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Gut Shots

21 Jan 2016
@ 12:46 pm (GMT)

Kwade Bruce

So, I read the post on the basics of game killing. I will start by saying it certainly introduced me to some topics I had never even considered before. I was very intrigued and it really seemed like some accurate information. Then I saw the diagram. One of the labels on the diagram was, "Carterid artery". I thought, that looks like carotid artery but maybe it is a different thing. So, I grabbed my old anatomy textbook, humans don't have a cartertid artery. I thought, well this is a human anatomy textbook, humans and large hooves herbivores are not the same thing. So, I tried google... Nothing there. So, I am left with two conclusions:
1) This guy is a clown, who is claiming to know important anatomical and physiological factors in successfully and humanely killing animals, but has to sound-spell anatomical terms?
2) New Zealand is not Canada, maybe that is how they spell it their.

However, after i noticed this, I couldn't help but question everything. Here are my concerns. actually concern.

Gut shots usually cause a slow death when the gastric secretions cause blood poisoning? what would cause the gastric juices to enter the blood stream? When the blood vessels within the peritoneal cavity and/or the organs of the digestive system are severed, the blood comes out of the vessels. There is no reason to believe that a significant amount of gastric secretions would ender the bloodstream. My thoughts are the animal likely remains mobile for days after most gut shots until it, until the inevitable bacterial infection caused by resident microbes in the GI system (E. coli, salmonella, chlostridea species, enterococus) leads to septicemia (a systemic infection), which causes septic shock and leads to death. Septic shock is very similar to bleeding out in that they are both hypovolemic states. in bleeding the whole blood exits the vessels onto the ground, in septic shock the massive numbers of bacteria signal the immune system to release massive amounts of inflammatory mediators, some of which are vasodilators, the liquid portion of the blood exits the vessels into the intracellular space, if there is not enough blood there is not enough oxygenation of vital tissues which kills them. If by some miracle the animal does not become infected, they starve to death.

"Blood poisoning" sounds like something a which doctor diagnoses you with so that you will buy his magic elixer of life.

but yeah, thats it. Other then that it seems like you have my dream job; shoot stuff, tinker in a shop, rinse and repeat.


21 Jan 2016
@ 08:29 pm (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: Gut Shots
Hi Kwade, the correct answer to your question is that this guy (me) was a clown.

There are some mistakes there. The drawing is also wrong. When I wrote that draft many years ago, I was still learning from folk here in NZ (and their spelling) and those folk were doing their best but the info was still lacking. There was no wikipedia back then, no high speed internet. Just print books from what you hoped were good sources.

I wrote the basic game killing section based on such things but also based on my own experiences. I then uploaded half of my hand written research to the KB which is what you see on this site. Years passed between my hand written notes through to the eventual uploading to the internet and we eventually reached a point where funds were very low. That is when I started writing the books but with the help of a veterinary surgeon. So in this sense, those who read the cartridges book will see quite a few differences between this and the basic game killing section the website. What you have said Kwade is right and it shows in the print books. Still, there are aspects that I have discovered about game killing that do not appear in any medical books and so I had to utilize the help of my vet friend and editor plus other vets in order to help me put what I was seeing and able to repeat test in the field into words.

Now that the book series is done, I need to finish the KB and clear up mistakes such as those present in the game killing section. It is very important to set this right.

I hope that helps explain things. You have to understand that I have grown with this as much as our readers have. As I moved forwards, I have found that some of the teachers I held in high regard in our own hunting scene were themselves of limited understanding. In more recent times, I found that many ballisticians are not up with the play as I had once believed.

I am still learning. I open one door, only to find another.

I hope that helps explain things a bit better.

Cheers, Clown.

22 Jan 2016
@ 12:19 am (GMT)

Wayne Woodard

Re: Gut Shots
I read with interest the comment about a "which" doctor. I could not find any infomation on such a person so maybe it was sound spelt by another clown.
Clown #3
22 Jan 2016
@ 12:59 am (GMT)

Warwick Marflitt

Re: Gut Shots
So explain this Clowns medical Wytchery. Hooficyde?
Manic moose ain't Clownin rounds and shoots himself into Carside fatality. He popped a crap in its arse and mayd the world's (Canadadas) furst Hooftop veehickelle.!

He waddint clownnnning! Eh roundz
Churr bro. ....
22 Jan 2016
@ 01:18 am (GMT)

Warwick Marflitt

Re: Gut Shots
Being serious . The worst thing you can do is gut shoot an animal. FFS pass on the shot and wait for the angle to change. Please don't gut shoot it and condemn an animal to a slow miserable death. Spelling mistake or not! The animals welfare should be first and foremost on the hunter's mind. If you have the skills and tools to do it correctly a head shot into the brain is the best lights out shot.! Clown #4
22 Jan 2016
@ 09:14 am (GMT)

Mike Neeson

Re: Gut Shots
Hi Kwade, found another spelling error "There is no reason to believe that a significant amount of gastric secretions would ender the bloodstream." So I guess you get upgraded from "clown",to "arse clown".

One thing I have learned in my life is that when correcting someone's grammar and spelling in writing, you better go over your own stuff with a fine tooth comb.

The point you make about gastric juices not getting into the blood stream due to broken vessels bleeding INTO the peritoneal cavity are correct only if viewed in isolation. When you take into account of the many different membranes and layers that are ruptured and the various bodily fluids being injected/dragged (by the projectile and it's energy) into places they shouldn't be, there becomes a much greater propensity for cross contamination.
I find it helpful when reading someones attempt at explaining something, to read the intended meaning from between the lines rather than the actual words.
There are a number of readers and contributors to this forum with dyslexia and other learning difficulties which makes it difficult for them to get across what they mean in writing. Is their information any less valuable? It just takes a little more time to get the gist of what they're trying to say. This "question" you had for Nathan would have been better in an email rather than "show boding" your medical literacy to one and all.

I only say this from lessons learned myself

Chief Arse Clown

PS I've triple checked my spelling and grammar, but would appreciate any suggestions you may have on it's improvement.
23 Jan 2016
@ 12:30 am (GMT)

Thomas Kitchen

Re: Gut Shots
hi kwade.
i hope your not put of the forum as its really is a great place to learn.
as mike has stated many people come from all walks of life and education but they all come to this forum to learn how to be better hunters and increase there knowledge, which to me is the most important factor.
i have a saying that "the only thing no one can take from you, is your ability to learn"
any way that's my 2 cents worth.
cheers the bad spelling and grammar clown.
23 Jan 2016
@ 06:41 am (GMT)

Helmut Pleiter

Re: Gut Shots
So Kwade, you found a spelling mistake in one of Nathan’s articles. Great work! But if a single one of those devalues an article or makes you actually “question everything”, what does that make your post? At a cursory glance I counted 15 mistakes of all sorts in that short piece. And English is not even my first language; but then again neither might yours be, seeing that you’re Canadian.
Getting back to the issue: Yes, it should have read carotid artery. And yes, it’s called that in other mammals as well. Funny, our anatomy lecturers at vet school were always at pains to teach us human anatomy as well; just for comparison – and maybe a bit of sadistic fun on their part. Seems that your teachers at medical school weren’t quite so keen.
Now, let’s have a look at your concern: I’m not entirely sure what to make of the second part of your post. It sounds a bit like you are saying that dying from septicaemia as a result of GI contents spilling into the abdominal cavity is similar to dying from massive acute blood loss from having major blood vessels severed. I’d question that assumption. In fact I’m absolutely certain that someone dying from a ruptured appendix (used to happen quite a bit in the ‘good old days’) given the choice would have preferred to have his/her throat cut.
Are you seriously suggesting that no part of the GI contents would be able to enter the bloodstream? The peritoneum would have to be an impermeable barrier, which it isn’t. It won’t happen instantly, but it will happen. If you don’t believe me, try putting a bit of rumen content on one of your mucous membranes – under the tongue maybe!
Now for the inflammatory mediators of which you speak: they mediate inflammation – too right. But you make it sound like they get into it a couple of days after the wounding and then cause a sudden hypovolaemic shock. You might want to consult your pathology notes on that one. I’d say the inflammation would be acute with all the classical signs (dolor/pain, calor/heat, rubor/redness, tumor/swelling, functio laesa/impaired function). There will be pain – and quite a bit of it!
And one more thing, “blood poisoning” is quite a common layman’s term for septicaemia. Even if witch doctors might use the term to push their elixir of life, I think its use is justified in this article. Especially considering the fact that Nathan’s audience consists mainly of medical laymen and not of trained medical professionals like yourself.
I agree with Nathan. The article needs to be reworked, probably along the lines of what went into some of the books under ‘game killing’. So, if you have something to contribute on the issue, please do share. I can assure you that you will be hard pressed to find a researcher in any field that is as receptive as Nathan to having his findings and conclusions challenged. He is positively eager to have people do it, all for the sake of getting the information correct.
Fast clean killing is a top priority issue for the sake of the animal whose life we’re taking. On this forum we all work towards this common goal, each of us coming in from a different angle with different experiences. We’d welcome your input, but please be a bit more careful throwing the big “clown” rock about while you’re sitting in a glass house.
The vet clown
PS: Gee, with that many clowns around Nathan's job is probably more like a nightmare rather than a nice little dreamy number.
25 Jan 2016
@ 05:18 am (GMT)

Paul Leverman

Re: Gut Shots
To all that responded: please consider the fact that not all Canadians take offense at how others spell. Not all Canadians focus on the menial, nor do they usually attack or ridicule the mistakes others may make. As a rule, we are polite and enduring, and as such I take it upon myself to apologise to all fellow commonwealth members for any disparaging remarks made here.
05 Feb 2016
@ 05:31 am (GMT)

Mike Davis

Re: Gut Shots other places thats know as "trolling" eg trolling a bait/lure to get a bite!!!!!!!
if I ever drop another sea perch on my foot and get pinned through my gumboot (shite of a job getting boot off)
or drive a smelly old Barracouda spike up under my fingernail while filleting
I will be sure to ask Doctor to be aware of septicemia and not worry about blood poisoning.....
Nathan mate...keep up the good work,we knows whatch ment to say/mean

old fart Clown
15 Jun 2016
@ 05:53 am (GMT)

Jon Short

Re: Gut Shots
Funniest thing I've read for a while! He he.
Middle aged fart
26 Jun 2016
@ 07:20 pm (GMT)

Lane Salvato

Re: Gut Shots
I knew that Nathan was the real deal BECAUSE of the article on killing. I'd noticed the response to the destruction of the autonomic plexus for years, as a kid growing up, and as a young adult. I never knew what it was called, and I was always chastised by my fellow hunters for shooting "too far forward" or shooting the "base of the neck". All I knew was that everything fell over.

I also noticed the spelling and figured that a master hunter probably didn't have a lot of time to spell check medical terms. I suppose it's all perspective!
28 Jun 2016
@ 12:21 pm (GMT)

mark whiteley

Re: Gut Shots
good on you Nathan to be man enough to show you are human



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