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Forum Index > Precision long range hunting and shooting > Shooting position, holding the rifleforend

Shooting position, holding the rifleforend

13 Jul 2017
@ 09:43 pm (GMT)

Anders Österberg

Hello, Greetings from Sweden 👋

I have a hard time to deside what shootingpositions I should stick with as a general setup for hunting....
I shoot a Tikka T3X Varmint 308win of bipods

I have struggled with the "stright behind the rifle" , but it feels aqward and the more normal position with a slightly offset feels a lot better but have thoughts on I've doing it wrong, even though I see a lot of... most Americans... Varminters and for ex GunWerks that shoots that way with good quality.

I shoot pretty god groups around 20mm but occasionally get flyers to the double.

I tried Nathans "hold that forend" but get bigger grups around 35mm but more stabile...without flyers.

I just looked on THLR on YouTube and wonder what you guys think of it and what I should focus on....?

https://youtu.be/rYCTMf_quvY

Replies

14 Jul 2017
@ 08:48 am (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: Shooting position, holding the rifleforend
Hi Anders, welcome aboard. It sounds like you have made a good start by reducing fliers. That is good to hear.

The video you linked is yet another case of the blind leading the blind. There are major flaws in his foundation. I seldom swear on this forum but I will say this here- these shooting videos are total cluster fucks. I hope that each and every one of you are clear on this. Get it through your heads, the folk who teach these methods do not have transferable skill sets. These guys actually make shooting more difficult as the systems fall apart once we get into (as an example) hill country terrain. The shooter loses both time and accuracy with these methods.

I will not go into this anymore here. I have put years into offering free info on this site. If you want to learn solid shooting methods, then please buy and read the shooting book. The book series helps to fund this site and puts food on our table. The 'hold that forend' article is just a stub. The shooting book will build you from the ground up. The shooting technique I teach has nothing in common with your video link. My Tikka video series goes into specifics on the Tikka, but I would prefer that you read the books first and use the videos (or first video) to cement this information.

To my clients- if you watch the video Anders linked (heavy barrel 6.5x55), you should be able to see errors immediately- day 1 rookie stuff. I do not want you to point these out here on this forum. Just take note of them.



15 Jul 2017
@ 09:14 am (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: Shooting position, holding the rifleforend
This morning when fired up my computer, I was thinking that perhaps I should not be so harsh regarding some of this youtube material. Everyone is after all simply trying to find their own way through life. But when I opened my mail, I saw the following comments regarding the video in question. The tone of the language shows the level of annoyance:

Why bother - its like going into the ring, throwing some kicks which you've never thrown before and saying - 'look they don't work'.

What a f---n joke - did multiple things wrong in relation to the methods. All of those things have a major affect on grouping capacity, a recipe for shit groups...totally missing the point.

Its disappointing, a sloppy attempt to undermine other people's methods (or products) with no consideration for the truth - not educating, just feeding propaganda, and whats really f---d is that a huge majority will buy into it.

His words (I have not practiced this before, so I might miss some finer points) - no shit, that's why your groups are shit. What did your groups using you're benchmark method look like on day 1?

"I'll not invest time to bring those techniques to benchmark standard"- says it all...but ill invest in propaganda.


It is certainly good to see folk who are very passionate about optimal shooting technique.

None of this is of immediate help to you Anders, a 'right fight' argument is certainly a turn off at the best of times. The thing is, I very often have to break many of my own shooting rules to take a shot. Different situations (terrain) can call for different methods However this requires a strong foundation to begin with. Recently, I took several shots that were at such a steep angle that I had the toe of the butt stock touching the ground and had to use my mid to lower bicep to absorb magnum recoil. The range was 300 yards and I needed to take three shots quickly but with great accuracy. To achieve such a thing, it is important to learn the the basic rules before you eventually break them. In this manner, you can adopt a poor position (bicep could be considered a very poor method) but use other aspects of your training (methods) as countermeasures. This is not something that can be covered in one simple online post. Nor can it be covered in a 5 minute blog video.
15 Jul 2017
@ 09:26 am (GMT)

Thomas Kitchen

Re: Shooting position, holding the rifleforend
HI Anders
I thought I would just add little bit if you haven't already ordered books.
I have been asked few times how many rounds I can put through my rifles before I get a sore shoulder.
The answer is I don't get a sore shoulder, I shoot decent rounds to but I follow the techniques Nathan clearly spells out in his book.
The main one being a saying about butt stock placement.
There was so many ah ha moments when reading the book.
All the info is there it's takes practice to put it into action but it's all there.
I find the mental side of shooting the hardest part. the relaxing and getting into the zone.
I shoot decent recoiling rifles and I would be lost without the book.
Cheers

15 Jul 2017
@ 07:36 pm (GMT)

Mike Davis

Re: Shooting position, holding the rifleforend
yip get the books and read them twice to let it start to sink in..... at 45 years old I started reading and yip....lightbulb moments started to pop from about 30 pages in onwards.
watched a chap Ive never hunted with before today absolutely smoke some wallabies at 150-300 yards from good prone position over daybag.... and I mean absolutely smoke them...rifle was a lightweight .270 win which has had suppressor fitted..... he killed 5 from 5 straight off, the first three were without moving position at all..... good shooting position and form ( from reading on here etc) led to good results,it was a pleasure to watch through binos from over his shoulder...the sunlight glinting off rear of projectile in flight was a bonus.
keep up the great work Nathan & Steph.
17 Jul 2017
@ 06:16 pm (GMT)

Anders Österberg

Re: Shooting position, holding the rifleforend
The E-book downloaded 👌
Beginning to reed tonight 🔜
01 Aug 2017
@ 10:24 pm (GMT)

Andrew Murray

Re: Shooting position, holding the rifleforend
Hi Anders,

I hope you're enjoying the book. Let me encourage to stick with it and practice it.

I have a rifle that is capable of 0.3 and smaller groups with factory ammo thanks to the information found in the book series (accurising and shooting books). I am.now working on my own form. I shot a 0.8MOA group (5 shots) off my field pack this Saturday just gone.

The time and effort you put in will reap much reward. It's a great feeling when guys look at you funny for shooting off a pack but your groups are tighter than theirs on their bipod!

Enjoy mate :)
06 Aug 2017
@ 07:42 am (GMT)

Anders Österberg

Re: Shooting position, holding the rifleforend
Hello
The book is read.
I have to say THANK YOU !!

After I read it the first time I tried the concept with the backpack but didn't get it all.

Because of the wrong angles, I also got to much tension on the left chest muscle when resting on the elbow insted of the chest, the muscle was cramping when going to bed, ha ha.

The groups were, despite the discomfort, generally better than my average shooting so I know I was on to something.

Read the book 2 more times and practicing at home on the floor, got it.
Was a really new experience, a nice experience!

Next time I took! Rifles with me , a Sako 222,. Husqvarna 1640 kal 6.5x55 with a Boyds Classic stock, and my Tikka T3X Varmint SS 308 win.

First out the 222, I really just wanted to check the sight., 3shots in 10mm.
Second the Husqvarna, tried first some leftover 130gr Hornady sp. I knew that it was in the 30mm range due to previous bench shooting (not Nathan-style), anyway... Shot 8 shots in approx 20mm, amazing!

Then with the same rifle I shot 4 shots of 123gr Lapua Scenar in 11mm.

Next the Tikka T3X with 155gr Lapua Scenar with 44gr N-140 Vitavuori powder.

The first 3shots was in a slightly oval hole and shot 4 and 5 opend it up to 11mm, the best group I have ever shot from a prone position!

Took 20 more shots on paper and I think none got more than 10mm from where I was when the shot went off.

The new shooting position lends to much nicer recoil.., and the consequence was that I got less prone to flinching and could better see exactly where the crosshair was when the shot went off, very nice ;-)

I then shot at 490 meters and there was no bad shots, only bad wind calls, ha ha.

Again THANK YOU FOR LETTING ME KNOW THIS !

It's very peculiar that YouTube and internet forums have lead to a shooting position that make it more difficult to shoot than necessary.

The trend has even caused rifle stocks to evolve to fit the wrong position.
I had to get my kydex-cheekrest as low as possible to get god sight picture...

This was only the second time I practiced this style so I will probably post more on this forum.

Thanks!
06 Aug 2017
@ 08:05 am (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: Shooting position, holding the rifleforend
Hi Anders, that is great to hear, well done. Your persistence has paid off. I can only lead a horse to water, it is up to you guys to do the rest. Again, well done.

Note, I have edited your English translation above while removing some of the finer trade secrets. Others keyed into this post will however get to read the original. Hope that's OK.
06 Aug 2017
@ 08:18 am (GMT)

Martin Taylor

Re: Shooting position, holding the rifleforend
Anders terrific outcome, another "light bulb moment!!"

Now you will be able to understand the thoughts & passion in the comments listed above, these are from shooters just like you or me. We have been through what you are experiencing and going against many of these supposed experts, trends or writers teachings can be challenging at first.

I had a fella say to me Monday "oh, sandbags & a sling, keeping it old school".
l just chuckled and watched his Bipod bounce all over the concrete table and the resulting 2" groups.

06 Aug 2017
@ 06:12 pm (GMT)

Warwick Marflitt

Re: Shooting position, holding the rifleforend
Yeah some guys think that a 4 inch group is good enough! They don't care enough to think or think enough to care? If there's No app for it then it obviously can't be done. ......! Seams to be their bipodual thinking ...... Sad to see the skills of old being lost through ignorance and Bullshitters . Maybe you should have to pass accuracy , empathy and Common sense tests as part of obtaining a firearms license?
24 Sep 2017
@ 04:21 am (GMT)

Shawn Bevins

Re: Shooting position, holding the rifleforend
I will say this... It takes a longer time to unlearn poor form than it does to learn the right way in the beginning. (been there done that).. I commend you on seeking out knowledge and information but beware the internet (you tube & various forums) is loaded with typer snipers. Cluster fecks for sure..
The books (all of them) were a good read for me and helped me in many ways.
Best of luck to you in your quest for accuracy.
27 Sep 2017
@ 08:50 am (GMT)

Anders Österberg

Re: Shooting position, holding the rifleforend
Hi
I have used the Nathan metod now for about 2 months and I am still amased how well and natural the method works!

I have now got comfort with the new angels and don't strugles so much as before.

Like Thomas Kitchen said..
Now I don't get a sour sholder like before when the coallarbonejoint have to soak up all the recoil... , And the outcome of that is that I get less recoilsensitive and can get better triggermanegment, very god!

The One thing that I think the "StirightBehindTheRifle" is better at is that it's easier to see what happend on the target or game...
Maybe that I still have some finer points to learn that take care of that...?
It's still nicer to "hit" than "see" when I miss.. ;-)
27 Sep 2017
@ 10:20 am (GMT)

Andrew Murray

Re: Shooting position, holding the rifleforend
Anders, your journey sounds like it has been overwhelmingly rewarding. More than that, the experience is something you will never lose.

Well done man!
 

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