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Let's go hunting!

24 Dec 2018
@ 12:58 pm (GMT)


27 Dec 2018
@ 10:32 am (GMT)

Andrew Murray

Re: Let's go hunting!
I don't understand the allure of hunting elephants and lions. I also don't understand enough about current systems in Africa to know how productive or legal or helpful hunting these animals is.

I personally have no desire to pay large sums of money to go and shoot one.

Poaching is never going away, whether poaching for blood money or poaching simply to survive... Though poaching to survive surely must not be a problem because you can tackle smaller game much more easily...

I think in reality some species are best left alone and management of these species should be left to the people who manage the parks, I get the financial perks of allowing foreign hunters to pay large sums to hunt the animals targeted for destruction but while ever the venture remains commercial there will always be an element of poaching. Plus if people stopped believing that rhino/elephant/tiger etc... could cure everything from bad breath, cancer, bad luck and bad handwriting then perhaps we'd be better off...

Thus the question comes back to people. How do we best live in harmony with our planet? Was it the belief that these things could cure the diseases or the exploitation by those looking to profit from the belief?
27 Dec 2018
@ 04:18 pm (GMT)

Lane Salvato

Re: Let's go hunting!

When African animals or any animals for that matter are seen as valuable by the indigenous population, that population protects them as a valuable resource. Big game hunting does just that. Elephants, hippos, and lions can overcrowd and do a lot of damage just like any other animals. When there is no value to these animals the indigenous people will begin clearing brush and converting wild areas to farms, and they will rid the area of offending wild animals themselves.

Foreign hunters who pay large sums to hunt elephants, hippos, lions, and other animals are a big part of this equation. It's simple and it works.

Poaching and big game hunting have nothing in common. I don't know any American or British dangerous game hunters who believe that a rhino horn is going to make them a better lover. These are the black market people who buy from other black market people who buy from poachers.

Hunters will always play a prominent role in responsible game management, but they don't play much of a role at all in irresponsible game management. The Scimitar Horned Oryx is nearly extinct in Africa. There are over 15,000 of them in Texas alone. As long as there is a commercial value to these animals they will thrive. As soon as their value is taken away, they will cease. That's just the way it is.
27 Dec 2018
@ 09:09 pm (GMT)

Andrew Murray

Re: Let's go hunting!
Cheers Lane,

I understand how the system works. I think it is important to define hunters and poachers but I disagree they are mutually exclusive. Perhaps hunting and poaching are better ways to describe what goes on rather than the people engage in the practices? I cannot understand the allure of paying upwards of $50K to shoot an elephant or any other animal for that matter. But if the desire exists to shoot one then it is not a step too far to shoot one without paying the hefty fee with it.

If the fee is not paid the animal will still be killed if game management is the focus. If the animal is not killed unless someone pays the fee then we must question the real motivations, game management or profit generation? I don't know enough to comment either way but the question is valid.

I agree wholeheartedly that western hunters won't believe that they gain special powers or cures from the horns of these animals but I am extremely skeptical they don't exploit the system and poach these animals purely for the money from those who believe they will obtain some benefit.

I have read some article recently about the efforts involved in eliminating poaching (and poachers) in various African countries so it is something that is taken very seriously. But while ever the value on the black market is greater than the value elsewhere who is going to stop?

I will come back to the closing statements from the previous post as for me they go to the heart of the matter. Thus the question comes back to people. How do we best live in harmony with our planet? Was it the belief that these things could cure the diseases or the exploitation by those looking to profit from the belief?

On a similar note to the Scimitar Oryx, the Monterey Pine (Pinus radiata) is critically endangered (nearly extinct) in its natural habitat but is one of the most extensively cultivated trees in the world. I have 17 in my back yard alone (all in pots mind you). That itself goes to the heart of my question too does it not?
28 Dec 2018
@ 09:26 am (GMT)

Mike Davis

Re: Let's go hunting!
Andrew...I believe you are missing the point completely.
if the animals DONT have a commercial value it will only be the cardigan wearing tree huggers who give a rats bum if they survive at all and the same said cardigan wearing tree huggers dont have much clout in the regieons where these big animals live....... no no mr African tribesman you can spear/shoot the poor lion just because it is eating your children/ no mr African tribesman you can chase the elephant out of your garden just because its eating the few scrawny vegetables and grain plants you have managed to grow to feed your family...the animals have to live too
that doesnt cut it as much as a couple of grand which will be more than his entire family gets for the year the black market is VERY attractive to someone with little or no money BUT if you can offer a financial reason to keep the same animals alive the attraction is less and if the financial gain is spread around the entire village well it makes it harder for a few to spoil it for all.
if cows suddenly werent commercially viable eg beef was unedible and dairy products were toxic (gee I almost sound like one of them cardigan wearers) how long do you think NZ paddocks would have bovines in them????it might take 5-6 years before we bred up enough sheep/goats/deer to replace them but you can bet you left testicle that is what would happen in VERY quick time....same principle if it pays it stays
if the taxpayer of NZ wasnt footing the bill for DOC staff etc how long do you think we would have kiwi/kea/kaka/kokako/whio etc etc etc left here????
because we care enough as a nation to pay and still have enough natural resourses to put some land aside,these things are safe.........if and when our population reaches say 20 million all those little side gullies and flat terraces are going to be getting eyeballed pretty darn hard.
28 Dec 2018
@ 05:31 pm (GMT)

Andrew Murray

Re: Let's go hunting!
Hi Mike,

I disagree that I have completely missed the point. I see it that that points you have raised answer my questions with out the need the need to further elaborate.

I think you have tried to cover "cardigan wearing wankers" as a small uneducated group but in reality the actions you have described really cover the large majority of western people. I am sure you can recall the global outrage at Cecil the Lion and Harambe the Gorilla. These animals were valued intrinsically by the majority of the western world, regardless of any implied or real commercial value.

Again, I don't know enough to say how the fee for shooting these protected species is divided and whether or not it is better to simply let the locals deal with it as you pointed out.

You mentioned the protected species in NZ that money is spent on (income via tax and other fees). We have a similar arrangement here in Australia, personally I believe that these species are too protected. Kangaroos and other macropods are a great source of meat (from an environmental, human biological benefit [very lean and high in iron and protein] and cost perspective). But presently in NSW the restrictions to shoot there are at the most lax they have been in a while yet it is still restrictive on who has permission to shoot these and in what numbers.

The point being of course that the people on the ground will know how it is best dealt with. Government regulations and the like can go so far to protect but management of species is much less prone to effective management from policies and bureaucrats and does better when viewed and understood from those in the thick of it.

I agree on the cows, but fail to see the relevance to the overall argument, unless you're pointing out that the protection of these species is purely financial and not related to game management?
Just this morning my wife's uncle commented that the most effective way to preserve a species is to domesticate it, like cows, sheep, chicken etc.

Perhaps another question we should come back to is whether or not the animals are killed regardless of a hunter paying the fee to do it? If the animal is not shot until the fee is paid then the system is quite hypocritical is it portrayed under "species management" rather than a profit system. If it is the profit system then the systems/persons/governments in charge of these really have just made black market practices legal and kept all the money themselves. Whether that is right or wrong is beyond me to comment on as I don't have the issues in my backyard that much of Africa does.

Again we need to ask: Was it the belief that these things could cure the diseases or the exploitation by those looking to profit from the belief?

Perhaps acknowledging that the issue isn't as black and white as we may like it to be is a good start?
29 Dec 2018
@ 01:58 pm (GMT)

Paul Leverman

Re: Let's go hunting!
Gee, all I wanted to do was share a really good hunting story. It is after all, just a story. Whether or not you agree with the content, or whether or not you agree with the principles, is a moot point. It's just a story about some guy who went hunting, had some issues that had to be dealt with and did so. I'm sure there was some drama thrown in, but that just makes the story that much better.

It's just a hunting story. It's not a documentary on the Discovery Channel, it's not an episode of Ancient Aliens. You won't see this on Mayday.

Ever read "The Ghost and The Darkness"? It's just a story, too. But it has everything that this story has, plus a whole lot more.

OK, I'm done. Just wanted to share a story. But after all, it is on "Off Topic", so we may as well go there.
29 Dec 2018
@ 02:05 pm (GMT)

Paul Leverman

Re: Let's go hunting!
So I went back and checked the link to make sure that everybody was seeing the same thing. And yes, that's what I wanted to share. Not only was the hunting part good, but there were some interesting points on rifles and calibres as well.

So, as long as the phrase "missed the point" was brought up by on! You've all missed the point.
29 Dec 2018
@ 02:23 pm (GMT)

Mike Davis

Re: Let's go hunting!
Paul...thankyou for sharing the link...I did read story right through and enjoyed it very much.....rifles really were great to read about (Im in process of doing a poormans single .45/70) if this works out as good as I hope then one day I might do a 2nd and slip them into SxS.
always thought the baikal SxS in .45/70 would make an awesome bush stalking rifle and reading that article confirmed what I think are the whys it would be great.
the ethics of taking big game on the dark continent have always been debated and its pretty much an accepted fact that without the revenue of big game hunting the big game would be gone.Cecil the lion was a P.R. balls up from the start...... the outfitter concerned broke loads of rules in this reguard.
the canned/behind the wire type of collecting (cant call it hunting) has always been around and always been controversial...but it pays.
29 Dec 2018
@ 05:58 pm (GMT)

Andrew Murray

Re: Let's go hunting!
The Ghost and the Darkness is a fictional story bit based very much on the real life Tsavo Man Eaters.

Check it here...
30 Dec 2018
@ 01:11 am (GMT)

Warwick Marflitt

Re: Let's go hunting!
Thanks for sharing Paul. I was 5 foot from the Lions cage at the Circus 30 years ago when a big male Roared...... it was bloody loud and its mouth was huge. I remember it like it was yesterday. The sound goes thru you and shakes your bones and your body is instantly in I've got to survive mode!!! Lesson of that day was Don't F#@k with Lions unless you want to die....? The dark continent has many issues. Having worked there and seeing the poverty and corruption first hand . The best thing to do is don't go there. Where I was in rural eastern Mali boarder. The only wild life was snakes, scorpions and a troop of big Baboons next to the pit of the mine site..... apparently everything else had been eaten? Extremely poor and desperate people struggling to make it. It's there country and we are wise to let them be. The UN presents is very obvious and my observations where of modern day Colony building and manipulation..... I left as I felt that I was part of the problem making huge $$$$ from gold taken from under the land of these poor locals. It
just didn't feel right or just!

04 Jan 2019
@ 03:47 am (GMT)

mark korte

Re: Let's go hunting!
"The dark continent has many issues. Having worked there and seeing the poverty and corruption first hand . The best thing to do is don't go there. Where I was in rural eastern Mali boarder. The only wild life was snakes, scorpions and a troop of big Baboons next to the pit of the mine site..... apparently everything else had been eaten? Extremely poor and desperate people struggling to make it."

Good post Warwick. And good discussion by all. It seems to me that when you mix too many humans with too much commercialism the wildlife is going to take it in the shorts every time. Not only "poor folks gotta eat too" but thru contact with the rest of the world the indigenous people suddenly realize that they don't have what "we" have and they want it too - why shouldn't they? I don't think any of us would argue against modern medicine, for example, but when you combine what it gives us (longer life expectancy) with an ever increasing population it doesn't take very complicated math to get the results. You can try and stave it off thru taking advantage of wealthy hunters or you can let the locals deal with it. But until you address the overarching issue of too many mouths for the country to sustain you are basically putting off the inevitable.

Paul - Thanks for the story - I think it would have been really exciting if they had been hunting with spears!
05 Jan 2019
@ 04:34 pm (GMT)

Paul Leverman

Re: Let's go hunting!
Many years ago, sometime last century, we hired a young man from west Mali. He was probably the hardest worker we had, didn't know a lot, but show him once and he never forgot and never quit until he got it right. At the noon day meal, the conversation turned to life in Mali, and my wife asked him what they ate there. His answer was that if it walked, crawled, or flew, it was food. My wife's next question was what was his favourite? He thought hard for almost a full minute, and we thought he didn't understand the question. His answer: elephant. Why elephant we asked. With the biggest grin we'd had the pleasure to see on his face, he held up his hands about this far apart and said "BIG STEAKS!"


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