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> Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 Yards
Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 Yards
@ 08:40 am (GMT) |
Ryan NafeFellas,Firstly let me say thanks to everyone for the replies and information they shared in my two recent posts. Life gets a little busy sometimes and I get forgetful, so don’t take it too seriously if I don’t reply right away or respond to every individual. Here’s the situation that prompted this particular post: The rifle, cartridge, and ammunition I’m using for whitetail deer is as close to optimal as I could reasonably ask expect. 20” barrel .308 Winchester, 165 grain Superformance SST’s at just over 2,700 FPS. For the game weights of 150 to 225 pounds, this is just fine. BUT, I’m somewhat bored with this combination and want to experiment with a new setup that consistently offers significantly faster killing. The main options I’m considering are these: - .45-70 (full-power loads suitable for levers and Ruger #1) - .270 WSM - 7mm Rem. Mag. (Maybe WSM) - .35 Whelen I would appreciate some input on what you guys think would provide the fastest killing possible for the above mentioned game weights, out to about 125 yards. Handloading is an option, as is factory ammo. One major consideration is that I would really like to keep the overall length of the rifle to an absolute maximum of 44 inches. |
Replies
@ 09:15 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 YardsShot placement is certainly a key factor as is bullet design. And as you said Mike, there is no need for more than a .308 inside 200 yards on these body weights but sometimes a guy just wants to experiment and this thread was based on boredom versus curiosity which I quite understand.Generally speaking Ryan, I teach readers to aim for the forwards section of the shoulder which gives room for error in both directions. You will see my comments on shot placement versus the customs of various countries in the Cartridges book. The rib shot placement is problematic as Mike has said, especially if the angles are wrong. It is for these reasons that we see bullets like the Winchester Deer season. In a modern mass produced rifle that groups somewhere between 1.5 and 2.5 MOA over sandbags and perhaps 3 to 4 MOA with modern technique, plus the rib shot placement, a bullet has a heck of a job to do in order to secure game. To this end, the design focus of the Deer Season bullet is towards maximum wounding (echoing Mike's meat damage comment) but with a sacrifice in penetration. Below: 243 95gr Deer Season XP. The main photo shows the entry wound while the inserts show wounding along with the exit wound. Using a somewhat stouter bullet or one that is heavier in weight, we would normally see the reverse of this, a smaller entry, larger exit. 
The Whelen is a good cartridge Ryan but do not expect miracles. I really enjoy the ability of this cartridge to handle the awkward snap shots and resulting poor shot placement but it will not always give on the spot kills so you have to be realistic about this. Often, game will jump, then act drunken, then fall, depending on the bullet used, angles and impact velocities. It will certainly give you something a bit different to experiment with and the low trajectory is good if you have neighboring farm houses not too far away. Again, focus on the Hawk 225gr if you can obtain it. The Woodchuck stock looks fine Ryan, should do the trick. |
@ 12:11 pm (GMT) |
Martin TaylorRe: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 YardsGood stuff Ryan. Just be careful if you go as high as the head/neck junction as very little animal movement is needed to stuff the shot, lean towards the lower third of the neck/shoulder to minimize risk.Any new or developing hunter l tell the same as Mike, Bob or Nathan "put it in the engine room through the shoulder, leading side of front leg" which will build confidence and offers good margins. I went to the 9.3mm for the similar reasons as you, been very happy when combined with the 250 Grain RN Woodleigh. The limited options of 9.3mm projectiles greatly reduces its versatility compared to the 30 cal and because of this (& other reasons) l find myself reaching for our 30-06 most trips. |
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@ 03:36 pm (GMT) |
Ryan NafeRe: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 YardsMartin, did you mean a different spot than that, we’re y meaning closer to the chest?I have to think through Nathan’s reply a little more because it’s reply is gonna have to be a bit more complex than I can do right now. I’m just a bit too tired to write something worthwhile. What I can say is that I definitely have easy access to Hawk bullets (I’m in the USA) and that I stumbled across another extremely interesting option his afternoon after work: A very inexpensive and seemingly well-built Ruger M77 Hawkeye African in .375 Ruger. This would allow me to experience an absolutely obvious and dramatic difference in terminal performance on game, while allowing me to keep the .25-06 as an ideal 200 - 300 yard deer/coyote rifle. |
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@ 05:09 pm (GMT) |
Ryan NafeRe: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 YardsAnd then I read the knowledgebase article and it throws another wrench into the gears:“One could go so far as to call it the medium bore work horse equivalent of the ever reliable .308 Winchester.” Maybe I should get the equivalent medium bore rifle then. I’m fairly sure that most of the .375 Ruger rifles for sale on the used market are being sold for both accuracy and heavy recoil issues, which could both be solved with a new stock that’s been properly bedded. |
@ 05:57 pm (GMT) |
Mike RRe: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 YardsSo we are now neck shooting with a 375 Ruger? If you decide to shoot necks/heads you’ll probably have better success with the 308 or 25-06 |
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@ 04:07 am (GMT) |
Ryan NafeRe: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 YardsNo Mike, that’d be a bit much. Just body shots. Although it might be interesting to decapitate one with the .35 or .375 |
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@ 09:29 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 YardsYes, anyone hoping on this thread might wonder what the heck is going on, a .375" for deer? But we have our freedom of choice and again this thread is about curiosity. Those with an open mind will understand all sides of any arguments here.As a heads up, I have updated the Whelen page this morning, just a small update at the bottom, introducing the Hawk bullets along with notes on the bullet jackets. I have no experience with these projectiles yet, all current feedback is reliant on the couple of readers who have been sending me mail. I very much hope to obtain the Hawk in due course but with the cost of our research (horrendous shopping bills as forum member and retail operator Dan Keene might attest to), this will have to wait for a bit. In the mean time, I feel it is important that the bullets get a mention otherwise it is a bit unfair to the bullet maker going to such great efforts, only to have me state that there are few soft bullets anymore. https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/.35+Whelen.html |
@ 11:55 am (GMT) |
Bob MavinRe: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 YardsHere's a couple of interesting sites on 35 cal bullets, they mention Hawk bulletshttp://35cal.com/35bullet_study/35bullet_study1.htm lhttp://35cal.com/bullets.html |
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@ 05:44 am (GMT) |
Ryan NafeRe: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 YardsFellas, I’ve decided that the .375 Ruger is just a tad too much, and the bullets suitable for deer are a lot more difficult to find in that diameter than they are in .358”, so I’m gonna stick with the Whelen.One final thing to clarify how I generally aim and what kind of shot placement I use: - If the deer is broadside/perpendicular to me, I try to put the round just behind the shoulder, the “meat-saver” shot. - I don’t take shots where the deer is quartering at an angle that’s beyond 45 degrees. - If the deer is at a quartering angle that I’m comfortable with, then I just do my best to project a mental image of the vital organs and put the bullet into that area, if major muscle or bone is hit then so be it. —- One last note, I have never lost a deer with the .308 and I’ve never needed more than one shot. Even on these body weights with the .243 Winchester, I only lost one deer (found a couple days later by my grandpa) and only a handful needed more than one shot. So I’m practical terms I’d be perfectly fine with the current setup, but I’m interested in seeing what a different class of power actually gets me. The picture in the knowledgebase of the Superformance .35 damage is just really intriguing and I’d like to see that sort of power firsthand. Thanks for the discussion everyone, it’s been interesting and very helpful. Since I’ll be using the Hawk bullets for the .35 Whelen build, I might as well order some for the .308 as well. I’m kinda torn between the 165 or 180, either one would work but I think the 165 would probably be best. |
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@ 01:07 am (GMT) |
Ryan NafeRe: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 YardsNot to open another rabbit hole here, but I stumbled across a Savage barrel in a Varmint contour in .28 Nosler. This can launch 175 grain bullets at the same speeds that the Remington can launch 160’s. Anyone have any experience with that kind of velocity at woods ranges? |
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@ 01:44 am (GMT) |
Ryan NafeRe: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 YardsIt’s essentially a ballistic equivalent to the 7mm STW, with (likely) the same potential problems of throat erosion and subsequent short barrel life. But the ability to launch a Hawk 175 grain 0.035” jacket round tip at 3,100 FPS would probably do the trick. |
@ 07:15 am (GMT) |
Chris MurphyRe: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 YardsRight O you jokers. Just going to jump in with my 2 cents worth here as I find myself frustrated with people wanking on about the "Meet Saver Shot"Ya cant get meet off an animal that's not dead or has been lost! kill it fast and eat whats left. I was invited out spotlighting in the weekend by a client after tricking up his savage LH 270 in Boyds stock. We flicked the light into a gully and there were to sets of eyes shining back at us but they were a bit spooky and started cutting up the hill I was instructed to shoot one so garbed his rifle and lined up at 315 yards I could just see glimpses of deer as they moved through the scrub, the hind came in the clear then jumped into the trees and gone so as soon as the yearly showed i took a quick snap shot and heard a reassuring thud. when we got up there we found it to have a hole in its ass so in the time between me seeing it and the bullet getting there it had turned to follow mum Bullet had gone through rump just left of anus and into cavity taking out liver. So can we call this a meet saver shot? cos if I didn't shoot we would have no meet Get a suitable caliber with suitable projectile and kill it dead, there is no such thing as over kill only under kill. |
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@ 11:50 am (GMT) |
Ryan NafeRe: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 YardsChris I like your style, the candor is pretty funny. Those are dramatically different circumstances than what I generally deal with, it’s actually illegal to shoot any big game animals at night here.However, the arguments you make are actually pretty decent and I’d have to agree: “Ya cant get meet off an animal that's not dead or has been lost! kill it fast and eat whats left.” I can’t really argue with that, any food at all is better than none. I suppose if there’s less meat on one carcass it could give me a reason to shoot another one :D |
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@ 10:12 am (GMT) |
Ryan NafeRe: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 YardsAlright guys, I’ve finally settled on and fully committed to a specific build, and it’s not quite the same as the previous plan of the Whelen. Here it is:Aside from the Savage .25-06, I have another slightly older but otherwise identical model in .243 Winchester. I really love the .243, it’s a good cartridge for smaller deer and it makes the .223 from my friends’ AR’s look like a pop gun when used on coyotes and other varmints. However, the .25-06 is possesses that same general flexibility, but it also adds just enough diameter and weight to make it more reliable on deer. It looks to me like a general improvement on what I like about the .243. So I’ll be keeping the .25-06 as-is for now, and the .243 is the new donor action for a powerhouse rifle. So then what’s the actual plan, what could I possibly chamber in a short action that could be similar to the power level of Whelen out to 150 yards or so? Well the answer is this: .450 Marlin, in a 26” Varmint barrel. It’ll be a little unwieldy at that length, so I may go down to 24” or split the difference at 25”, but the velocity gain and extra weight of the longer barrel should be a good trade-off. The .35 Whelen is definitely a flatter-shooting cartridge, no doubt about it, but for an absolute maximum range of 150 yards (which is farther than I can usually even see in my spots) this doesn’t make much difference to me. Obviously I’ll have to send the action to a shop for modifications to the bolt head and magazine in order to run that cartridge, but I’ve found several places that do it for a decent price and relatively fast turnaround time. I’m still gonna go with that Woodchuck stock from Stockade that I mentioned earlier, it looks like a nice design. |
@ 11:55 pm (GMT) |
Warwick MarflittRe: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 YardsRyan I'm surprised that you have chosen such a set up. The Whelen would've been much more versatile shooting bullets from 150 to 310 grains weight and different constructions. From close out to 400 yards. Giving you a rifle suited to many situations, locations and various sized game and species. All with the same boring Easy to build or buy from factory rifle. Just my thoughts. Enjoy doing the 450. As long as you are happy and animals don't suffer it'll be fine.... |
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@ 02:55 am (GMT) |
Ryan NafeRe: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 YardsYeah Warwick, the Whelen is a little more flexible in general and would require less work on the gun, but I actually don’t have much need for the increased range. The .450 will keep the point of impact within 1.5” of a 75 yard zero out to the absolute maximum range I could shoot to, and it delivers very fast killing (when loaded with soft hollow points like Hawk makes) at all ranges I can see deer.The .450 could also end up obsolete in a decade or so but the brass should be around for quite some time, and the cartridge is best used as a hand loading proposition anyway. The only real option for factory ammo is the somewhat mild/anemic Hornady Leverevolution stuff. I still haven’t decided if I’ll go with the 300 or 350 grain hollow points yet, both from Hawk, but I’ll likely start with the 300 and just see how it performs on game. Moving up to the 350 if I have any trouble with quartering angles. The way I see it, I’ve now got three different rifles for three distinct purposes: - .308 carbine for walking around or doing drives, it’s already set up for that. - .25-06 for varmints or longer ranges on deer. - .450 Marlin bolt gun for hunting from stands, where I just need a steady gun and a heavy payload for quick kills. |
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@ 03:59 am (GMT) |
Ryan NafeRe: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 YardsOne other thing I’d point out is that there’s a pretty big distinction (at least from my perspective) between a lever action carbine in .450 or .45-70 and a long-barreled bolt action:The straight stock and long/heavy barrel on the bolt action should, hypothetically, make it much less of a pain to shoot, and as long as I do the bedding work properly in a stock of good quality then the accuracy of the bolt gun is likely to be dramatically better than the average lever action. |
@ 11:47 am (GMT) |
Luke LahdenrantaRe: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 YardsIf you're going to use a 243 as your donor how about a 358 Win instead of 35 Whelen. Something like the 180 gr Speer flat point should be a great deer woods load out to 150 yards. Probably cheaper and easier than a 450. |
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@ 12:05 pm (GMT) |
Bob MavinRe: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 YardsGreat choice Luke.I use a bolt action 358win, 22" barrel I can get a max of 2620fps with 225gn pills & 2206H. I run it at 2500fps with 225gn Sierra game kings, it kills extremely well out to 300yds. The 450 Marlin will work well in your situation though |
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@ 12:41 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 YardsThat would be the way to go Ryan, start with a 300gr HP, see how you get on for a season.The .458's do tend to shunt around a lot, as you say, the stock and barrel are key factors. It will certainly be something different as per your initial motivations. |
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@ 02:06 pm (GMT) |
Ryan NafeRe: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 YardsYeah I’m gonna go with the .450, it’s power level is very good and it’s not likely I’ll ever run into someone else using the same gun as me. According to most people I run into I’m kinda eccentric so it’s probably fitting that my primary deer rifle is just as odd as the dude who’s using it.Nathan, do you think it would be a good idea to have the stock maker add weight to the stock? He has an option to make the total weight be 7lbs, this would likely make the total weight of the rifle come out to about 12lbs or so. I thought this might be a good idea for both stability when offhand shooting and also to help soak up the recoil energy of the .450, perhaps placing less strain on the stock and bedding. I’ll definitely have to get a machined 1/4” recoil lug to replace the stamped factory part, regardless of adding weight to the stock or not. |
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@ 08:31 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 YardsHi Ryan, as I have become older (and realized that I know less than I thought I did), I have learned to avoid weighting stocks if at all possible. I treat it as a last resort. The main factors are to get your stock shape correct and for the big boomers - get a bit of weight in the barrel (but in balance with personal requirements for back packing etc). If you finish your barrel at around .9", I would guess that the all up weight will be about 10.5 to 11lb scoped. If you go up to 1", I think you will be around 11 to 11.5lb which is ample. The gun does not need to be extra heavy, just needs to have a bit of weight out front and to fit right.Forum member Lane is currently shooting a 285gr at around 2400-2450fps in his fairly standard .338 Win Mag at the moment which is quite a new thing for him. All told, he has thoroughly enjoyed it. That .375 I showed in the wound data base also yields high power but the rifle has a monte carlo stock which lifts perceived recoil (I have the same rifle in .300 H&H). Yours will hopefully be nice to shoot with a 300gr HP. |
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@ 08:29 am (GMT) |
Ryan NafeRe: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 YardsAlright, thanks Nathan. I’ll just go with a nice heavy barrel then, just one last question for everyone before I start piecing it together:Do you guys know of any potential issues with certain barrel length and taper dimension combinations that have any consistent issues with barrel harmonics (meaning too little stiffness and/or inconsistent movement under recoil) in this bore diameter? Thanks again everyone. |
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@ 08:37 am (GMT) |
Ryan NafeRe: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 YardsAnd yeah Nathan, it’s really interesting to get a picture in the mind of just how much I don’t know.My thought on that is that as long as a person can remind themselves of how much they don’t know, and do it often enough so that the idea becomes integrated into that person, then it’s probably going allow for something like the maximum amount of learning that can be achieved by that person. |
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@ 09:19 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 YardsGood question Ryan.On the Savage action, the king screws are not fully spaced apart, the rear screw being located behind the mag box rather than at the tang. Therefore, a long and heavy barrel can put the action under stress. To alleviate this, tape the barrel nut with a single layer of electrical tape, nice and tidy, then bed the action through and into the barrel channel about 2" to 2.5" past the barrel nut. |
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