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Sierra Game Kings

06 Apr 2014
@ 01:18 am (GMT)

Jared Thibodaux

After reading nearly the entire knowlage base I have been a little shocked to see that the author gave the SGKs such marginal reviews overall (with a few exceptions) I have used them to great effect for several years, all were very quick one shot kills except a rear hip shot on a feral hog (the only shot he gave me, finished him seconds later with a vitals shot) has anyone else had weak performance from the Sierra? I use them in 6.5X55, 7mm-08, 270 WSM, 7mm Rem Mag, 308, and 30-06 in all cases wounding is very wide and I have never had one fail to penetrate compleatly, even with rakeing shots on hogs. Hard to ask for better performance then that.

Replies

06 Apr 2014
@ 05:03 am (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: Sierra Game Kings
Hi Jared, I am not surprised to hear that you have had good performance with these bullets. I have had good results with the Sierra GK as well. But is was also a GK that let me down many years ago and inspired me to research terminal ballistics, a 6.5x55 Interlock sealed the deal, the result of this being the site you see before you.

I do not know how many animals you have shot in the several years you mentioned, I have now shot many, many thousands of head of game to obtain results and also networked with others both here in NZ and from around the world. I have lost count of how many animals I have shot with the GK during this time. During the course of this research, I came across both strengths and weaknesses of the Gk design, the same can be said of all bullet designs. Even those which I call my favorites have their limitations (which includes the .257" 100 grain GK bullet and .270 cal 130gr bullet).

There are two game animals in NZ which can stop a light to mid weight GK bullet onside, Sus Scrofa boar and Bull Thar. A mature Red stag can also place excessive strain on this bullet design. A reduction in muzzle velocity, increased bullet weight or increased range or a change in shot placement can help the GK. But as each of these variables is pushed too far, the GK again runs into problems. The GK is at times prone to suffer the worst of dilemmas where it can be too frangible for close range work but also too stout for certain game weights or truly long range work. This is very hard to describe quickly within the confines of a forum post.

As I type these words, one of regular posters Jason is contemplating filing flats on his .223 GK bullets because they have proven too stout for his local game, producing pin hole wounds. He is wondering if a flat point will help initiate trauma and allow the load to be used at close to moderate ranges rather than discarding the projectiles. In the .35 thread, Bob has been talking about the wonderful performance of the 225gr bullet. In the Knowledge base, I speak often of full fragmentation and at times, a lack of penetration if bullet weights are not sufficiently matched to game weights. How is it that a light .223 bullet traveling relatively fast can be stout- yet a heavy 225gr bullet can produce semi or full fragmentation. Are these men telling tall stories? Am I making all of this up? It seems that there are many contradictions, yet each of these contradictions is fully quantifiable once we take game weights, ranges, frontal area, shot placement etc into account.

Those who follow my work and books are encouraged to test information for themselves, to gain the same understanding through their own reasoning. The more experience one gains, the more one can make sense of what at first appears to be stark contradictions. I can also tell you that Bob will trust Jason's statements and that Jason will in turn trust Bob. This is because each are on the same page, they either come here with or have gradually developed an understanding of the variables that can effect performance.

You have had a good run with the GameKing bullet, nothing can take that away. I cannot put any argument to you that has more merit than that which you can see with your own eyes. If the bullets you are using are working for you, that is great. This tells us that your bullet weights, impact velocities and local game weights are all very complimentary. Nevertheless, I would urge you to consider what I mentioned earlier, all bullet designs have limitations.

06 Apr 2014
@ 05:08 am (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: Sierra Game Kings
A photo from my second book showing the Gameking:

06 Apr 2014
@ 08:01 am (GMT)

Jared Thibodaux

Re: Sierra Game Kings
I see what you are saying in reguard to its limitations, but as you said the same applys to all bullets yet the SGK seems to get painted an ugly color for it in the database. Now I am in no way shape or form implying that the gameking is as flexable as a Partition, but I would say that between 6.5-7.62mm no animal under 150kg is likely to notice the difference.
The abosolute most damage I have ever personally witnessed from a hunting bullet on thin skin big game is the 165 sgks my brother shoots in my 06. Contents of the chest cavity pour out like a bloody soup, and exit wounds range from fist sized to just larger then a basketball. Needless to say any hit anywhere near the neck or vitals has been a bang flop. 2920fps using 4350 it is a nasty load, which is the reason I leave those for my brother, I like to EAT deer not blow them to bits. Thus far that has been my only gripe with the game kings but they are not alone in that.
06 Apr 2014
@ 08:16 am (GMT)

Bob Mavin

Re: Sierra Game Kings
Hi Jared & Nathan
Those Sierra's in the photo look like my 225g 35cal’s after smashing a big Samba, but they’ve all dropped on the spot. I originally thought they weren’t good enough but nothing has run away (358W is a big calibre though). I really like Woodleigh’s but they’re not as ballistic coefficient as some for the really long shots. The more you study projectiles the harder it is to decide on the pill for the job. Most of my culling is easy to work out, 200m is the longest shot, 358W, big Deer = Woodleigh’s otherwise Sierra Game Kings for me.

If we were shooting animals of one size at one set distance the projectile choice would be easy.

I’m trying to decide on a pill for my 30-06. I mainly use 150 Woodleigh’s or Interbond’s for everything and a few 165 SST’s in my pocket to drop on top for long shots, but the price for the premium pills is killing me. I’m going away for a week tomorrow, Mountains falling to open plains country, so the shot’s will be out to as far as I’m game to take. I’m going to give 165gn SST’s a try (as I don’t need any meat), on Wild Dogs, Fallow, Red Deer and Pigs. I’m thinking the SST’s will be similar performance to Game Kings?

We’re suffering from drought, the property owners have to buy expensive feed in, I don’t like doing it, but I can understand that the farmers are trying desperately to keep their cattle alive and Deer and the likes are difficult to keep out.

Hey Nathan! I’ve got my new 30-06 up and running, it’s awesome, and the Sightron S111 3.5-10x44 is great, love it!!

Regards
Bob
06 Apr 2014
@ 08:43 am (GMT)

Jared Thibodaux

Re: Sierra Game Kings
Mind you I am only speaking in the context of Texas game, mostly deer and hogs to 200lbs within 400 yards. I bow to your vast knowlage of international game of much larger sizes, judging by the fragmentation I get from sgks I am sure you are right about their limited penetration on larger game, but as far as the whitetail hunter is concerned it is more then enough, and that partial fragmentation only makes for more dramatic kills on our thin skinned game. I do not limit myself to Sierra bullets only currently I load bullets from just about everyone but Norma and Winchester, but Sierras are my go to bullet namly because they are so very accurate in every cartridge I load for, in my rifles that like poly tips SSTs rival them though.
06 Apr 2014
@ 08:55 am (GMT)

Jared Thibodaux

Re: Sierra Game Kings
Hey Bob, if you want a 165gr load for your 06 try H414 or 4350 (any flavor) they have given me my best accuracy thus far, right around 1/2 MOA in my Savage. It seems counter intuitive but the slower burning RL19 has worked the best with my lighter 150gr. 61.5gr is giving me 3040fps with TTSX in my 22" tube. SSTs are considerably slower though with the same load, for the life of me I could not tell you why.
For whatever reason my 06 does not like the 165SSTs near as much as the SGKs or Speers, but the 150s shoot very well.
06 Apr 2014
@ 09:28 am (GMT)

jason brown

Re: Sierra Game Kings
I did file down the tips of the .224 gk. they still shot ok. but in my tikka they didn't feed well. more hit on the bottom/outside of the chamber.
so I wont be using them like that.
I only used them for close bush ranges.

I cant find the pictures I took of that deer and cant accurately remember what the wounds were like other than very little expansion, they did exit, but I do remember clearly.... at about 50 yards I shot at the chest/fore leg area, quartering on. and it looked around stunned but un-effected. I thought I missed (later found I hadnt). so I shot again, quartering away. this time it turned and slowly walked off, maybe three metres. then just sat down. it was still very much alive, all be it not feeling so well. I then finished it.
yes the .223 is small. but so are these deer, and this is for short range. iv shot others with much better results using softer projectiles. the game king is doing 3000 fps

another guy told me he had much the same results shooting goats with an ar15.

06 Apr 2014
@ 09:40 am (GMT)

Jared Thibodaux

Re: Sierra Game Kings
I load 55gr SGKs in 22-250, next time a hog walks out in the field I will tell you how they expand at 3400fps. Historicly the 65gr SGK is the best performer in 224 cal, I would use them but they would certainly not stabalize in my 1:14 twist.
06 Apr 2014
@ 12:30 pm (GMT)

Shawn Bevins

Re: Sierra Game Kings
Those bullets in the pictures look exactly like anything I've recovered from White tail deer in the 270 caliber. Most if not all expired within 20 yards of being shot..at 35-175 yds.. If I found the bullet, it was just underneath the hide on the far side. Shots were most likely quatering away shots where the bullet came to rest outsice the shoulder. Beyond 175 yds I don't find many bullets in the animal.
06 Apr 2014
@ 05:10 pm (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: Sierra Game Kings
Hi Bob, glad to hear the 06 is going well.

For Whitetail, the GK has merit, its fully frangible nature and its usage out to moderate ranges are all complimentary. The .270 cal 130 grain bullet is especially ideal for this role. The relatively new 7mm 140gr HPBT also very dramatic. I do not think I have come down exceptionally hard on the bullet design.

I would prefer that you did not use a .22-250 on wild pig if your local mature boar have full shield development and if you use the shoulder as a point of aim. I would also advise against setting out to prove a point. If you do, know that some animal may suffer dire consequences in order for you to prove this point. Yes, you may get a run of excellent results but things can also go horribly wrong.

I have yet to see a small bore GK produce a 10" exit wound.

The new 7mm GK 140 grain HPBT. Entry / exit through chest:



06 Apr 2014
@ 05:54 pm (GMT)

Jared Thibodaux

Re: Sierra Game Kings
Oh no I know better then to put a 22 cal ANYTHING into a boars shield. We kill a lot of 60-150lbs smallish pigs, if we run across a 300lbs Russian head shots are the only option with a small caliber, though we normally carry 270s or better into the swamps. Of course you have not seen a 10" exit wound from a 165SGK only my crazy ass brother would shoot a 60lbs deer through the shoulder with a max load 30-06 at 40 yards, any real hunter would have neck shot it or kept it behind the shoulder at leased. Hitting bone on the way out made that shot the perfect storm of exit wound, but those bullets do routinly leave a gaping hole in any deer they hit. Too much damage for me I stick to 140gr 6.5X55 or 7mm-08 when meat hunting smallish cull deer.
06 Apr 2014
@ 08:48 pm (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: Sierra Game Kings
Good to hear you are taking shot placement and body weights into account on pigs.

I have taken that exact shot on 60lb animals with the .30-06 max loaded with the 165gr GK and shoulder shot placement. I have also done so with the .308 and the magnums, in the shoulder, behind the shoulder, liver, close range, mid range, long range. Shoulder shot placement produces very fast killing on light or lean game but the traditional meat saver shot can produce delayed killing regardless of whether fired from a magnum or .308. I studied this in great depth. Internal wounds with delayed kills were generally around 1.5" in diameter. larger wounding evident with the forwards shoulder shot. The distances that animals ran depended on species, whether the animal was adrenalized before hand and so forth. I found the length of the dead run generally unacceptable for mountain or heavy bush work, the likelihood of a dead run being high due to wind drift (at range) or human error (snap shooting in close). But by increasing game weights, this bullet came into its own which is what I wrote in the knowledge base.

Your brothers particular load and shot placement is optimal for Thar out to ranges of up to 300 through to 400 yards- not that he may ever get to hunt these animals. Oddly enough, the slight step down to the 150gr GK can result in penetration problems on large bulls.

I believe your brother is doing the right thing with shot placement when utilizing this bullet. But- if he wanted to save meat, a simple change in shot placement would be sufficient. A lighter 140gr bullet would not cause less meat damage with the meat saver shot. You must understand that the 165gr bullet is carrying greater momentum, the 140 grain bullets carry less, meet more resistance on impact and therefore impart more energy. Hence why Shawn mentioned finding .270 cal bullets on the offside of game. On 60lb game ulitiling the meat saver shot, both will exit, the light bullet fully fragmented, the heavier bullet partially fragmented.
06 Apr 2014
@ 10:10 pm (GMT)

Jared Thibodaux

Re: Sierra Game Kings
Once I can get my computer back online I will upload a few pics for you detailing the damage I am describing. A few 6"+ an 8" neck wound and that monster 9.5" wide crater that gunshot nearly the whole front half of that deer. I don't know if I got some fluke box of explosive SGKs but I promise it is all true.
BTW I like shoulder shots too but I do not like having to feed the buzzards and yotes the whole front half of a deer. This year I am changing my 06 load to a RL19/150gr TTSX I am getting 3040fps and 3/4 MOA accuracy without even the slightest hint of pressure. I don't expect the dramatic wounds of the SGK but I think it will make for a better combo deer/hog load, with less jello meat. I have never shot anything but paper with the TSX but they get very good reviews in general.
06 Apr 2014
@ 11:35 pm (GMT)

GREGG FOSSE

Re: Sierra Game Kings
Terminal bullet performance is indeed an extremely complex and sometimes mysterious subject. The amount of experience, testing, knowledge and observation evident in this thread alone is nothing short of awesome.

Even with continuing advances in bullet design, the old ways of a large caliber hard cast (or jacketed) bullet at moderate velocity continue to harvest game for many hunters, with the usual provisos of killing speed etc. and the premium bullets seem best utilized for extreme range or dangerous game. There are just so very many permutations and possibilities, the variations are endless.

I so much appreciate being able to access the information here on this site.
11 Apr 2014
@ 06:42 am (GMT)

Bob Mavin

Re: Sierra Game Kings
G'day all
I just got back from a 4 day hunt, happy to say my new 30-06 is great and the 3.5-10 Sightron with mil dots is bloody good too. I was concerned that the 165 SST pill would be too soft at a MV of 2860fps but they preformed perfectly with about 30mm exit wounds even after smashing back bones. Everything I shot never moved an inch.
All my shots were in what I refer to as the Hillar shot, high and slightly forward of the shoulder. I shot Fallow, Pigs & Goats.
I fluked some great video footage, I was filming three Wedge Tail Eagles eating some guts I left in a little clearing when a big fox came and tried to steal it. Very entertaining but the Wedgie had it over the Fox.
Cheers
Bob
12 Apr 2014
@ 03:13 am (GMT)

Mike Neeson

Re: Sierra Game Kings
Are you going to upload some of your footage Bob?
12 Apr 2014
@ 05:55 am (GMT)

Bob Mavin

Re: Sierra Game Kings
G'day Mike.
My nephew is going to have a look at it for me. I recorded in high definition its a huge file. Dave is going to make it suitable for sharing. That stuff is beyond me!

<a href="http://s345.photobucket.com/user/rmavin/media/OFFICE/Pictures/2014-04-09/430mBuck_zpsd0aff4a0.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p400/rmavin/OFFICE/Pictures/2014-04-09/430mBuck_zpsd0aff4a0.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 430mBuck_zpsd0aff4a0.jpg"/></a>
12 Apr 2014
@ 05:58 am (GMT)

Bob Mavin

Re: Sierra Game Kings
12 Apr 2014
@ 05:58 am (GMT)

Bob Mavin

Re: Sierra Game Kings
I give up!!!!!
12 Apr 2014
@ 06:07 am (GMT)

Mike Neeson

Re: Sierra Game Kings
I got the piccie in my emailed version. Nice buck. Great photo. Boy that rifle barrel does have a big hole in it... Thanks.
12 Apr 2014
@ 06:14 am (GMT)

Bob Mavin

Re: Sierra Game Kings
Hi Mike
I know nothing about photo bucket. I have a lot of learning to do!!!!

Must be the photo angle??? It's a 30-06.
I'll get the fox & Wedge Tail vid on there if I can. It's worth watching!
Where do you live Mike?
Bob
12 Apr 2014
@ 09:13 am (GMT)

Mike Neeson

Re: Sierra Game Kings
Hervey Bay.
12 Apr 2014
@ 05:10 pm (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: Sierra Game Kings
Hi Bob, you were nearly there. At photo bucket, there is a right side menu beside the photo (links to share this photo). On the line that reads IMG, you simply click on the code and it automatically copies. After that, go to the bottom of your prospective post and hit CTRL and V at the same time (paste).

Job done.
12 Apr 2014
@ 06:18 pm (GMT)

Bob Mavin

Re: Sierra Game Kings
Thanks Nathan
I tell yah!!! It would be quicker to train a monkey.

That Buck was shot at 430m with a 165gn SST with my 30-06, it smashed through bone and the exit hole was about 30mm. I think I'll stay with them.

Nathan , Is it possible to upload some footage of the Wedge Tail & Fox sparing ?
Bob
12 Apr 2014
@ 11:36 pm (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: Sierra Game Kings
Hi Bob, you can link to youtube but that is all, you cannot insert an iframe. Use the link tag, top right (image of a chain and earth). It should look like this:

bobsvideoetc
 

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