcetc and it still reads the same....I wont be selling my 270 to by a creedmore. and Im still trying to get my head around a .223 that wont shoot better than 2 inches at 70 yards....... |
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@ 07:41 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Creedmoor or 6.5x55 with a shortish barrel?My comments are made based on my own results as well as time spent observing hunters as a guide. I stand by them.I went to great lengths to research the 6.5 bore well before the Creedmoor entered the scene and tried my best to document these findings in the 6.5x55 article. I have probably shot more game than most hunters using this bore diameter. I do not agree that the majority of hunters know their gear and that most are cool headed shots. It makes me sick when I see gun store salesmen talk to farmers who barely understand their kit, the focus of the conversation being the justification of the .223 because its 'cheap', with no conversation around effective killing, shot placement etc. I am glad my comments strike a nerve, thats the point, to get people thinking about things. But even among those who know their kit, I have had a number of complaints this past few years from hunters who have lost Red deer and Thar using the Creedmoor, sworn that they had taken a steady shot, sometimes with an observer and sometimes with follow up shots. I have no doubt the animals eventually died, as you say, nothing would survive. But their experiences do mimic results I have personally observed in past years. On the other hand, I have also witnessed large red deer, drop just a couple of paces following a well placed shot with the 143gr ELD-X, just as you have described. I do try my level best to take in all sides of this. I don't generally think in terms of myself and always try to put myself in others shoes. For example, I understand the need for accuracy, but I also understand the issues surrounding factory rifles / triggers and also that mistakes happen in the field as a result of wind, animal movement etc. So while I try to promote the goal of reducing human error and also how to overcome rifle issues, I try to be realistic and to encourage my readers to adopt high power, generally in the form of increased bullet weight as opposed to increased powder capacity. If such cartridges were not a fad, why is now impossible to find a .260 Remington factory rifle? What annoys me David, is that these companies regurgitate the same things over and over yet consumers lap it up with utter gullibility. I actually quite like the 6.5 bore. But what I would like to see is more focus toward projectile designs - rather than see a projectile making company focusing so heavily on case designs, though the case designs are greatly appreciated. The 6.5x55 was originally designed around a 160gr projectile. It would be nice to see somebody look into this, to not be afraid to explore etc, then build a case design to support this. But instead, it just seems to be about the money and market trends. Furthermore, I recently spoke to a gun designer / engineer from a major U.S gun manufacturer who confirmed this to be exactly the case - it is about fashions and trends. I actually think you (customers / hunters) are worthy of more respect than "here is this years cheap plastic rifle". But perhaps I want more for you than you actually want for yourselves. Of course I could simply be wrong about everything. That's fine too. What I perceive to be true is simply my own experience, your experience is different to mine and that's quite OK. Am pretty sure my ego can handle that. Well, I suppose thats enough of trying to justify myself for one day. |
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