|
|
|
Discussion Forums
Forum Index
> Rifles general discussion
> Accurizing a falling-block rifle
Accurizing a falling-block rifle
@ 04:27 pm (GMT) |
Greg K.Does anyone have any experience accurizing a falling-block rifle? For some reason I have developed a keen interest lately in the falling-block action and have considered getting a single-shot falling-block rifle to mess around with.I'm not sure what kind of hunting I might end up doing with it, but it definitely would not be long range hunting. Mostly I just love the classic look, design, and simplicity and would love to have one to tinker around with. Based on the research I've done the biggest accuracy limitation appears to be the two-piece stock that is typically used on falling-block rifles, so I doubt it would ever be as accurate as a quality, well-accurized bolt-action with its one-piece stock, but I would be happy if it was even close and I think it would be fund to try as a project. There's no way I would pay the nosebleed prices of the really expensive, high-end falling-blocks, but of the reasonably priced production falling-block rifles, the Winchester 1885 High Wall seems to be the best bet for accuracy and overall quality of workmanship. It doesn't seem to have nearly as many problems with the forearm and trigger as the Ruger No. 1 does, so if anyone has experience with the 1885 I'd love to hear about it. Having read Nathan's books and spent a lot of time searching around this site, the only thing I have found regarding falling-blocks was Nathan's comments regarding Ruger possibly discontinuing the No. 1, but not many specifics about falling-block rifles in general. Any falling-block fans out there? |
Replies
|
@ 06:32 am (GMT) |
Greg K.Re: Accurizing a falling-block rifleShortly after posting this I stumbled across the web site of a guy in Texas who specializes in accurizing the 1885, although he focuses mostly on the black powder cartridge versions. He has even written an entire book on the subject. He has numerous articles on his website relating to all things 1885, but the one that caught my attention was specifically about accurizing the 1885, including the modern Winchester version, which is made by Miroku in Japan.http://www.texas-mac.com/Modifying_a_Browning_or_Winchester_1885_to_Improve_Accuracy.html He says that even though Winchester claims that the 1885 barrel is free-floated, that any significant pressure applied to the forearm, such as by hand or sling, will result in some barrel-forearm contact on most models, thus affecting accuracy. Lots of other interesting details are discussed if you're interested in falling-block rifles, particularly the 1885. |
@ 03:34 pm (GMT) |
Mike DavisRe: Accurizing a falling-block riflemy good mate has a Canadian built falling block..stainless steel ,very light. uses a obscure cartridge with .204 ruger its base necked up to 6.5mm he shooting wallabies out to 300 yards last week so its reasonably accurate. he can push loads harder from his bolt action in same cartridge but the rolling block is lighter and neat to use...... |
|
@ 03:42 pm (GMT) |
Greg K.Re: Accurizing a falling-block rifleIt is a neat action for sure. I had high hopes for the possibilities of the 1885, but I have been combing through the single shot rifle forums on 24hourcampfire.com and the American Single Shot Rifle Association (assra.com), and the biggest complaint about the 1885 is that the modern version, built by Miroku for Browning/Winchester, is a very highly "lawyerized" version of the original. More specifically, it has been made much more complex in order to discourage users from gunsmithing them on their own. It's still possible if one finds the right information sources and takes the time to learn it, but the appeal of the falling block to me in the first place was its simplicity and elegance. Apparently just about anyone could disassemble, work on, and reassemble an original with little fuss. So that is pretty much a no go for me, even if they are well made rifles. Definitely a big letdown. I haven't been able to determine yet if the same holds true for other modern falling blocks as well. |
@ 03:08 am (GMT) |
mark korteRe: Accurizing a falling-block rifleHi Greg -I have a Ruger #1 in 7x57 and love it. Previous to this rifle I had a #1 in .280 that I sold to my brother who swears by it. They were never meant to be true long range rifles and are too often unfairly compared to these specialized sorts of guns. There is some tinkering you can do with the fore end and you can add a custom trigger, but in my admittedly limited experience your best bet is to find a shooter and then tinker with the load, not the gun. And then know when to say "too far, must get closer". They are fun to shoot and in the sporter model I have, a joy to carry. You can still find older models for sale that sport beautiful wood and bluing. This I know gains no logic points with the black plastic and stainless crowd, but I for one am happy that this sort of thing is still available. I also have an aquaintance that swears by his 1885 .270. |
|
@ 09:27 am (GMT) |
Gregory KitchenRe: Accurizing a falling-block rifleHi Mike,As I've browsed the internet for falling block rifle info I've definitely found more people who love the No. 1 than those who have given up on it in frustration due to accuracy issues. I suspect I would probably fall somewhere in between, looking for reasonable accuracy (I think I would be ecstatic with 1 MOA), but also loving the simplicity and elegance of it. And while I'm sold on the utility of the synthetic/stainless combo of most bolt actions, it's tough to beat the classic look of wood/bluing, especially on a falling block rifle. I found a comparison that was done between the No. 1 and the 1885 here: http://www.chuckhawks.com/compared_browning1885_rugerNo1.htm where a modification was made to the No. 1 forearm that made it nearly as accurate as the 1885, just shy of 1 MOA, although he still liked the 1885 better for other reasons. As you say, tinkering with the load would probably make even more of a difference, and doing both might even get it to sub-MOA. That would really be something. I've really cooled to the idea of an 1885 at this point given what's been done to the modern version. I just don't like the idea of paying for a product that has been intentionally complicated to discourage me from working on it. It was the simplicity of the falling block action that attracted me to it in the first place. I don't know how complicated the No. 1 action is, but Ruger has videos on their website showing how to disassemble and reassemble it, so they're at least not as antagonistic about people working on their own rifles as Browning/Winchester seem to be. I would love to get my hands on a Dakota Model 10, but they run several thousand USD for even a used model. I also noticed that Ruger has introduced several new models of the No. 1 for 2018 on their website. I don't know if that means they have decided not to discontinue it after all, as Nathan discussed in a thread here last year, or if they're just trying to use up whatever No. 1 parts they have left. There are a couple of curious offerings in the bunch, including a 30-30 Win with a stainless barrel and a 257 Roberts Mannlicher with a stainless barrel. I think a 243 falling block would be a lot of fun to mess around with. Too bad more companies don't make them, but I guess I should just be happy that there are a couple of decent, affordable options to choose from. |
@ 11:17 am (GMT) |
Thomas KitchenRe: Accurizing a falling-block rifleHI gregthere is pendersoli that remake lot of the original style rifles including the falling blocks, not sure it would be the kinder rifle you would want to use and abuse though The ruger no1 use to come in 35Whelen and few other interesting calibers, as much as it's always good to strive for the best accuracy we can get sometimes adopting a caliber that shines at closer ranges can be better if we want to use a rifle design that we know that can be problematic just make sure the rifle has enough heft for the caliber for example if I brought a 7mm rem mag or 300 win mag that I couldn't get below 1moa I would call it's an absolute fail and it would drive me crazy I would happily take a 1-1.5moa Whelen hunting though. A lot of the tricks Nathan uses on Lee Enfields should transfer over to this style of rifle but you'll confirm with him. |
|
@ 04:43 pm (GMT) |
Greg K.Re: Accurizing a falling-block rifleThomas. Thanks for the heads-up about Pendersoli. I was unaware of them. I think I would also be hesitant to take such a rifle into the field and abuse it, but they certainly have a lot of interesting replicas, including some falling blocks.And speaking of the 35 Whelen, Ruger shows one in their current No. 1 lineup. I've never considered using that cartridge, but I can see how that might be a good platform for it. |
|
@ 02:56 am (GMT) |
mark korteRe: Accurizing a falling-block rifleGreg -Here are a couple other forums worth looking at if you decide to go the #1 route. There are a few folks on both that probably have more practical experience with this model than all other #1 owners combined. The older pages of the first one are particularly helpful. http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=4&start=3600 http://rugerforum.net/ruger-single-shot/ I can't speak to how easy these rifles are to tinker with beyond the basics - the kind folks on this forum helped me with loads and that gave me MOA consistently enough to realize the rest was up to me. |
@ 07:42 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Accurizing a falling-block rifleHi Greg, when Dave Manson was here, he introduced me to a gunsmith (by phone) who accurizes the No.1. His methods were quite unexpected in that he welds a solid piece of bar stock to the barrel, dampening the harmonics. I am told his rifles shoot extremely well. I did not want to pry too much into what he is doing as his methods are his discovery and have become a good earner for him. I can obtain the contact details of this smith if you like but do keep in mind that the job is in effect a full rebuild.As Thomas said, it depends on how far one wants to go, expectations and so forth. Tinkering versus full rebuilding. Perhaps a home made de-resonator. The Whelen makes a lot of sense. |
|
@ 10:10 am (GMT) |
Greg K.Re: Accurizing a falling-block rifleMark. Thanks a bunch for the links. I had been focusing mostly on the 1885 up to now so it's good to have a couple of No. 1 resources to go to. I think the biggest question I'll have about the No. 1 is: Even if I can get it to 1 MOA or better on the bench, what happens when I sling it up in a prone or sitting position and start putting more pressure on that fore-end? I'll do some searching on those forums and see what I can find.Nathan. Thanks for the info. That is a curious sounding approach. I've heard of people trying to fully bed bolt-action rifles all the way out the fore-end in an effort to dampen harmonics, I think similar to what Melvin Forbes does at NULA, but that certainly isn't welding anything and I don't know the subject well enough to know if it actually works. At this point I need to do some digging on the No. 1 and then figure out how far down this rabbit hole I want to go. :) I'll let you know if I need the contact info. |
|
@ 03:14 am (GMT) |
mark korteRe: Accurizing a falling-block rifleGreg -You are right - things start to go awry once you leave the safety of the bags. Unfortunately field conditions in many places (at least were I hunt) don't allow for prone shooting off pack/bags. That is where have I to start to scale down on the shots I take based on my situation/rifle/cartridge. And I have always wondered at the effect of the barrel band/sling on my particular model of the #1 (other #1 models don't have this feature to worry about). In the final analysis, in hunting situations on larger game you are not shooting for MOA. You are shooting for the clean kill zone - consistently. MOA off the bags shows you that the rifle can do it consistently under those conditions - that part is a reasonable given. To my mind the only way to see what you can do in the field and away from the bags is to shoot that way and use those results to improve upon and in the end drive your hunting decisions. Anything else is a ballistic Hail Mary. What I have learned on these pages is that no matter the circumstance, consistency is the most import aspect of it all that you can reliably count on once the basic rifle accuracy question is settled. |
|
@ 06:17 am (GMT) |
Greg. K.Re: Accurizing a falling-block rifleMark. Now that you mention it, I notice in looking through the various No. 1 models on the Ruger website that some have a shorter fore-end with the forward sling connection on a barrel band attached directly to the barrel as you described, while others have a longer fore-end with the forward sling connection attached to the fore-end in the more typical fashion. It appears that those with the shorter fore-end and barrel band are the larger calibers like the 308 and 35 Whelen, while those with the longer fore-end with no barrel band are the smaller calibers up to 6.5 Creedmoor. The one exception is the 450 Bushmaster which has the longer fore-end. Slinging up with the barrel band seems like it would wreak havoc with the normal barrel whip, and hence accuracy. I'll have to make a note to ask them why they did that. Overall it seems like a great platform that could use a few modifications by Ruger to generate more interest, which I guess was the precisely the point of Nathan's post about it a year ago now that I read it again. |
|
@ 07:03 am (GMT) |
mark korteRe: Accurizing a falling-block rifleGreg -If you look at older used rifles you will find a wide variety of calibers in the shorter barrel band sporter (1A). While I'm sure that barrel band is an issue, I would assume that sling reefing on a two piece stock is an issue as well. In used guns you can get the longer barreled, heavier (1B) version (no barrel band) in a pretty wide array of calibers up to the various 30's. Some easier to find than others. There is also a heavy barrel(1V) model generally chambered in faster, flatter shooting calibers. In reading others that know far more than me and have followed the #1 for all its years and permutations it would seem that the reason that the #1 is slowly dying has more to do with a younger buying audience that cares more about rapid fire/accessory add-ons and "military" looks than a wood stocked single shot (or bolt) rifle. I'm guessing plastic stocked guns (in addition to whatever their increased worth as a precise shooting tool) are also much cheaper to manufacture. Its just what the public wants right now and Ruger is in business to take advantage of this. I'd look around for a used one in the caliber/model I wanted. The older guns tend to sport better wood/workmanship if that enters into it for you. I don't know if you are in the US, or how it works if you are not, but I'd start here: http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/ruger-rifles-1.cfm?cat_id=350 |
|
@ 10:47 am (GMT) |
Thomas KitchenRe: Accurizing a falling-block rifleBeen looking at few images of the no1It's interesting where most single shots tend to hang forend off the barrel itself it shows that the forend is attached to lack of a better term a shaft that holds few of the springs under the barrel. So trying to fully understand accuracy issues is it the shaft is to small so flexes allowing forend to touch barrel or is it the stress on the action having unsupported barrel hanging off it Cheers |
|
@ 12:13 pm (GMT) |
Greg K.Re: Accurizing a falling-block rifleMost of the reading I've done indicates that it's the flexing of the fore-end due to the thin hanger structure that supports it, that causes the problem, resulting in contact with the barrel, but I need to look into that some more. The 1885 has a much more robust hanger supporting the fore-end, but apparently still has occasional issues.I'm in the U.S. so there are plenty of sources for the No. 1 here, both new and used. I noticed in checking new No. 1 prices that they have been increased substantially just this year. Apparently there was quite an unloading sale of new No. 1's by multiple dealers late last year in the 900 USD range. Now most new models are around 1500 USD or more street price. I have a feeling I'll be taking Mark's suggestion and looking through the used ads. I'm going to spend some time digging through these No. 1 forums first though before I decide how to proceed. Thanks for the observations and suggestions. |
|
@ 02:27 am (GMT) |
mark korteRe: Accurizing a falling-block rifleI think what most people are after with a fore end fix is constant contact with the for end/barrel at the tip of the fore end or the hanger. I have seen an aftermarket add-on called a "Hicks Accurizer" (sold by Brownell's I think) as well as a set screw placed thru the fore end that contacts the barrel and is adjusted upwards until the desired accuracy is achieved and the cheapest (and best of all!) - a small shim of inner tube rubber (or brass or aluminum) between the barrel and for end at the tip. This last (understandably) is the most popular and by all accounts seems to work. I have also seen some bedding done at the point where the fore end meets the receiver. I haven't tried any of them since just finding the right load worked for what I needed.If you go with an on line used gun make sure its a reputable dealer that offers a 3 day inspection/return policy. I have purchased several this way and ended up returning one for a full refund. No hitches. |
|
@ 10:41 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Accurizing a falling-block rifleHi Thomas, it can be either depending on the model (or custom builds). Its a tough call too because if a long and heavy barrel is used, it can sag without support but if a light barrel is used, it can whip under high pressure. Then there are the actual issues of the bore and throat vs mass production. A guy can think he is chasing harmonic issues when the bore is the problem.Harmonic issues with banded rifles are easy enough to isolate but can be hard to fix. As a very simple example, if you run a .270 about 400fps below its upper node, it will shoot and group all day. But as you load up, you can see the harmonic changes. Any accuracy work can never really be called an all around fix but instead, tuning to the individual load. It is at its worst when you set up a rifle for a client with the bedding tension, barrel band and load all working together, then a few months later the client decides to change ammo and the system falls over. A good friend of mine had it right when he ran a heavy 30 cal frangible A-MAX (ELD-M) slowly, not chasing the upper node, relying on the bullet design to get the job done. The gun runs at the same speed as an SMLE ball load but shoots better than half the chop shop tactical rifles I see. |
|
@ 11:04 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Accurizing a falling-block rifleGreg, you are quite right about the thin hanger. When I spoke to the smith doing the alterations, I was expecting that he was making a larger hanger. But instead, he had found that the welded rectangle removed the need to fully float the barrel. Heat treatment / temper would be a key factor here. Outside of this approach, if Ruger could redesign the hanger, it would help a great deal to iron out issues. |
|
@ 04:02 pm (GMT) |
Greg K.Re: Accurizing a falling-block rifleAt this point I can tell that I am trying to over mastermind things by reading. I think it's my science/research side getting the best of me. :) I'm still new enough to this game that isolating all the variables involved is hard enough as it is when I'm actually doing it. So I think the thing for me to do now is to just look for a decent platform at a reasonable price and start tinkering. Thanks for the insights and suggestions. I think I have a good base to work with. |
@ 09:31 pm (GMT) |
Arve RingsbyeRe: Accurizing a falling-block rifleI recently bought a used no 1. This is a no 1A sporter in 3006, with the red butt cap, made from Ruger back in the 80ties. It has beautiful wood and I had been looking for such a used rifle for a while. It went straight to the gunsmith, and the old barrel was replaced with a new lothar walther barrel in 6,5-06, 1/8 twist, 25 inches long, chrome moly. The forearm is now freefloated by floating the hanger only. The trigger where adjusted a bit and the action and all steel parts where given new bluing. The original scope rail was kept and replaced and fitted to the new barrel. The smith just got a new reamer for the 6,5-06 and i think my rifle was the third chamber done with it.I got the rifle back from the smith only three weeks ago and just barely tested it with some norma 30/06 brass, which where full length siced with a rcbs die in 6,5-06, loaded with 48 gr of H4831sc and fed 210, and nosler 140 gr bt. I made 20 rounds and after getting it on paper with the first 8, i fired 4 three shot groups, all of them well under 25 mm, with the best group beeing 18 mm. I didnt bring my chrony for this initial testing. But I will for my next test, this time with the same 20 rounds of brass, necksiced, 10 rounds with fed 215 and 10 with fed 210, otherwise same amount op powder and same bullet, same coal. The 140 gr bt is ment to be my training session bullet for this rifle. The hunting bullet I will probably setle for will either be the 129gr lrab, or the 142 gr lrab og the 143 gr eldx, powders either the H4831sc or the vithavouri N560. Its not ment to serve as a long range rifle, but rather a hunting rig for deer, roedeer and caribou, and if its shows up to be consistent, I'll be pleased to place it as a competent rifle out to 5-600 m. Some things is already for sure, its a joy to shoot, carry and rest my eyes on! |
|
@ 09:41 pm (GMT) |
Arve RingsbyeRe: Accurizing a falling-block rifleCorrection, should read; the barrel is now freefloated by bedding the hanger only |
|
@ 07:19 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Accurizing a falling-block rifleWell put Greg.Glad to hear your project has gone well Arve. |
@ 01:36 am (GMT) |
john reidRe: Accurizing a falling-block rifleCheck out this book: Accurizing The Factory Rifle by M. L. McPherson. It has a lot of very interesting info about single shot rifles. |
|
@ 03:51 pm (GMT) |
Greg K.Re: Accurizing a falling-block rifleThank you for the book reference. It's $95 USD on Amazon right now. I'll have to look around and see if I can find it cheaper anywhere else. |
@ 05:59 pm (GMT) |
John SmithRe: Accurizing a falling-block rifleI have two Ruger No. 1A's. One in 7x57 the other in 6.5x55. For betteraccuracy I tinkered with the round not the rifle. Both rifles have given me one shot kills on deer and elk. All under 200 yards. They are a joy to carry, shoot and admire. |
Please wait
ABOUT USWe are a small, family run business, based out of Taranaki, New Zealand, who specialize in cartridge research and testing, and rifle accurizing.
|
KNOWLEDGEBASE |
KNOWLEDGEBASE |