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> Sierra 30cal 195 TMKs in the 308 and the 30.06 ??
Sierra 30cal 195 TMKs in the 308 and the 30.06 ??
@ 02:16 pm (GMT) |
IainDoes anyone have any idea of likely loads and velocities ?I'm considering giving them a run in a 22" 10" twist 308, but would be interested in trying them in a 26" 11"twist 06 also. I know Sierra recommend minimum 10" twist for the 195 TMK, but who knows ? Has anyone tried them in an 11" twist ? |
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@ 02:22 pm (GMT) |
Iain KempRe: Sierra 30cal 195 TMKs in the 308 and the 30.06 ??Oops ! I've been a lazy bastard and started this thread before googling - Sorry.There is some info on the net, but I would still be interested in any first hand experiences. |
@ 01:40 am (GMT) |
Joshua MayfieldRe: Sierra 30cal 195 TMKs in the 308 and the 30.06 ??Hello Lain, I've just started testing the 195 TMK in my .30-06. It's a 1:10 twist 24" barrel. On my first trip out with it I had 20 rounds loaded with Superformance. I'll list my average velocities for each charge here:54.0 gr - 2580 fps 54.5 gr - 2641 fps 55.0 gr - 2695 fps (only one chrono reading) 55.5 gr - 2711 fps 56.0 gr - 2647 fps (this confused me, but those were the numbers) 56.5 gr - 2805 fps The batch I have loaded for my next range session are charged at 55.5, 55.8, 56.1, and 56.4 gr of Superformance. Naturally, my results may not have any bearing on how the bullets would perform in your rifles, these aren't published loads, so on and etc. It was just one trip to the range and conditions weren't very good. But I never had a group that impressed me in terms of accuracy. I really hope this next trip out that I see some promising groups. I would like to find this bullet accurate enough out of my rifle to use it as a hunting load based on the downrange numbers and Nathan's results in the field as reported in the 2nd edition of the Cartridges book. But I'm not there yet. I'll be glad to share what I find when I do get back to the range. |
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@ 10:02 am (GMT) |
Iain KempRe: Sierra 30cal 195 TMKs in the 308 and the 30.06 ??Thanks Joshua.I have some on order and am inclined to to think that they may work better in the long R700 mag on my 06, rather than the standard length mag on my 308. However the 11" twist on my 06, may, or may not be an issue. My untested thought is that H4350/2209 may be the go in the 06, simply because of the space in the case that will used up by these projectiles. I won't be surprised if they are as long as a 208 ELDM |
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@ 10:06 am (GMT) |
Iain KempRe: Sierra 30cal 195 TMKs in the 308 and the 30.06 ??Sorry Joshua - I forgot to add that there certainly seems to be some inconsistency once your loads exceed 55gn.Perhaps your sweet spot is around or below that 55gn point and no higher ? |
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@ 12:02 pm (GMT) |
Joshua MayfieldRe: Sierra 30cal 195 TMKs in the 308 and the 30.06 ??You may be right about my velocities. I’ve been wondering if I actually out-idioted the idiot-proof Lee scale and mischarged that set. Regardless, the TMK is a lot of bullet but it isn’t as long as the 208 gr. Amax. If I can figure out pic posting I’ll post a comparative shot later. |
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@ 03:00 pm (GMT) |
IainRe: Sierra 30cal 195 TMKs in the 308 and the 30.06 ??Thanks for the length info Joshua. The ELDM is longer than the AMax, so if the 195TMK is shorter than the Amax, the TMK will be worth trying if the ELDM doesn't 100% stabilize in my 30.06 11" twist. |
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@ 04:05 pm (GMT) |
Joshua MayfieldRe: Sierra 30cal 195 TMKs in the 308 and the 30.06 ??
If this photo posts you’ll see a length comparison of what I’ve got laying around. If not, I’ll try a again tomorrow. |
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@ 04:06 pm (GMT) |
Joshua MayfieldRe: Sierra 30cal 195 TMKs in the 308 and the 30.06 ??Nope. Wrong pic. That’s aggravating. |
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@ 05:56 am (GMT) |
Joshua MayfieldRe: Sierra 30cal 195 TMKs in the 308 and the 30.06 ??
Let's try this one more time from a computer as opposed to a cell phone... |
@ 08:32 am (GMT) |
Warwick MarflittRe: Sierra 30cal 195 TMKs in the 308 and the 30.06 ??Joshua. Is that the shadow of looming successOn your photo? Keep at it. Do you follow Nathans suggestion in his reloading book as to using a book to record every load developments loading and double check them? Fast FWD to 10.30 in this video for a reloading lesson ! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=t9HV1332L9A I only roll and use my own ammunition ....... |
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@ 03:53 am (GMT) |
Joshua MayfieldRe: Sierra 30cal 195 TMKs in the 308 and the 30.06 ??"The shadow of looming success..." Let it be so, Warwick. Let it be so.When I am reloading I always have the normal ingredients on the table, plus my own ledger and Nathan's reloading book. I do try to follow his processes. But I do suspect that I screwed up the load on that set of rounds in spite of my best efforts and Nathan's instruction. We'll see what kind of consistency I get on my next range session, but at this point a misstep on my part seems the most reasonable explanation for those velocities. That link does drive home the point, Warwick. |
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@ 10:31 am (GMT) |
IainRe: Sierra 30cal 195 TMKs in the 308 and the 30.06 ??Helpful pic, thanks Joshua. |
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@ 06:32 am (GMT) |
Joshua MayfieldRe: Sierra 30cal 195 TMKs in the 308 and the 30.06 ??Incidentally, I just saw that Hornady has added a 195 ELD-M to their line. Maybe it's old news that I missed. But I can't help wanting to get my hands on one, take the Verniers to it, run it through the old hammer test, set it up next to the TMK for comparison, so on and so forth. Paul Leverman referenced Nathan's "Phantom Fiddler" in another thread. I think Paul chased him off and now he's hot on my trail. |
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@ 09:24 am (GMT) |
IainRe: Sierra 30cal 195 TMKs in the 308 and the 30.06 ??Quote: Incidentally, I just saw that Hornady has added a 195 ELD-M to their line. Maybe it's old news that I missed. But I can't help wanting to get my hands on one, take the Verniers to it, run it through the old hammer test, set it up next to the TMK for comparison, so on and so forth. Paul Leverman referenced Nathan's "Phantom Fiddler" in another thread. I think Paul chased him off and now he's hot on my trail.
Pretty sure that the ELDM will be shorter than the TMK also. This will help if twist is marginal for the TMK |
@ 10:08 am (GMT) |
Andrew MurrayRe: Sierra 30cal 195 TMKs in the 308 and the 30.06 ??Don't worry Iain, me and the fiddler go way back. I have invited him around for some load development. |
@ 01:55 pm (GMT) |
Aaron PetersonRe: Sierra 30cal 195 TMKs in the 308 and the 30.06 ??I have been using the 195gr TMK in my 308 for about a year now. I settled on Winchester brass to give me the most internal volume for squeezing out as much speed as possible. I'm seated to 2.88" COAL (2.162" CBTO) and running Varget (AR2208) for powder.I'm running this load out of a Savage 10 with a factory 24" barrel. Here's the load: Case: Winchester Primer: Federal 210M Powder/Charge: 44.8gr Varget SD- 5fps ES- 10fps MV- 2682fps Five-shot group size at 100 yards- 1/2" Four-shot group size at 710 yards- 5.24" (.71 MOA) I'm at 1,451fps at 1,000 yards with this load, where I live. It goes transonic at about 1150 yards, and subsonic at 1500 yards. I did try Reloder 16 and Reloder 17 with this bullet, and the 208gr ELDM previously, and got around 2600fps, but with 3gr more powder. At 3gr more powder, the load is very compressed and makes consistent seating depth a chore. Varget proved to be a much better choice overall. I took about a 4-5 year old 9-point whitetail deer with it last fall. He was right at 144 yards, walking right for me. I placed the shot dead center chest, and he did a backflip to the ground and never recovered. The bullet shredded both lungs, the top of the heart, and even got part of the liver. It was completely dark by the time I gutted him, so I was unfortunately not able to find and recover any of the bullet, but it did not exit him. I am very pleased with the performance, and will be after more deer with this load next month. I know a couple other guys using TMKs in 308s with great success as well, and have loaded the 160gr TMK in a friend's 7mag. He got 4 deer last year with it. Hope this helps! The TMK is for sure my new favorite hunting bullet, especially for the 308. I'll be using it in my 300 win mag as well, and would definitely use it in a 30-06. |
@ 04:30 pm (GMT) |
Paul LevermanRe: Sierra 30cal 195 TMKs in the 308 and the 30.06 ??Savage 30-'06 (reworked) AccuTriggerFederal Brass CCI #200 LR Primer Hodgdon SuperFormance Hornady 208gr A-Max @ -.020", fair heavy crimp Loads #1 - 3 2741,2699, 2696 Loads #4 - 6 2733, 2714, 2704 Loads #7 - 9 2723, 2732, 2709 Loads #10 - 12 2757, 2718, 2684 Still trying to get the ES down. Somedays are diamonds, some days are stone. |
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@ 10:30 am (GMT) |
IainRe: Sierra 30cal 195 TMKs in the 308 and the 30.06 ??Thanks for the feedback Aaron and Paul.My main game with the 195s will be in a half completed 308, and Aaron's results with 2208/Varget have confirmed my decision to cut the barrel at 24" and not be tempted to go down down the "short and heavy" path. For the LR application, I don't see much point in experimenting with anything except the ADI/Hogdon Extreme powders If can get close to Aaron's numbers, and hopefully a whisker tighter grouping, I will be very happy. I have a Wyatt's box ready to go which should help a bit with seating depth. There is no doubt that the current Savages can certainly shoot !!!! Why am I spending time and money screwing a custom together ? LOL Stonking speed with the 208/Superformance combo Paul, but it sounds like it may not be ideal for LR. I need some good weather to run some loaded 208s through my 11" .06, but not expecting anything over 2600 max. |
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@ 04:48 am (GMT) |
Joshua MayfieldRe: Sierra 30cal 195 TMKs in the 308 and the 30.06 ??I wanted to pass along the results of my last trip to the range with the 195 gr. TMKs. I'm not sure how helpful it'll be - I've got a couple of things I'm processing. One is that I believe I've got what Nathan calls a "slow fouler." I believe I need to tweak some routines accordingly and see if that holds up.I had some double grouping and fliers during the session so naturally, upon returning to the house, I located the section in Nathan's shooting book on that very topic. I've got to tighten up some techniques. I hurried my session a bit and cut a couple corners that resulted in a less than optimal shooting position. After consulting the book I have to say this is the lead suspect for my double groupings and fliers. I had several ragged holes of two and three shots overlapping. But then there'd be another hole an inch or inch and a half away where the other two or three bullets went. So I'm still shooting perfectly acceptable groups for deer hunting out to 200 yards. The problem is that 200 yards is not the goal. Here were my velocities: 55.5 gr. Superformance loads: 2690 2709 2692 2707 2708 This group strung vertically 1.5" 55.8 gr. Superformance loads: 2697 2703 2722 2740 2735 Also strung vertically 1.5" with a flier 1" right. Cleaned the bore 56.1 gr. Superformance loads: 2679 2679 2714 2714 2765 ** I have doubts about this set of readings, naturally Horizontally strung for 2", 1 shot .75" lower than the rest 56.4 gr. Superformance loads: 2707 2773 2754 2768 2770 I had two holes for 5 shots in this group. The two holes were 1.25" apart, horizontally even. I had some "flattish" and one very flat primers in that last group. Given that my velocity gains are not impressive going from 55.5 to 56.4 gr. and that I have pressure signs at the 56.4 mark, I believe I'm going to load up a full batch of twenty rounds at 55.5 and see what focusing closely on technique does for me when I'm not worrying about analyzing different loads. If I can shoot the 55.5 grain charge well and it continues to average out at about 2700 fps, that would give me what I'm after which is a load that would be ethical and effective in the 600 to 800 yard range on game. If I can't tighten up my velocities and get good accuracy then I guess it's all data for the files. As a side note, I do realize that my ES of 19 that I had for that first group of 5 shots is a bad day for a lot of experienced handloaders. For me, that is dramatic improvement and I have to give all credit to Nathan and The Practical Guide to Reloading. Because of the improvement and the understanding I have - due to the book - of what brought the improvement about, I am optimistic that I can tighten things down to under 10 fps as I progress in my technique. |
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@ 06:10 am (GMT) |
Aaron PetersonRe: Sierra 30cal 195 TMKs in the 308 and the 30.06 ??Sounds like a good workup Josh, and hope you get the grouping figured out soon. I have a friend that’s experiencing similar results. He’s only had maybe 100 rounds down his barrel, so I’m sure it’s still building towards copper equilibrium.I actually harvested 2 whitetails this last Saturday with my 195gr TMK load with my 308. My son also got a decent buck- his first deer ever. All three deer were taken at about 55-60 yards, so impact velocity was calculated to be in the 2590fps area. Performance was excellent from the bullet, even at that close of a range. This is definitely my new favorite bullet. I can’t recommend the TMK enough for hunting, or target shooting. This bullet/load is definitely good to any range I could ask for. At 1,000 yards here in Missouri, I’m still at 1450fps. I’ll definitely be taking this load to Idaho on my elk hunt next fall. I will attempt to get pictures and a full report posted on this forum from my hunt this year soon. |
@ 08:27 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Sierra 30cal 195 TMKs in the 308 and the 30.06 ??Joshua, if you get a chance, could you please post your max OAL versus your test OAL (at the bullet tip, not ogive). Magnum or standard primer? Brand of brass?To others, the TMK generates quite a bit of pressure so Joshua's data above is very useful. I suggest that anyone interested in the .30-06 (now or possible future) jot down Josh's OAL and his loads. Jot it down in the back of your reloading journel but make sure you jot down the max OAL as this will tell you whether the throat was shorter or longer than your rifle. If your max OAL is shorter, expect higher pressures. If your brass is different, expect higher pressures. In other words, these notes are merely observations for you to record, not guidelines. Note that I cannot condone any of these loads. The throats on the .30-06 rifles and body specs do vary a great deal. I am not just saying this just to cover my butt (although yes, some butt covering going on), the specs really do vary and Hodgdon do not offer any actual data for SF powder so we are each on our own. I start at 54gr when using the 195-208gr bullet weight in a long throated rifle. But when you look at the data here, you can see there was quite a jump in pressure between 54 and 56. Better to come in at around 2475 to 2500fps and work up. Joshes previous results as follows: 54.0 gr - 2580 fps 54.5 gr - 2641 fps 55.0 gr - 2695 fps (only one chrono reading) 55.5 gr - 2711 fps Had Joshua started at 52 grains, I would have expected 2500fps. As a side note, the new reamers we are making will have quite a unique transition to help ease pressures. Quite exciting. But still, handloaders will need to play it safe. Yes Joshua, better to focus on technique for now than ES. Sometimes folk focus on the wrong things at the wrong times. A guy can chase ES, fiddling around, but his field technique is not settled. In practice, a guy who can shoot in around .3 to .4 under real world field conditions will always do better than the guy who has a low ES but has not solidified field technique. This is something I see on a regular basis, a real theory killer. So yes, keep working on self for now as this will allow meaningful changes to be made quite quickly. Dropping ES right down can be a more tedious affair. In some instances, it may simply not be possible without the very best of equipment such as the AMP annealing machine. The smaller refinements in ES (following basic practices to reduce ES) is the sort of thing we need to work at one step at a time if we choose to and after we have built confidence in other areas. In the mean time, we can use a ballistics program to input 2700fps for example, then input 2720fps, then look at our potential deviation (total vertical group size) in inches. But anyway, this and more is covered in the books. If you get a chance, PM me so we can tie off a few other factors. |
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@ 10:06 am (GMT) |
Joshua MayfieldRe: Sierra 30cal 195 TMKs in the 308 and the 30.06 ??As requested:Max OAL with Sierra 195 gr. TMK is 3.384" The first batch I loaded and posted about way back in August were 3.383" using Remington brass. This more recent batch was 3.382" with Lapua brass. Standard Winchester primers across the board. I also have begun using the Lee Crimp die with these loads and feel slightly more confident in how to use it each time around. It was a new tool to me though. |
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@ 10:30 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Sierra 30cal 195 TMKs in the 308 and the 30.06 ??Thanks Joshua.OK, we can consider that chamber (throat length) as being in the exact middle of the SAAMI min max range. Guys if you are interested in the 06, then jot this down also. So again we can see how data varies. In the space of just two forum threads, we have Todds first barrel at SAAMI max (actually just a shade more), the next under min and now Joshua's which is a mid spec. Easy to see how load data can be misused. |
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