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Forum Index > Rifles general discussion > .303 Wildcat or conversion for an Enfield P14 Action

.303 Wildcat or conversion for an Enfield P14 Action

16 Jan 2016
@ 09:35 pm (GMT)

Ben Grady

Hi Guys

I have just purchased a P14 rifle with an unloved barrel. After a successful new build of my 25-06 on a P17 action. I am interested in a new build with the P14.
So I am after opinions of what would be a good conversion. I could just re-barrel it and ream it to a .303 Epps improved. Easy to do and easy to fire form and better ballistics that the 303.
I already have a 25-303 and the 25-06 so something a bit different from the 25cals would be nice. My gunsmith has a P14 300 winmag that is super accurate, so that is a possibility. (He also has the reamer).
What is the 7mm Practicle COAL compared to the 300win mag?
I welcome any ideas or thoughts.

Replies

16 Jan 2016
@ 10:12 pm (GMT)

Thomas Kitchen

Re: .303 Wildcat or conversion for an Enfield P14 Action
hi Ben
thought i better mention that i have run into an issue with my p14 the receiver diameter is bigger then most standard actions, which is causing issues with mounting a barrel with a 1.23" shank.
i think i got a solution now but it'll be a week minimum before i know for sure if it'll work.
i suggest you get barrel pulled off action before you get to far into project.

as for calibers skies the limit really.
i do have that 35/303 reamer which works smoothly in a p14 as i checked.
i also own my 308 norma mag reamer set up for 208gr amax's.
so if any of those interest you im happy to hire out reamers.
another option is something like 358 norma mag, which i think true flite will have a reamer for once they are up and running with there 35 cal stuff.

im really interested to see what you decide so please keep updates coming
18 Jan 2016
@ 04:31 am (GMT)

Ben Grady

Re: .303 Wildcat or conversion for an Enfield P14 Action
Thanks Thomas

I will google the two calibers you mention and see if they spin my wheels.
By a large receiver is that the threaded part by chamber?
My barrel is made to any dimensions, we (me and gunsmith) just let the barrel maker know the sizes for each part of the profile shape that we want. I would have thought it would be similar to my P17.
I have read a 303 Epps improved is similar to a 308's ballistics?.
More homework required.
I am open to any suggestions, sure I could just buy a new rifle in any caliber but what fun is there in that. You sure learn a lot when doing a new build/conversion, than you would buying off the shelf.
18 Jan 2016
@ 06:45 am (GMT)

Thomas Kitchen

Re: .303 Wildcat or conversion for an Enfield P14 Action
hi Ben
yes the threads that the barrel screws into, most barrel makers get there steel in 1.23 diameter then rifle it from there as i have discovered but you can get custom ones from different sources.
hugh bradley of bradley barrel is one if you want to go local but don't no a lot about his barrels.
there's few improved version of the 303 some massively like the ICL on the other hand ellwood epps was trying to get better brass life more then velocity with his version but he got both.

18 Jan 2016
@ 07:12 am (GMT)

Warwick Marflitt

Re: .303 Wildcat or conversion for an Enfield P14 Action
Lol Ben your going to struggle buying a Shiny new 358 Win or 35 Whelen here in New Zealand . I'm with you when it comes to building something new from something old.
18 Jan 2016
@ 07:36 am (GMT)

Ben Grady

Re: .303 Wildcat or conversion for an Enfield P14 Action
Hi Thomas, It was Hugh Bradley that made the barrel for my P17 25-06. And it shoots superbly. The 303 Epps improved does intrigue me, especially with the P14 action and hotter loads. I am open to all ideas, as half the fun is analysing all the different cartridges.
18 Jan 2016
@ 08:17 am (GMT)

Thomas Kitchen

Re: .303 Wildcat or conversion for an Enfield P14 Action
Hi Ben.
That's good to hear he's been around a long time so must be reasonable. He use to make rifles back in the day before the dollar was floated.
What kinder bore size you thinking?
Might be easier to find bore size you want then find the cartridge.
Have a look on Pacific tools and gauges at there 303 reamers from memory there is about 4 different ones.
Not sure if it would be possible to chamber barrel in 303 then run something like 30.06 reamer in to give you some kind of improved version.
18 Jan 2016
@ 08:30 am (GMT)

Ben Grady

Re: .303 Wildcat or conversion for an Enfield P14 Action
Hey Thomas
I kinda like the sound of the 303 epps improved with the P14 action. Much like you were originally thinking for yours. My gunsmith can get the reamer no problem. Hugh can do the barrel and away I go. I am just trying to find out true ballistics etc for the epps in a P14 action. There is some in the accurate enfield book but for a no4 action. Supposedly it betters the 308 and close to the 30-06, but it could be biased data. So hoping someone in the know will chip in.
18 Jan 2016
@ 02:23 pm (GMT)

Michael Rayner

Re: .303 Wildcat or conversion for an Enfield P14 Action
I built my own 303 wild cat called the 303 Mad, that is essentially an Epps but I get a couple more extra grains H2o capacity, 66 to be exact. It's built off a No4 action so pressure is an issue so trying to keep it under 53000 psi according to quick load. The whole project has been on the back burner for over a year and a half at the moment until I can get my boyds stock from the US and a descent recoil pad. It plain hurts to shoot it, anyway when I started I used 30-06 starting loads less 2 grains cause that's how short on capacity I am from a 30-06 case. From a 22 inch barrel, initial testing finished up with no sign of pressure.
150 gr @2806 fps avg 5 shots
174 gr @2614 fps avg 5 shots
There might be another hundred fps in it, but I don't want a bolt in the face either.
If I was you I'd screw on a 30-06 barrel, and if I was me again I would have left my new barrel as a standard 303
18 Jan 2016
@ 06:33 pm (GMT)

Ben Grady

Re: .303 Wildcat or conversion for an Enfield P14 Action
Hi Michael

If going to a 30 06 barrel, I would get a P17 (M1917) then the bolt and mag don't need to be altered. I already have a no4 303 that is a shooter so again looking at something different.
19 Jan 2016
@ 02:09 am (GMT)

Michael Rayner

Re: .303 Wildcat or conversion for an Enfield P14 Action
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Hope this works 303 left 303 mad right
19 Jan 2016
@ 02:31 am (GMT)

Michael Rayner

Re: .303 Wildcat or conversion for an Enfield P14 Action
That should give you an idea what an epps would look like, I intially wanted to do an epps but could not get a reamer for love nor money, still got the 303 epps dies from simplex somewhere.
19 Jan 2016
@ 05:48 am (GMT)

Thomas Kitchen

Re: .303 Wildcat or conversion for an Enfield P14 Action
that looks nice Michael, did you get reamer made for it?

Ben have you thought about trying to use a 308 barrel rather then the 310-311 somehow so that it opens up to a whole range of projectiles?
it also means later on you could ream the barrel to a 30cal magnum of some sort if you want more grunt later on
19 Jan 2016
@ 06:39 am (GMT)

Ben Grady

Re: .303 Wildcat or conversion for an Enfield P14 Action
Hmmm I'm not hearing the best about the epps, some saying leave it as a 303.
Now on my mind is the 308 Norma Magnum or the 300win mag.
My gunsmith has done his own 300win mag on a P14 action so he knows exactly what needs to be done. Would the Norma Magnum have noticeably less recoil? Keep the ideas coming.
19 Jan 2016
@ 07:38 am (GMT)

Thomas Kitchen

Re: .303 Wildcat or conversion for an Enfield P14 Action
hi ben.
just been talking to someone about the 303 epps they getting 2900fps with 150gr and 2800fps with 174gr projectiles on no4 rifles.
they have a reamer and have given me there email address if you want to contact them just to talk about the epps.
can't say much on the 308 norma magnum until mines up and running but should be less recoil then win mag plus with a shorter c.o.a.l it means you can run long match style projectiles (208gr amax's).
23 Jan 2016
@ 01:02 pm (GMT)

Michael Rayner

Re: .303 Wildcat or conversion for an Enfield P14 Action
What's the end use going to be? Fire formed cases are a real downer if you lose them in the field especially if they come from something that's hard to get/expensive in the first place.
that said I'm a big fan of 7 mm bullets so maybe you could do a 7mm Epps, or maybe a 7mm off the 7.62x54 improved case which has more capacity than the 30-06, it would be like a 7 saum. But with a ready supply of cheap brass
I'd love to know what powders those guys were using in there No 4s Thomas. I was playing around with QL with those velocities, the pressure was making my eyes water. Re17 was close though on corrected Ba, but it's hard to get
23 Jan 2016
@ 08:40 pm (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: .303 Wildcat or conversion for an Enfield P14 Action
Hi Ben, I think I relayed the following to you by email but just to clarify, my correspondent was running a 174 / 180gr at up to 2700fps. Powder was ADI 2209 from memory. Feeding was an ongoing issue. The Lee magazine won't feed this properly. The P14 can be more user friendly.

Michael has the right approach by setting 2600fps as a safe point. This is already 150-200fps above military loads for the parent.

As I have said in Cartridges book and as Michael has said here, it pays to have an end goal. If you start by determining how the rifle is to be used, it can help the process a great deal.

If your gunsmith has a soft spot for the .300, then it could be nice to go with something like this, knowing that he will be covering ground that is familiar to him. I quite like Thomas's 308 Norma project as it involves a classic rifle design and a classic cartridge. The result will be a hard hitting all around rifle. Recoil between the two .300's is not really something to debate. Both are magnums, both produce recoil, slight changes in stock design and barrel contour will make as much difference as changes in velocity between the two. Both can be downloaded using mild charges of 2217 powder.

Again, have a think about how you intend to use the rifle. The final choice is yours and we can only offer ideas based on our individual hunting methods / conditions / game weights / ranges / fancies etc. You could go with a 7mm of magnum capacity which from a historical perspective was the intended purpose of this action. The choice is yours.
23 Jan 2016
@ 11:20 pm (GMT)

Ben Grady

Re: .303 Wildcat or conversion for an Enfield P14 Action
Here is part of an email from a keen 303 enthusiast that I made contact with. I have only shown the info on velocity etc. And have not used his name, as not sure if he is keen on forums or not.
Starts:
I also hunt with a No4 Mk 1* that I have carried since 1977. It is a typical NZ No4, pruned down wood with a 18 inch barrel. Light and accurate. It is in Epps Improved. I use the Hornady 150 grain SST projectiles and hand load with 59.5 grains 2209. MV is 2900. Basically 3006 performance with increased case life etc.

We both shoot .303 target rifles and compete in the Karori Rifle Club hosted Dick Travis VC .303 nationals for .303 target rifles. This is held at Trentham each year and hotly contested. We shoot No4 rifles that have a standards military look but use target sights etc. Epps Improved chambers really increase the case life and I have loaded the same cases 15 times per season. We shoot Sierra Match Kings 174 gr hollow point boat tail. Load is 53.5 2209 for a mv of around 2800.

I shoot with Wellington Service Rifle Association in the Open class. I use a No4 Mk1. Nothing special but it is bedded 100%, had L39A1 fore end and top hand guard. Parker Hale butt etc. I use Hornady .303 Br 174 grain full metal jacket boat tail projectiles. 47 grains of 2209 for a mv of around 2550 fps from a 20 inch barrel. This is one serious accurate weapon.

So what do I want the rifle for?
1/ I enjoy learning about a new caliber.
2/ I enjoy learning about a new build. (the process)
3/ I enjoy load development.
4/ I like the old actions brought back to life.
5/ Hunting to 500 yards max.Mostly 0-350yards (Using mil dots, not dial up)
6/ Hmmm Maybe longer range in the future? (magnum caliber?)
7/ Love the 303, always wanted one with a mauser action.
8/ If rebarreling to 303, why not go to 303 Epps for extra velocity?
9/ Is a 303 Epps any good for longer shooting? 500-1000 yards?
10/ Was thinking maybe P14 Epps with the open sights? (or a scope)
11/ I like the 7mm Rem mag
12/ I like the 308 norma mag
13/ I like the 300 win mag
14/ I have 400 rounds of 303 ammo

I have my P17 25-06 which is a heavy rifle, so maybe a 303 Epps with a lighter, shorter barrel for the long walks. What length barrel would be appropriate for a 303 Epps?

Most of all I want to have fun shooting.

23 Jan 2016
@ 11:31 pm (GMT)

Bob Mavin

Re: .303 Wildcat or conversion for an Enfield P14 Action
One of my mates has the same rifle but a 308 Epps for a wider range of projectiles to choose from. It works well, similar to my 30-06.
Bob
24 Jan 2016
@ 04:08 am (GMT)

Michael Rayner

Re: .303 Wildcat or conversion for an Enfield P14 Action
With an epps pretty much whatever you would do with a 30-06 you can do, especially with a stronger action like yours.
Secondly Ben I like using ar2209/h4350 because it's pretty accurate through quick load as is only needs slight corrections usually I can predict within 20fps after a few readings. I believe the guys first 150 gr load maybe legit but it's probably pushing a bit over 2800fps @ 58,500psi, from 18 inch barrel, which is fine for you but not so much for a lot of wartime No 4s I bet.
The other loads are probably way off, 174s with 53.5gr would give you about 2,500 fps at 51,500 psi from 18inch barrel
The 20 inch 47.0gr load is probably only doing 2250fps at bugger all pressure.
If you kept the barrel at say 24 inches that first load, 150gr in front of 59.5 gr 2209 should be knocking on 3000fps if that much powder fits in.
Reloder 17 is a much better match for these improved cases but you have to be careful with it because it changes as you go up in bullet weights so carefully kept records from chronograph are vital in plotting the predicted outcome for me.
Based on my data points I've collected for my own improved case, my best guess for a 303 epps with your p14 action 24inch barrel I would expect you could hit a maximum of between 3,000-3,100 for a 150 and 2,800- 2,900 with a 174 and not exceed 60,000 psi using Reloder 17, that would be a best outcome situation and probably 100-150fps less with 2209, in my opinion for what it's worth that's plenty of performance
Also fire forming cases using the parent case of the same caliber is easier you just by a box of 303 shoot it an reload it. You don't have to worry about neck turning or doughnuts or putting crappy corn through.
I dislike short barrelled, light weight high powered rifles myself. It's not fun or comfortable for me during load development or practice
24 Jan 2016
@ 06:14 am (GMT)

Ben Grady

Re: .303 Wildcat or conversion for an Enfield P14 Action
Thanks Michael.
I am nearly convinced to go for the 303 Epps. I discussed it with the gunsmith today and he can get the reamer and a barrel made for it. I am thinking a scope as my 45 year old eyes will only get worse over time. Yep a 24" barrel may be the ticket. My P17 25-06 weighs 5.1 kg with sling and bi-pod but without the bolt and suppressor. What weight are your rifles?
My P17 25-06
24 Jan 2016
@ 07:15 am (GMT)

Michael Rayner

Re: .303 Wildcat or conversion for an Enfield P14 Action
Boy that one came up nice didn't it, we're not allowed a suppressor over here so my rifles as carried in field less cartridges are 4.0kg for 7mm rem mag and 45-70 Marlin, the 303 mad is 4.3 and so is my 243 with bipod. I had a heavy Remington vsf 22-250 that wieghed just under 6 kg all up it was pretty much useless everywhere except off a bench, sold it just before Christmas. The 243 does everything it could do plus some, and is 1.5 kg lighter
26 Jan 2016
@ 05:08 am (GMT)

Thomas Kitchen

Re: .303 Wildcat or conversion for an Enfield P14 Action
glad to hear that, that contact helped out.
be interesting to see what kind of velocity you can get.
that 25-06 sure came up nice.
if you ever decide you want more boom im sure you could do something like a 7mm rem mag necked up to .311 with the same barrel just make sure the knox is of decent size when you do it.
26 Jan 2016
@ 07:38 pm (GMT)

Ben Grady

Re: .303 Wildcat or conversion for an Enfield P14 Action
I see there is a new 375 H&H barrel threaded and chambered for P14 on trade me.
Big Game African Round? Dangerous Game?
26 Jan 2016
@ 10:38 pm (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: .303 Wildcat or conversion for an Enfield P14 Action
Hard to say whether it will head space OK. It will still need work to put this together so there are costs regardless.

As for the cartridge, think about this- there are a vast number of NZ hunters who use the .44 Magnum for close bush work. Rossi or Marlin are the main rifles. The common bullet weight is 240 grains and nobody calls these elephant guns. The .375 H&H fires similar weight bullets. Form one perspective you could say that the only difference between these, is that you can reach out further (across valleys) with the H&H. This statement is obviously very crude and does not take bullet designs and SD's into account etc, the two are not the same. But still.

Sometimes you can be at camp while deer stalking and a hunter will come in to camp and ask what you are using and if you say for example, a .375 H&H or perhaps 8x68, the hunter will say (and this is so common) "there are no elephants around here ". The tone is suggestive that you are a fool with an inference that if you were a truly good hunter, you would not need any more than what that hunter is using. And while this may sometimes be the case, I would prefer to see my readers overgunned than undergunned, providing they can use their rifles adequately. I find that in NZ, some hunters deliberately use very small or low powered cartridges as a form of snobbery (but this can also occur in the opposite extreme). Nevertheless, in camp situations, there is no point making any argument because the hunter is really questioning your abilities and your worth. The cartridge you are using is irrelevant so there is little point justifying your cartridge choice. All you can do is be yourself and for the sake of getting along, agree that shot placement is of the utmost importance but that you like to experiment and enjoy exploring different cartridge designs. Beyond this, the best argument might be: "I won the rifle in a cage fight against a world champion so I thought I might just give it a go. I felt sorry for the other guy though- after I broke his arms".

26 Jan 2016
@ 10:58 pm (GMT)

Martin Taylor

Re: .303 Wildcat or conversion for an Enfield P14 Action
l cop that every time l say its a 9.3mmX62, "bloody elephant gun" would be easier just to say 30-06 then it's just "oh another one!".

I'II take big & slow over small & fast in a bush gun every time now!

 

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