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Forum Index > Rifles general discussion > Something Different -A Rafting Trip/Bear Hunting Rifle

Something Different -A Rafting Trip/Bear Hunting Rifle

01 Nov 2018
@ 08:44 pm (GMT)

Luke Schmidt

Thanks to Nathan's advice I have put together a 375 Ruger for Alaskan hunting. It still needs a few tweaks over the winter but its basically sound and it covers my moose/bear hunting needs.

The problem is I have another hobby which is packrafting. This involves hiking to remote rivers with a backpacking kit plus a rafting kit. Even if you pack light this is a heavy sport. I would like a light rifle I could take on such a trip so I could hunt the mountains and raft out a river. For such a trip weight is at a premium but i want a bear stopper so the normal ultralight mountain rifles don't quit fit the bill. I've considere several options.

1. A takedown Browning BLR in either 450 Marlin or 300 Win Mag. I'm not in love with the BLR and I don't like the caliber options so probably not. The new Winchester 450 takedown is too expensive for such a specialty gun.

2. A short and light lever action, probably a Model 94 in 444 or 450 Marlin. Thse are expenive and short ranged.

3. My final plan is a short barrel medium bore such as the 35 Whelen. Based on my math a 35 Whelen with a 18-20 inch barrel would still give mw more reach then a big bore lever actuon.

So with a that background here is my plan. I will purchase a Savage bolt action used and rebarrel it to 35 Whelen with a 18-2 inch barrel. I'll stick a 1-4 power scope on top and accurize per Nathan's instructions. I'm aiming for a ready to go weight of about 7-7.5 pounds. I figure such a rifle could handle a bear to 150 yards and non-,dangerous stuff to more like 250 with the right loads. It will be a lot easier to carry and strap on a raft than mt big 375.

I know this isn't an optimal design but I think it still beats a lever action. If i take a young friend caribou hunting I can also load some light smmo to 35 Rem or 358 levels to have a descent kid gun.

Any thoughts? The other idea is to cut another 375 down to carbine length and to handload it a bit lighter. A Browning A bolt in 375 with a shortened barrel might do the trick. I'm thinking lightish loads wirh 235 gr TSX bullets woyld work on bears and 235 gr GK rounds would work on everything else.

Thoughts? Has anyone built a short 35 Whelen?

Replies

01 Nov 2018
@ 11:57 pm (GMT)

Paul Leverman

Re: Something Different -A Rafting Trip/Bear Hunting Rifle
Not quite sure why you would say the 444 and 450 are short ranged. At 250 yards these are more than adequate for moose. If you are using the big bores as bear protection, it won't be at 150 yards, so a bolt action may not be a good choice. If you are hunting bear, the Whelen is a good choice, but you should also consider the .358 Norma Mag, it's not that much more recoil, but then the weight factor comes into it.

Here's a couple for consideration:

[/url]https://www.marlinfirearms.com/lever-action/model-1895-big-bore[/url]

http://www.baikalcanada.com/rifles_combo_artemida.htm
02 Nov 2018
@ 03:53 am (GMT)

Luke Schmidt

Re: Something Different -A Rafting Trip/Bear Hunting Rifle
Paul we are talking hunting not defense. I actually like lever actions and may try a 45-70 some day but I think a 35 Whelen is a bit more useful. Looking at the math the 35 Whelen has a flatter trajectory and it keeps shock killing velocities out to longer range. The Norma is interesting but 35 Whelen is easier to find ammo and reloading stuff for.
02 Nov 2018
@ 05:48 am (GMT)

Luke Schmidt

Re: Something Different -A Rafting Trip/Bear Hunting Rifle
If you aren't familiar with packrafting here are some examples?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DP9NL6S-0BgI&ved=2ahUKEwi52oiJ0rPeAhWLJTQIHcKDBa4QwqsBMAB6BAgJEAU&usg=AOvVaw2wRjlW5omGx7AUhykKeN_k


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DSBh_36AHgYg&ved=2ahUKEwiOufSm0rPeAhWDLn0KHYhKAgoQwqsBMAF6BAgIEAg&usg=AOvVaw2R7ko-dtZfZPJEqpxiWDyg

As you can see short, light and waterproof are important. I would probably strap the rifle onto the raft behind the seat.
02 Nov 2018
@ 08:17 am (GMT)

Warwick Marflitt

Re: Something Different -A Rafting Trip/Bear Hunting Rifle
Hey Luke. Fantastic trip mate. Amazing
02 Nov 2018
@ 11:05 am (GMT)

Martin Taylor

Re: Something Different -A Rafting Trip/Bear Hunting Rifle
Affordable & off the shelf, light weight heavy game stopper, hard to beat a Tikka T3X SS. Not available in 35whelen but its slightly bigger Euro mate the 9.3mmX62 gets good factory backing, here in OZ anyway(not sure if its the same where you are Luke).

Dock the barrel & stick on a generous eye relief scope like the VXR Leupold. Could pack that all day and easily add weight to the stock if needed.
02 Nov 2018
@ 02:13 pm (GMT)

Luke Schmidt

Re: Something Different -A Rafting Trip/Bear Hunting Rifle
Martin a Tikka would work but they don't seem to be terribly popular here. A barrel change on a Savage would probably be cheapest (although I might have to fiddle with it morw to get the best accuracy).
02 Nov 2018
@ 05:14 pm (GMT)

John D. Hays - New Mexico

Re: Something Different -A Rafting Trip/Bear Hunting Rifle

Luke,

BudsGunShop.com currently has this for sale for $248 USD after Mfg. rebate

Thompson/Center Compass 300 Win Mag 24"

There are other calibers as well. These are reputed to be quite accurate (1 MOS/SUB MOA) for a plastic and “CAD/CAM” action and barrel. Put on a very good quality, waterproof, 3-9 scope, used, and you’re off for about $300 USD.

Before you go spray all the metal parts with CRC Long Life (that Nathan loves) to inhibit rust.

This makes a lightweight, inexpensive rifle in a real caliber that you don’t need to worry about buggering upon a rough trip.
02 Nov 2018
@ 05:52 pm (GMT)

Luke Schmidt

Re: Something Different -A Rafting Trip/Bear Hunting Rifle
Thanks for the tip John. That one is a bit long for this purpose. I'm shooting for an overall lengrh of 40 inches or less since I'll be dragging it through brush a lot.But I'll keep it in mind when its time ro think about a sheep hunting rifle.
04 Nov 2018
@ 10:33 am (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: Something Different -A Rafting Trip/Bear Hunting Rifle
Hi Luke, if you go through the KB, .358 section, I have noted the effect of docking a .358 barrel. Those were from actual tests, Budget on 25fps per inch.

These days I would tend to agree with your thinking. Levers are great but if you get one with a finicky assembly, the first shot may be on the money but it may string by about 3 MOA when warm, even after accurizing. The more powerful the lever action, the worse the potential effect. It really all depends on how far we want to shoot. The Brownings seem like the fix, but the forend assembly can be a curse along with the trigger and scope positioning. Its still very hard to beat a basic bolt action. But as I have said many times, stock design is the key if you want to up the power. I cringed at one of the rifles you mentioned cutting down.

Plastic stocked rifles are OK but some don't take the hard knocks so well so watch out for that. Some bedding can go a long way. It is a pity that the current trends are towards switch barrel rifles. Its a bit silly taking the barrel off when a folding butt would be much more convenient for many hunters, even if this does not achieve the shortest possible length. But alas, if you want a removable or folding butt, you end up with all the lego that comes with it.

Short and light bush guns are very popular here in NZ at the moment, most are built on the Tikka action but everyone seems to have their own take on a short plastic stocked rifle at the moment. In NZ the short rifles are always suppressed which decreases the recoil to some degree, allowing the use of a less than desirable stock shape. Once you go below 20", noise also become a major issue which is again reduced via the muffler.

As most know, carbon fiber is the in thing at the moment for weight reduction. But we should avoid being naive about this. I have watched Clive Judd performing destruction tests on his prototype stocks and can state that to make a stock truly tough, there will always be some weight.

Of the plastic stocks, I still believe that Ramline has the toughest offerings. Ergonomically, if you go thinner (mass) than a Ramline at the forend, things start to get silly in the more potent chamberings. The Ramline should be viewed as a good minimum.

As an aside, if you want something off the shelf, the Ruger American .450 Bush Master might (and I mean might) suit. It is a very short factory rifle. Still not the same as a nicely balanced Whelen.

I don't think having two .375's is ideal, could lead to brass mix ups if each has unique pet loads.

I really only have one piece of advice for you and for others. When building light, do not confuse weight with mass. This may seem obvious but it is a major issue with rifle builds. I believe that the vast majority of gun makers do not know how to achieve this balance.
04 Nov 2018
@ 11:44 am (GMT)

Warwick Marflitt

Re: Something Different -A Rafting Trip/Bear Hunting Rifle
Luke. As you already have a 375 why not stay with that calibre and make a 375 Steyr which is a
375 Whelen Ackley Improved kinda? Just in 375
I found this review on line. .....
https://sportsafield.com/which-375-should-you-choose/

In 2000, in cooperation with Steyr, Hornady developed the .376 Steyr, following Jeff Cooper’s concept of a “big bore scout rifle”—light and handy, yet powerful enough to keep you out of trouble with the big stuff. The case is .30-06-length but slightly fatter; it propels a 270-grain .375 bullet at 2600 fps, meaningful velocity that develops just over 4000 ft-lbs of energy. It has not been popular, but it’s a very good little cartridge that offers a minimalist approach to a .375.

I have a .376 Steyr; the cartridge is absolutely buffalo-capable…but it’s also a useful North American cartridge for tough game. It hasn’t been to Africa, but it’s been as far afield as Greenland for muskox and Donna has it on a bear hunt in Idaho while I’m scribbling away.
Although it fits handily into a .30-06-length action, few manufacturers offer it. Ours is an MGA rifle on a left-hand Remington action. Ammo is single-source from Hornady. In addition to the 270-grain load they offer a 225-grain load at the same velocity. The light bullet reduces recoil significantly for range work, and would be fine for anchoring hogs and such. If heavier bullets or solids are desired, handloading or custom suppliers are the only options.

Or keep it simple get a bi closer and use one of these
https://www.google.com/search?client=ms-android-samsung&biw=360&bih=328&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=5iLeW7jyCsrgvASKxKKIDw&ins=true&q=single+shot+20+gauge+slug+gun&oq=single+shot+20+gauge+slug+gun&gs_l=mobile-gws-wiz-img.3..0i30j0i8i30j0i24.8383.21023..21208...3.0..0.589.2871.2-8j5-1......0....1.........0.uF0zCVk2hu8#imgrc=Qdvmre0z91q8HM:&isa=y
04 Nov 2018
@ 06:21 pm (GMT)

Luke Schmidt

Re: Something Different -A Rafting Trip/Bear Hunting Rifle
Thanks for the info Nathan. I know you're busy. I have gone through your 358 KB and I've studied the 45-70 article as well. It was actually your discussion on hydrostatic shock and velocity cut offs that inspired me to look at the 35 Whelen as a better bear gun than a 45-70. I don't have the notes here but I calculated velocity loss for 225 grain handloads and I think I could go as short as 18 inches and still be above 2200 fps at 150 yards which would be my cutoff for shooting a grizzly. I believe I would hit 1800 fps at around 300 yards give or take a bit. And the trajectory is flatter than a 45-70.

Nathan I'm assuming the A-Bolt was the one that made you cringe due to the thin stock I've pretty much ruled it out for a variety of reasons. Actually I know the older Savage rifle stocks were not great for recoil but some of the newer ones have straighter stocks that look better. I might add tape or something to make the less slippery and a new stock is not out of the question. At a minimum I would bed it.

I agree with you on fiberglass stocks Nathan. There is only so much weight to be saved. I looked at an older Mcmillan and its almost as heavy as my original Hogue stock( the one without the aluminium chasis) and I don't think you could make it much lighter at least not for a heavy kicker like a 375 or 35 Whelen. I looked into folding stocks or building my own stock that could screw off at the wrist. Right now I think just a short enough rifle will do the trick. If I use a short barrel and shorter length of pull the rifle should be 36-38 inches long (I normally shorten stocks anyways, I'm 5-8 and normally layered up when I'm hunting). That should be easy enough to carry or strap to a raft.

The 450 Ranch Rifle does look cute but I'm not sure I would tackle a grizzly with it. Its less then a 45-70 which you considered a bit slow for fast kills. I feel like a 35 Whelen is just a more flexible gun all around.

Werewick I have thought about a 376 Steyr build as well as the 350 Remington Magnum. But they are harder to get ammo and brass for here. If I saw a good deal on either I would grab. If not, I'm liking the 35 Whelen because I can do the gunsmithing myself (at least if I stick with a Savage). I don't want to spend to much on a rifle that is not my primary hunting rifle.
04 Nov 2018
@ 10:47 pm (GMT)

Warwick Marflitt

Re: Something Different -A Rafting Trip/Bear Hunting Rifle
Yeah Luke. The 35 Whelen is a great choice. I did suggest a single shot 20 gauge rifled barrel shotgun like this one. Just an idea for thought.?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=V1W4k3ZMR-M
05 Nov 2018
@ 06:29 am (GMT)

Thomas Kitchen

Re: Something Different -A Rafting Trip/Bear Hunting Rifle
hi Luke
bergara does a 45/70 single shot take down.
i believe in north america they are known as cva rifles and also do a whelen barrel.

other option could be a 338 win mag, there's plenty of cheap stainless options from manufactures like ruger, savage and howa even a tikka
normally i would say they are a little light (7.5lbs) but i think thats what your after.

as martin mentioned the 9.3 could be useful, there tends to be a few second hand husqvarna rifle floating around which the ones i have seen are well made short handy rifles

in nz you would just go buy a 308 but not sure i would be in a hurry to tackle a bear with a 308

look forwards to hearing what you decide
05 Nov 2018
@ 02:37 pm (GMT)

Luke Lahdenranta

Re: Something Different -A Rafting Trip/Bear Hunting Rifle
How about something like this Savage 110 Brush Hunter 338 Win Mag ?

Offers a stainless steel, 20" barrel, adjustable LOP, factory iron sights and 7 3/8 lb weight.

The short barreled 338 mag is going to be pretty 'blasty' but so would a 20" Whelen or even 30-06 for that matter. But the easy factory ammo and components options for the 338 is a good thing. Seems like a pretty painless and not too expensive way to get most of what you are looking for. If you did end up not liking it for that purpose I would think a handy rifle like that would be easy to sell in Alaska and get most your money back anyways.

https://www.savagearms.com/firearms/centerfire/model-110/110-brush-hunter
05 Nov 2018
@ 04:19 pm (GMT)

Bob Mavin

Re: Something Different -A Rafting Trip/Bear Hunting Rifle
I use a Sako L579 22" barrel chambered in 358 Winchester, 8lb all up. I neck up 308 Lapua Palmer cases (small rifle primer) ADI 2206H, 225gn projectile at a measured 2620fps. It's a good compact hard hitting rifle, either Woodleigh 225gn PP or Sierra game king 225 BTHP, the recoil is surprisingly mild, more of a big push and very accurate, regularly shoot Deer at 300yds.
06 Nov 2018
@ 08:47 am (GMT)

Calin Brabandt

Re: Something Different -A Rafting Trip/Bear Hunting Rifle
When I lived in Oregon, I longed to run the lower John Day river to hunt elk. Much of the hunting unit is just about inaccessible by any other means. The advantage of the John Day run is there exists a good vehicle accessible put-in and take-out so weight is not quite so much of a factor. Please let us know how your pack rafting hunt turns out!
06 Nov 2018
@ 09:26 am (GMT)

Warwick Marflitt

Re: Something Different -A Rafting Trip/Bear Hunting Rifle
Some questions. What is the best style of firearm that's easily cleaned and ready for use after being submerged in water can take the knocks and scrapes of the river rafting environment? Answer that question and the calibre will be secondary to the ability of the tool to fit in the environment of use. Maybe peep sights and practice using a full, half and tip of the blade sight for drop? They may be better than a scope? Keeping bulk to a minimum and ruggedness in mind. A folding rifle with thumb hammer might have what's needed in this application? You might have to practice on your sneaking skills and getting a bit closer! For that one good shot!!!
06 Nov 2018
@ 12:44 pm (GMT)

PJ Myers

Re: Something Different -A Rafting Trip/Bear Hunting Rifle
So the objective is bear hunting vs bear defense, right?
06 Nov 2018
@ 03:38 pm (GMT)

Luke Schmidt

Re: Something Different -A Rafting Trip/Bear Hunting Rifle
Guys single shots are out if I am intentionally pursuing a grizzly. Now I do have a plan for an ultralight single shot but that's for my plan to raft and hunt the South Island of NZ if I ever get down there.

Iron sites are an idea. I plan to put a nice set on and see how well I can shoot although I'll probably put a quick detach scope on.

I used to have a 338 Savage Brush Gun. Its only lighter then my 375 because it has a flimsy stock. The barrel/action is probably heavier. Another knock is that 338 ballistics don't look all that great in a short barrel.

This project is looking more and more like a big bore Scout Rifle minus the forward mounted scope. I'll keep you guys updated.
07 Nov 2018
@ 12:06 pm (GMT)

JOHN HAYS

Re: Something Different -A Rafting Trip/Bear Hunting Rifle

Luke, Luke . . .

No single shot rifle? where is the courage of you convictions?

;-)
08 Nov 2018
@ 09:06 am (GMT)

Luke Lahdenranta

Re: Something Different -A Rafting Trip/Bear Hunting Rifle
Since you have a good bear stopper in your Ruger Alaskan 375 why don't you just buy a McMillan fiberglass stock for that? With the edge fill (ultralight) you would probably save a pound of weight over the Ruger laminate stock. You could just download the 375 a little to 35 Whelen ballistic while it's wearing the light stock and save the full power loads for the laminate stock. You can add a NECG Ruger peep sight and that would get you out to 200 yards easy. Or the Leupold FX2 2.5x is only 6.5 Oz weight.

I bet that combo would make your weight and length requirements. If you bed the stocks I bet when you swapped them they would return close to zero as well. With different stocks and quick detach scopes/sights your one rifle would essentially be 'modular' for either use.
08 Nov 2018
@ 07:07 pm (GMT)

Warwick Marflitt

Re: Something Different -A Rafting Trip/Bear Hunting Rifle
Quote:

Luke, Luke . . .

No single shot rifle? where is the courage of you convictions?

;-)


Because John. He hasn't seen one of these.
https://www.guns.com/news/review/gun-review-chiappa-triple-threat-shotgun-video

https://www.chiappafirearms.com/p_zoom/p_zoom.php?id=515&t=1
09 Nov 2018
@ 08:41 am (GMT)

JOHN HAYS

Re: Something Different -A Rafting Trip/Bear Hunting Rifle
Luke and Warwick,

“One shot, one kill.”

I think,

with Grizzly Bears,

this is true,

One way or the other.

:-o

11 Nov 2018
@ 09:36 am (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: Something Different -A Rafting Trip/Bear Hunting Rifle
One thing I want to add to this thread - Marty's post. It was a shame to see this skipped over.

The rifle Marty mentioned is as light as one could possibly go with a medium bore of this power. It is ready to go out of the box. The action length is to be considered short and light for a long action therefore minimizing weight (yet plenty of allowable OAL for 9.3). The barrel is as thin as you can go. A percentage of folk do not have the grip strength for this particular combo, not enough to shoot accurately across a river basin. Its not a failing, it is simply the fact that many folk have desk jobs these days. But if you are rafting, your grip strength should be very good. You could make good use of this little rifle. Its about as small as you can go at this recoil level and should be considered already undersized for general hunting. So do keep this option in mind because it is basically an out of the box light weight mild power version of your .375.
11 Nov 2018
@ 09:38 am (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: Something Different -A Rafting Trip/Bear Hunting Rifle
Next time you got o a gun store Luke, see if you can pick up a Tikka Lite Stainless. Just pick it up and hold it for a minute, compare it to others. You won't want to go lighter than this. We already make a lot of jokes about it here- "don't leave it sitting on a ridge, it will blow away" etc. Worth having a look over.
 

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