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Forum Index > Rifles general discussion > Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 Yards

Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 Yards

22 Jul 2018
@ 08:40 am (GMT)

Ryan Nafe

Fellas,

Firstly let me say thanks to everyone for the replies and information they shared in my two recent posts. Life gets a little busy sometimes and I get forgetful, so don’t take it too seriously if I don’t reply right away or respond to every individual.


Here’s the situation that prompted this particular post:

The rifle, cartridge, and ammunition I’m using for whitetail deer is as close to optimal as I could reasonably ask expect. 20” barrel .308 Winchester, 165 grain Superformance SST’s at just over 2,700 FPS. For the game weights of 150 to 225 pounds, this is just fine. BUT, I’m somewhat bored with this combination and want to experiment with a new setup that consistently offers significantly faster killing.

The main options I’m considering are these:

- .45-70 (full-power loads suitable for levers and Ruger #1)
- .270 WSM
- 7mm Rem. Mag. (Maybe WSM)
- .35 Whelen


I would appreciate some input on what you guys think would provide the fastest killing possible for the above mentioned game weights, out to about 125 yards. Handloading is an option, as is factory ammo. One major consideration is that I would really like to keep the overall length of the rifle to an absolute maximum of 44 inches.

Replies

22 Jul 2018
@ 09:46 am (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 Yards
Hi Ryan, you might quite enjoy the Rem Mag. It is a pity that the rifle is not also going to be used for longer ranges as you could then justify a 7mm Practical to really change things up if boredom is a factor. This cartridge never ceases to amaze me when used inside 400 yards, it hits so darned hard. But anyway, the Rem Mag would give you something quite different from what you are using.

Just as an aside from the 125 yard work, recently I was out with Steph on a quick mission for dog tucker goats. It was a very misty day, visibility came and went with each gust of wind. A goat would appear then disappear in the mist. We were in a good spot, allowing a wide view, if only the mist would leave. In any cases, I needed 6 animals to fill the freezer so I loaded up and waited, the mist broke for a few seconds and a faint goat image appeared at around 300 yards, no time to range, just aim and shoot. by the time the bullet arrived on target, the mist engulfed the animal but I could hear the whack. I did this over and over again as gaps in the mist allowed for each shot at a ghostly image. Then finally a long shot and again with no time for ranging, probably around 400 yards, bang, all four legs straight up in the air, then engulfed by the mist again. I was sure each of the other hits were good but you never can tell, there is always potential error when snapping off shots. But as it turned out, the results were obvious, hard emphatic kills, no tracking, raw power. This is pretty much what you are talking about - a bit of X factor.
22 Jul 2018
@ 10:53 am (GMT)

Ryan Nafe

Re: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 Yards
Thanks Nathan, that goat hunting situation sounds quite interesting. I would really like to try hunting at longer ranges like that but unfortunately it’s quite difficult here because of the topography and population density. Coyotes can often be shot across fields, deer sometimes as well, but the vast majority of whitetail deer are taken in the woods, probably 200 yards and under.

As for the 7mm Rem Mag, there is a local store that keeps a regular supply of Federal’s 160 grain Partition on the shelf, that’s one of the primary reasons I became interested in that cartridge. The 2nd edition cartridge book as well as the Knowledgebase seems to indicate that that exact ammo would be among the best factory rounds available for my situation.


Just for clarity, there is actually a practical need for some decently-fast kills, at least markedly faster than the .308 provides, for these main reasons:

- I hunt a 40 acre lot, and my personal spot is almost exactly in one corner of the land. I can actually see parts of the line fence, so it would be nice to anchor game on the spot. Our hunting neighbors are decent people but it would still be preferable to not have any interaction at all, it keeps potential conflicts/feuds to a minimum.

- Occasionally the animals are moving fast enough or appear suddenly enough that it would be nice to have a little more margin of error with regards to shot placement.
22 Jul 2018
@ 11:28 am (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 Yards
To get the X factor you are wanting Ryan, it will be best to go faster than the fed load.

I seldom recommend the Tikka magnums due to the short magazines but if you want to use factory ammo, try the Tikka Varmint with Superformance ammo. The reamer that Tikka use suits this ammo well, normally shoots either the 154 or 162gr SST very accurately, giving a clear 3000fps.

Otherwise, hand loading is the way to go, looking for sweet spots at around 3070fps with a 160-162gr pill.
22 Jul 2018
@ 11:46 am (GMT)

Michael Rayner

Re: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 Yards
My experience with full power 45-70 loads are, they aren’t particularly much fun when you let one off. I’m talking a 350gr flat nose at about 2100fps, recoil is pretty stout. Bullets are too tough to get any notable knock down advantage on animals lightly constructed, than the factory Hornady 325gr Leverevolution stuff. which is what I buy an use exclusively now. I have about 200 350gr already loaded from years ago that I’m in no hurry to shoot. I reckon a 300-325gr around 2,000-2,100 out of a lever action would be good. A better killer alround for sure would be a 7mm Rem mag I have mainly used it with 150 gr Noslers and results on pigs up to 110kgs have been emphatic. But in saying that when the excrement hits the fan with big pigs in close there’s nothing like having a lever action 45-70 in the hand.
You could also try a 150gr in your 308 and run it a bit faster and see how you go, that was my preferred weight when I had a 308 many years ago
23 Jul 2018
@ 03:31 am (GMT)

Ryan Nafe

Re: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 Yards
Thanks Nathan, I’ll consider your suggestions about the 7mm Mag. I’ll see if I can find one of those Tikka varmints around here or online, compare it to some others.

Michael, yeah the hot .45-70 ammo can definitely kick pretty hard. The warmest stuff I’ve shot of that is a 300 grain Hornady hollow point at about 2,050, shooting offhand (standing up, a bench would add to the pain) with a Ruger #1. I would describe it as similar to the recoil of a 1oz. 12 gauge slug. The stuff I’d be considering would be at least 200 FPS faster than that. I had actually done a pretty decent amount of ballistics calculation in order to find the muzzle velocity I’d need to have so that the bullet remains above 1,750 FPS out to 125 yards. That way it would be the maximum performance for the least amount of recoil. But a gun like that would definitely wallop the shoulder.

23 Jul 2018
@ 12:24 pm (GMT)

Bob Mavin

Re: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 Yards
Hi Ryan

"unfortunately it’s quite difficult here because of the topography and population density"

With a suitable projectile the 308 is ideal out to 125yds. I also use a 358 Winchester.

Cheers
Bob
23 Jul 2018
@ 06:10 pm (GMT)

Mike Davis

Re: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 Yards
thanks Bob....I wondered when someone would point out the obvious.
try a soft 180 grn load..the winchester factory old school cup n core worked really well for me and Ive now loaded up some hornady 180grn round nose and results so far have impressed..... personally I think its great when you can get bored with how easily your rifle and load combination drops deer. the difference is I think thats what you should stick with,embrace what is working and if you must tweak it do so in small steps. as for how fast it will kill.... the 180 factory at 50 ish yards left blood trail like someone was using a 6" paint brush and stag got 20ish yards and was bled out and dead as a dodo when my dog pounced on him to find out.
23 Jul 2018
@ 07:22 pm (GMT)

Bob Mavin

Re: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 Yards
When I get a rifle sorted out, working perfectly, I start looking for another challenge.

For Ryan's confined area, the 308 is perfect, 168gn A-Max @2700 odd will drop them
24 Jul 2018
@ 07:39 am (GMT)

Ryan Nafe

Re: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 Yards
I think it’s probably been discussed here somewhere before, and my uncle is currently borrowing my copy of Nathan’s rifle book, but has anyone had good results with the Remington 700 Long Range in either blues or stainless?

They appear to be an SPS with heavy barrel and Bell and Carlson stock.
24 Jul 2018
@ 08:00 am (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 Yards
To Bob and Mike, I sure do love the .308, loaded as you guys have described. Hornady now also make a Black label 168gr load, goes 2670fps as per its advertised specs from a 20" tube and relatively accurate which is great for a budget load (not that its a budget load by the time it hits our shores).

Ryan, the 700 LRH is as rough as guts. I love the darned things. Take them in, trick them up as per the Accurizing book / 700 trouble shooting vid, then go shoot. My hunting buddy Kelvin has gone a step further with his recent LRH purchase, reamed to 7mm Practical before it had a shot through it. What a rifle.

Do consider what I said about reamer designs. The LRH has a harder time with the factory SST loads than the Tikka. So if you want to shoot factory only, then the LRH may not be the best for you, although accuracy with factory loads should be ample for 125 yards.
25 Jul 2018
@ 03:29 am (GMT)

Ricardo Laborin

Re: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 Yards
+ Assuming factory loads in the 7mmRM - the Sendero suffers the same fate as the LRH??

+ In your opinion, which non-custom rifles are the best to handle Superformance and Precision Hunter loads??

Saludos!
25 Jul 2018
@ 03:43 am (GMT)

Ryan Nafe

Re: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 Yards
Thanks guys. Nathan, does the distinction between the Tikka and Remington hold true across the whole range of Tikka modes? Or is it just the Varmint?

I may have just been presented with a solution to this:

My sister gave me her .25-06 yesterday, as she no longer hunts (clearly she’s insane). It’s a basic Savage 22” barrel, from around 2012. I think I’m going to try shooting some of Hornady’s 90 grain GMX Superformance or Full Boar ammo, the advertised MV is 3,350 which should be around 3,275 from that rifle. If the stuff groups well then I’ll bring it along this year and try it out. It would be interesting to try that GMX alongside the Winchester BST 115 grain at 3,060 and note differences in killing speed, internal wounding, etc.

Do you guys think the .25-06 would work for this situation of being bored and wanting faster killing?
25 Jul 2018
@ 08:31 am (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 Yards
Hi Ricardo, just the Tikka for now (as far as high probabilities). When David Manson and I are finished upgrading reamers, it would be nice to think that manufacturers will pick up on them but I have no idea what will actually happen there.

Ryan, as much as I like the .2506, on the body weights you have mentioned there will not be a meaningful difference. You will have upped the velocity but decreased the bullet weight so not a lot has changed apart from a loss in consistency across the velocity / energy spectrum. Most of my readers get their wow factor going the other way towards that which Mike and Bob have already suggested. And although highly frangible, those who own .308's can get a feel for the .25-06 by running the 110gr V-Max in the .308. Although there are differences, one can get the flavor so to speak.

The trouble with boredom is that it has the double edge of distraction. Nevertheless, the Savage might just be a suitable distraction, something to pass the time.
25 Jul 2018
@ 11:18 am (GMT)

Ryan Nafe

Re: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 Yards
Alright so what I’m going to do, in order to make sure that I actually understand what you guys are saying, is to restate the arguments as clearly as I can. If you see an error in the way I restate the argument then I would really appreciate it if you could clarify the point in question.

Nathan’s Arguments:

In terms of the speed of killing for the game weights I encounter, there won’t be a meaningful difference between the .25-06 and the .308, though it may well be interesting to experiment with the .25-06 for it’s own sake, just for the relative newness of it to me (Ryan).

If you want a rifle in 7mm Rem Mag and you don’t want to have to tinker with hand loads, then a Tikka is the best bet because it’s chamber dimensions will usually match quite well to the factory Superformance loads.

Mike’s and Bob’s Arguments:

To increase speed of killing within the rifle setup I’m currently using, it would be a good idea to try several soft 180 grain bullets and/or a mid weight A-Max/ELD-M.




Do I have that right everyone? I just wanna make sure I really understand what’s been said before I say anything else.
25 Jul 2018
@ 05:45 pm (GMT)

Mike Davis

Re: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 Yards
yip I think that about sums it up.....re the .25/06 Vs .308
I use a .270 most of the time and it kills fine and dandy.... the .308 is new to me but I have a fair handle on it having used other .30 cals over the years.
they both kill deer deader than dead...the .270 does it a bit flatter in trajectory and the 08 can use heavier pills for better penertration. the .25/06 CANT do anything the other 2 cant do just as well if not better..... you have an area you hunt where you want fast kills....in MY opinion the PLACEMENT of the bullet is of more importance than what it is within reason..... Ive said this before and will say it again...... they cant go anywhere if you take the front wheels out. bring point of aim forward so you smash at least one shoulder and angle into chest cavity and your venison will be dead within a few yards....you dont loose much meat....a bit of shoulder which is only casserole only,even using plain jane cup n core loads you dont loose much..... to be devils advocate here,the 7mm mag is much more gun but for sub 200 yards and deer do you need the extra bang and boot????

if you look into knowledge base you will see the .308 using 110grn vmax is used to head neck shoot fallow and excells in that way....but personally I wouldnt like to have large deer infront of me and need quick shot to anchor it if that was my only load...same goes for 110grn loads in .270 with exception of barnes loads(VERDICT IS STILL OUT ON THEM) varmit type loads in that weight are fine for light stuff but they sure make a mess of meat....I cant see the .25/06 being any different.
27 Jul 2018
@ 06:43 am (GMT)

Thomas Kitchen

Re: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 Yards
Hi Ryan
i have been reading this thread progress with interest.
at first i did think the humble 270 would excel, i use one as a general hack and have found both 150gr interlocks and partitions handloads can give you a real wow factor.
i use to use hornady 130gr whitetail interlock factory loads with success
not sure if its much different to 308 win results though.

anyway after reading that you have been given a 25-06 i had quick google search for prefit 35 whelen barrels for a savage and seems to be plenty of options available if your in the usa, if you decide you want to convert it to ease the boredom.
you can convert it to 7 rem mag to but that requires new bolt head and magazines.
that's the beauty of the savages, i have thought of getting one just to tinker myself.
27 Jul 2018
@ 08:07 am (GMT)

Ryan Nafe

Re: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 Yards
Mike, thanks for the ideas. I think you’re definitely right about bringing shot placement forwards in order to anchor game on the spot. However, in light of the experience I had last year, I will avoid doing that unless the deer is a major trophy in the 150” class or bigger, because the meat damage is just too much to tolerate.

Thomas, you’re thinking along the same lines as I’ve been in the last couple days with regards to the Savage being rebarreled for a new cartridge. The .35 Whelen is very tempting, but if I’m being honest, it’s likely at the very upper limit of recoil for me. I just don’t think it would be a good idea to step up to that level before being 100% proficient with something in the neighborhood of full-power .30-06, 7mm Rem Mag, .270 WSM, etc. I would likely run into problems with accuracy and flinching.

However, I do think I’ve found a solution to this situation and would appreciate input from you guys on if you think I’m on the right track with these ideas:

I could get a new 24”, 25”, or 26” heavy barrel in .30-06 for the Savage, a new stock, bed it myself in accordance with Nathan’s book, and then develop a heavy bullet hand load along the lines of something like this:

Speer 180 grain BTSP at 2,800 - 2,900 FPS.

That bullet at those velocities should remain above 2,600 FPS out to 100 - 150 yards (depending on actual muzzle velocity) for near-instant kills with meat-saver shots, while also being a very good choice for longer range shots. I could learn to shoot that rifle out to the 275 yard mark that spells the end of its fast killing on the deer I shoot, using an 8” steel gong and the local coyote population for practice at the long ranges.

Lots of opportunities for learning/growth/experimentation.


27 Jul 2018
@ 09:44 am (GMT)

Martin Taylor

Re: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 Yards
Lots of good Ideas/thoughts have been offered Ryan and I'm in Bob's camp running the 168 Amax load in 308 or 06 for light/med deer. Haven't faulted them yet on small to med game out to 600 odd yards and larger game with care.
We also have the 168 Interbond loaded in the 06 as l tougher/heavy game close quarters load that shoots exactly the same PIO etc. so dual loading is very uncomplicated for extended shots or change of game size.

With regards to shot placement on deer, do you have the confidence to push your shots even further forward to the base of the neck?
The 308 will excel with its mild recoil with this placement and will anchor without another step. I don't use any other placement given a choice regardless of the calibre l'm carrying.
"Meat saver" rib shots often produce long runs due to compromised placement when things drift/angle a little further back than intended and a lesson we learnt years ago on deer.
27 Jul 2018
@ 10:28 am (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 Yards
Hi Ryan, unless you have an injury or special circumstances, it can be best to put recoil out of your mind and focus on both stock design and technique as per the book series and also some of the videos we have been making. It is really hard to have it both ways. If you want a change in performance, then there needs to be a change in power, embrace it. The 7mm Rem Mag is for example my wife Steph's pet choice. However she has been so sick of recoil emails lately that she is going to put a 7mm Practical together for herself. Steph is also a big fan of the .35 Whelen but over the past couple of years has been using the .358 Norma and really enjoying it.

The Whelen is a very good cartridge, the .30-06 would work but it may not give you the big change you are wanting unless you adopt the heavy loads given in the Cartridges book driven at full velocities. The 180gr Speer at a realistic 2700-2800fps is too close in terminal performance to your current load. There are many good cartridges, but if you are looking for a specific reaction and a significant change in performance, then you will need to make a significant change to your set up.

If you will not aim at the shoulder, then you will need a suitable bullet weight (160 grains minimum), bullet design (neither too soft or too stout) and an exponential increase in velocity (over 3000fps) to see a noticeable change. Or, you could go wide as Thomas said and make use of a 225 Hawk bullet in the Whelen. But also take note that Bobs suggested 168gr load will produce a slight change in performance with your shot placement compared to your current load. But also note that Bob personally prefers the forwards shoulder shot to anchor game fast.

It all depends on how far you want to take this. If you are bored and want to experiment beyond the .308, that's fine. However if you really want a change, then don't sell yourself short. Go the whole distance.

Just as an aside and for the sake of something more unique, I have just uploaded the following to the wound data base. It has nothing to do with this thread other than to highlight the fact that it is fun to explore:

https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/Wound+Database/.375+Cal+-+270gr+Speer+BTSP.html
27 Jul 2018
@ 01:11 pm (GMT)

Bob Mavin

Re: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 Yards
I recovered a 168gn Z-Max yesterday shot with my 308win, it's the second pill I've recovered out of the 800 odd I've fired into mostly Roo's, Pigs, Rusa, Fallow, Goats & a few Red's. It was under the skin of a Goat shot at about 300yds, perfectly mushroomed like you see in the magazines. Love that pill in 308 & 30-06
27 Jul 2018
@ 01:37 pm (GMT)

Bob Mavin

Re: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 Yards
I should have mentioned, the pill I recovered hit the goat on the front point of the shoulder, smashed the shoulder bones travelled full length of the body through the gut, smashed the back leg hip knuckle joint and rested under the skin. Fair effort, out of my 308 traveling at 2760fps 46gns of 2208.

I'm about to pick up my new 308 that my mate built me, on a Remington mod 7 action 25" heavy Hart barrel Ken Noye laminated stock Tract scope will end up around 11-12lbs. I'm 71, a bit of weight will keep me anchored on these hill tops :)
27 Jul 2018
@ 05:25 pm (GMT)

Mike Davis

Re: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 Yards
Ryan...... the last deer I shot (big red hind) was at approx 300 yards,she took a 140 grn hornady plain Jane jobbie from the .270 through the crease going forwards.I left NOTHING but gut skin and bone behind and had 51kgs in my pack...how much meat did I loose???? less than a cup full in total,closer to a tablespoonfull. how far did she go??? about 10 yards.
seriously you cant make an omlet without breaking eggs

if you go bigger/heavier/faster to achieve quicker kills it can ONLY do so by making more mess......think about it.....

you are sitting on a double edged sword/want cake and eat it too



to achieve faster kill you have two options

#1 change point of aim so you take out front wheels or disconnect brain from body...eg neck shot

#2 use different load/cartridge to create bigger wound


either way you are going to loose a bit of meat...as I said earlier its not a huge amount in grand scheme of things,back in bad old meat hunting days you got paid nearly as much for hindquarters cut off at third rib as you did for whole carcase...98% of the steak is in that half,front shoulders are mostly only casserole or mince/burger and you dont loose all of it even with a true broadside that takes them both out.



Sorry Steph if my comment re recoil in 7mm mag was straw that broke camels back for you..... I just cant see a need for more gun for under 200 yards...
28 Jul 2018
@ 12:06 am (GMT)

Ryan Nafe

Re: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 Yards
Alright guys, I’ll take the plunge and make a .35 Whelen. I’m gonna take my time and do this properly though, this can’t be rushed in an attempt to use it this November.

In looking at lead times of various stock and barrel makers yesterday I think it’s feasible that it can be fully built before winter is over and then load development can begin. I’ll give myself the target date of next September to have the rifle completed. I’ll have to retrieve my rifle book from my Uncle’s this weekend.

One quick question, does anyone have any objections to the idea of using a Shilen barrel in a Savage Varmint contour (0.800” at muzzle) and a stock from these guys, the Woodchuck model or possibly the Elk Stalker? The thumbhole design makes follow-up shots a little slower but I don’t think that’s a real concern considering the cartridge in question. The Woodchuck design looks near-perfect because of the straight stock and wide beavertail forend.

http://www.stockadegunstocks.com/3.html
28 Jul 2018
@ 12:41 am (GMT)

Ryan Nafe

Re: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 Yards
Martin, to your question of do I have the confidence to aim for the head/neck junction, the answer is a resounding “yes.”

I’ve never aimed there before, but I almost always aim for a VERY specific spot on the animal such as a shadow line, spot of hair, etc. I don’t think it’s a good idea for people to aim for a general area because that tends to mean a generalized point of impact. So if the animal is stationary and I have a rest to shoot from (probably around 40%-50% chance of that) then I would be fine with aiming there. My rifle is accurate enough for it and I can shoot it well enough also.

I guess it just hasn’t occurred to me because I wasn’t taught to aim for that when I was young and just starting out.
28 Jul 2018
@ 04:23 am (GMT)

Ricardo Laborin

Re: Cartridges for Fast Killing Inside 125 Yards
"For those not familiar with such a set up, this is known as a man's rifle."

Hahahahahahaha
 

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